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Post by disciple4life on Nov 5, 2021 14:59:36 GMT -6
mike Not sure which version you used for this quote: All that Rev 9:18-20 means is that up to this point where 1/3 of mankind has been killed, the remaining people haven't repented. It doesn't mean that they can't change their mind in the future. It's just up to that point. At the point of Rev 9:18-20, we haven't see the mark of the beast yet, nor the image of the beast. How do I know this? Rev 9:20 " which can neither see nor hear nor walk;" Why is this important? When the beast arrives after being brought back from death (after the AoD), he creates an image that speaks and even reports on folks that don't worship the beast ... per Rev 13:15. This means that the remaining 2/3 of the same people from Rev 9:18-20 have the ability to now change their minds to the point of being tattled on by said "image of the Beast" which can now see and talk and observe folks not worshiping it. If it's not possible for people to change their minds after 1/3 of the population, why then is it written that the image that speaks needs to even turn folks in? What's the point of Rev 13:12-18 ? If everyone is on the resurrected beast's side of the game... then there is no reason to even need the image to tattle. They are all already lost. No need for the mark either. No point. , I think i'm tracking with you, and agree with most everything. The big issue is that NO ONE knows, is when on the timeline of the 70th week, do the seals take place, how much time does each one take and how much time is there between each one. Is there a 2 month pause, between the 1st and 2nd? ◄ Revelation 9:18 ► Context 18A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths. 19For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with them they do harm. 20The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk; ** It's not the beast or the image, that can't see or hear or walk, it's the idols, of gold, silver, brass, stone and wood. [The phrase immediately follows that which it describes. ] 21and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts. Also, no one knows when in the same chronological timeline, this verse happens - specifically, the 1/3 of mankind being killed. - We know for sure that the entire time will be terrible. - That's why it's the Tribulation, and not the Picnic. It's the Time of Jacob's Trouble, not Jacob's Birthday Extravaganza. - We also know from scripture, that people will be trying to kill the 2 witnesses, and they don't die. They will be breathing fire and speaking judgment. We also have the 144,000 Jewish witnesses, who are sharing the Gospel, and you are spot on - there would be no point, if people cannot come to Christ, and we also have the angels, which fly over the whole entire earth, preaching the Gospel. What many people forget is that as findtruth and @natalie have said, - the 7th week is started with the " Strengthening" or improving/ammendment of a covenant, by the AC, so he is already on the scene, gathering power and forcing people to worship him. It won't be anything Normal or peaceful. There will be growing rules and ever increasing enforcement, food shortages, fuel shortages, punishment, and consolidation of power. Just think of the current horrific extreme penalties in Australia, the lockdowns, and one of the former Soviet block states - I think Lithuania - there are already covid passports for everything - all shops, all restaurants, even gyms and hair salons, and supermarkets. Imagine this plus government surveilance and the tens of thousands of cameras Like all over England an China, monitoring people's behavior. - We also know that some people will come to faith in the Tribulation because we see the saints - and they are the ones who come to faith during the tribulation. - We also know that they are not the same ones Paul is referring to because the Dead in Christ are resurrected, and all those living Christians are instantly caught up together with Christ - in the clouds, not the same event as the second coming. Not only are these not the same Greek words, but I and others have pointed out that the descriptions are not even compatible. Day of the Lord is described over 40 times in the Old Testament by 10 writers that span over 600 years. Never once is it described as glorious, wonderful, positive or blessed. Scripture says that every eye will see Christ at his second coming, and it's a series of events, Christ comes back on horses with his saints, and all the earth will look on him and mourn. No horses in the rapture, and it's a millisecond. Not possible for anyone to see that. The resurrection and rapture happens at the Last Trumpet, a known event to all the hearers of Paul, an it's the Glorious hope. The Wedding of the Messiah, is NOT the same as the day cities are plundered and women are raped, and which is likened to being chased by a bear and then bitten by a snake when you get home.  We know that it will be the end of the Time of the Gentiles, so it's likely that as you said, the HS will be here, but not staying continually. The promise of the HS as a comforter, was to the saints in the current Church age, or age of the Gentiles. I think it was mike who mentioned that it could be that the HS works in a different way, when the time of the Gentiles is over, and then the focus is on the Jews and those who missed the rapture. The Saints in the Old Testament were counted righteous by their faith before the Cross, - **notice that this was a different dispensation - and a different way that God interacted with his people in history. It seems that the thing that makes the most sense is that the restraining force is not the HS, because he's omnipresent, and his role in salvation is essential, - that the restraining force is the church- which is God's people acting as salt and light. Hmmmm. The 3 1/2 years timeframe are 2 fold. 1. For the 2 witnesses to preach, along with the 144,000 witnesses, and the angels to fly over the whole earth to share the everlasting Gospel. and 2. It is 3 1/2 years from the Fall feasts to the Spring feasts, and also 3 1/2 years [6 month intervals] from the Spring feasts to the fall feasts. It's not coincidence at all that the exact day count - 1260 days fits perfectly, going from Feast of trumpets, 2022 to Unleavened bread, 2026 , and then, just think about it for a second --- exactly 1290 days - the same exact day count given in Daniel, from Unleavened Bread, to Day of Atonement, [Second Coming] 2029. It's also not coincidence at all that there are 4 Old Testament passages that explicitly link the Moedim [Appointed times/ Feasts] to end times events. Maranatha. |
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Post by venge on Nov 5, 2021 15:00:29 GMT -6
uscgvet - I simply quoted what scripture tells us. It says no one repents after the 6th trumpet. So its possible some come to salvation before this but as I wrote and quoted, it doesnt seem so. Many pre-trib theories say the two witnesses come at the beginning of week 70. That may be very well accurate, but the response from those who dwell on the earth is give gifts to each other once they are killed. Doesnt sound like a trib saint would do that. These two are killed by the beast from the bottomless pit (who arrives at trumpet 5, but cannot harm those with the seal of God on their forehead). Once this monster arrives on the scene it cant harm those who are sealed. According to the last post by findtruth the rapture has already occurred (outset of week 70) and the ones sealed with the Holy Spirit are removed. This seems like another contradiction to me, but I could be incorrect for sure. Point with the witnesses is if they arrive at the outset of week 70, and the beast from the abyss is likely the AC then he would have to kill them shortly after he arrives or the same('ish) day (as the AoD). But just maybe they witness for 3.5 years are killed and there is a 3 day hiatus, then the other 3.5 years starts. If they do witness in the first 3.5 maybe many are saved before the 6th trumpet...I am inclined the removal comes after seal 5 before seal 6, so I see the possibility but am somewhat doubtful based on the text. Regarding the MotB, again I see your point, but the text says they go to the lake of fire. So how do you reconcile that Christians will take the mark? I mean if am presented with the option to take the mark and worship the beast and his image or guillotine, I like to say that I would take death now behind the keyboard but in that time I dont know how I would react. I only hope that the Lord give me the strength and grace to endure that. I think what you quote is applicable to me, you, believers right now who go into the Great Trib. Mike, this is responding to you, just going off your quote above. Over and over were told that no one repents. Where are these tribulation saints who receive the gospel if no one repents? The only time we see in all of this, that men give glory to God is at the end of the 2nd woe: The 4th Trumpet ends and we are told there will be 3 woes: After the 5th trumpet, 1 woe is passed. The 2nd woe must finish BEFORE the 7th trumpet, placing it ending after the 6th Trumpet. If the 2nd woe ends Before the 7th trumpet and at the end of the 6th Trumpet, then the 2 witnesses finish their testimony of preaching at that time. That would mean their testimony lasted from that end date of the 7th trumpet backwards 42 months. But the 7th trumpet heralds that the Kingdom of the world are Christ and he is about to reign marking the Messianic Kingdom and the end of the current age and the beginning of his 1k year reign. That would imply the 2 witnesses finish their testimony at the latter half of the week during AC reign which also is in the latter half when Christ comes back. So where are the tribulation saints that get saved yet no one repents or gives glory until the 2nd woe is over and the 2 witnesses enemies see them go upward to heaven? Now, how many times Ive heard someone write, thats eisegesis. Look, the idols that see not and hear not is all throughout scripture denoting false idols made by men. If anything, that image resembles Nebuchadnezzars image. Where anyone who didnt bow to it, worship it and such was killed. The idea is that the image doesnt literally speak as Nebuchadnezzar's didnt. But it still had a false power because of what it reminded the people it was and they had to be obedient to it. The image serves as the head of state or the state itself in the form of an image and represents that conduct, its citizens, the ruling leadership, the hierarchy or government. Disobeying it is like disobeying the King himself. This is not mystic magic. Look at Daniel's early chapters. If something not alive is given breathe, it means it holds power as if it were alive or could even speak. In Bible times, the image of Caesar held huge sway. That image was given breathe and could speak too. People would kiss it to symbolize their fealty. Failure to give alms to it, bow to it or other things was like not doing it to ceasar himself and would get you killed. |
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 5, 2021 15:44:34 GMT -6
uscgvet - I simply quoted what scripture tells us. It says no one repents after the 6th trumpet. So its possible some come to salvation before this but as I wrote and quoted, it doesnt seem so. Many pre-trib theories say the two witnesses come at the beginning of week 70. That may be very well accurate, but the response from those who dwell on the earth is give gifts to each other once they are killed. Doesnt sound like a trib saint would do that. These two are killed by the beast from the bottomless pit (who arrives at trumpet 5, but cannot harm those with the seal of God on their forehead). Once this monster arrives on the scene it cant harm those who are sealed. According to the last post by findtruth the rapture has already occurred (outset of week 70) and the ones sealed with the Holy Spirit are removed. This seems like another contradiction to me, but I could be incorrect for sure. Point with the witnesses is if they arrive at the outset of week 70, and the beast from the abyss is likely the AC then he would have to kill them shortly after he arrives or the same('ish) day (as the AoD). But just maybe they witness for 3.5 years are killed and there is a 3 day hiatus, then the other 3.5 years starts. If they do witness in the first 3.5 maybe many are saved before the 6th trumpet...I am inclined the removal comes after seal 5 before seal 6, so I see the possibility but am somewhat doubtful based on the text. Regarding the MotB, again I see your point, but the text says they go to the lake of fire. So how do you reconcile that Christians will take the mark? I mean if am presented with the option to take the mark and worship the beast and his image or guillotine, I like to say that I would take death now behind the keyboard but in that time I dont know how I would react. I only hope that the Lord give me the strength and grace to endure that. I think what you quote is applicable to me, you, believers right now who go into the Great Trib. Mike, this is responding to you, just going off your quote above. Over and over were told that no one repents. Where are these tribulation saints who receive the gospel if no one repents? The only time we see in all of this, that men give glory to God is at the end of the 2nd woe: The 4th Trumpet ends and we are told there will be 3 woes: Venge said "After the 5th trumpet, 1 woe is passed. The 2nd woe must finish BEFORE the 7th trumpet, placing it ending after the 6th Trumpet. If the 2nd woe ends Before the 7th trumpet and at the end of the 6th Trumpet, then the 2 witnesses finish their testimony of preaching at that time. That would mean their testimony lasted from that end date of the 7th trumpet backwards 42 months." There are no chapter markings in the post above, so it's not clear. Also, no passage states where on the timeline that these things happen in relation to the whole 7 year span.
As i mentioned to uscgvet - Revel 9:18-20 mentions 1/3 of the people being killed, and the rest not repenting, but this could be in the 4th year, or just after the midpoint, when the AC makes the Abomination of desolation.
Also, the angels are proclaiming the gospel, the 144, 000 Jewish witnesses are proclaiming the gospel, and the 2 witnesses are proclaiming the Gospel.
What's the point of all the witnesses, and the entire concept of taking the Mark or refusing to take the mark if no one can repent. It's like Calvinism in the Tribulation.
- We Know from scripture that the unbelieving Jews will be saved - They are not going in the rapture, and their eyes will be opened in the time of Jacob's trouble - likely when the resurrection happens when they believe it will happen - at the Last Trumpet, which Paul explicitly stated happens at the resurrection. 
Also doesn't make sense that if the church IS Israel, then how does Israel become saved?? This is one of the biggest problems in replacement theology.
But the 7th trumpet heralds that the Kingdom of the world are Christ and he is about to reign marking the Messianic Kingdom and the end of the current age and the beginning of his 1k year reign.
That would imply the 2 witnesses finish their testimony at the latter half of the week during AC reign which also is in the latter half when Christ comes back. So where are the tribulation saints that get saved yet no one repents or gives glory until the 2nd woe is over and the 2 witnesses enemies see them go upward to heaven? Where does it say anywhere that the 2nd woe happens in the first half, or where does it say the timing of the 2nd woe in relation to the Harpazo, and in relation to the entire 7 year period??
It's fine to speculate, and we all have opinions, but there's no scripture that says clearly that the 4th woe or 6th seal happens in the 5th year, or at the midpoint, or in relation to the rapture.
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Post by findtruth on Nov 5, 2021 15:51:38 GMT -6
the beginning of the church age ,started on the day of Pentecost in acts 2. The church age will end at the signing of the peace covenant with the antichrist, Israel and the many nations. There has been over a 2000 year gap of time between the 69th and 70th week shown in the book of Daniel.
On the day of Pentecost the holy spirit came down and indwelt believers in the church age which we are currently in at this time in history. Basically, the The prophetic clock will restart at the signing of the peace treaty with the antichrist Israel and the many nations . This is what will start the 70th week ( tribulation period) , as shown in Daniel. In other words, this final week of the seven-year tribulation has yet to be fulfilled.
The abomination of desolation shown in Matthew 24, the antichrist breaks the covenant with Israel . At this point the great tribulation , remaining 3 1/2 years, will start.
As for the two witnesses the ministry starts at the beginning of the tribulation and they are killed, and resurrection at the middle of the 3 1/2 year mark.
As for the sealing of the Holy Spirit, I personally do not believe that believers will be sealed with the Holy Spirit during the tribulation time , however this point can be debated. It will be reverted back to like old testament times as stated earlier in the thread.
One point I want to make as it’s always salvation by faith alone and not of works throughout the old in the New Testament.
The tribulation saints will be saved based on whether they take the mark of the beast or die for their faith. Deception will be wide during this time and many people will take the mark but others will refuse and will be saved during this time. Many will have a choice whether they want to take the mark or die for their faith.
The overcomers (, tribulation saints), are saved by the blood of Christ for salvation alone. Salvation after the rapture is based on belief and faith in Jesus and his work on the cross and not of their own works
There will be only two groups of people on earth . the Unbelievers are the ones who reject the Lord and refuse to call and the Lord to be saved. They try to trust on their own works instead of the Christ finish work on the cross.
The believers trust in Christ alone and the work that he has done and are saved by faith alone.
Hope my view makes sense.
Lisa
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Nov 5, 2021 16:58:38 GMT -6
I have a question for the group. Could it be possible that there is a gap of time between the 3 1/2 year periods mentioned in revelation and Daniel in regards to the 7 year tribulation period? Or is it consecutive? For example: there has been a gap of time between the 69 th and 70th weeks shown in Daniel. Also, there is speculation that the 7 year tribulation starts with the signing of the covenant and not at the rapture. I appreciate your thoughts. I have been studying and praying for wisdom. Lisa Hello sister Lisa or findtruth...... No, there will not be a gap between the 70th weeks first half and second half, that is why there is an exact midpoint called by God the 1260. Everything in the end times is anchored to this 1260 midway point where Israel gets conquered (as does all of the Mediterranean Sea Region nations). Thus the 1260,1290 and 1335 explains all of the end times unto us. It is three separate events that all happen an exact number of days before all these wonders (things Daniel were shown in Dan. 11:36-45 and even into Dan. 12:1-2) end, meaning that Jesus' Second Coming ends all of these wonders. The 1335 thus happens first, the 1290 next and the 1260 happens last, the 1335 happens 45 days before the 1290 and 75 days before the 1260 event, which we know is the Anti-Christ conquering Israel, so the 1290 event can not be the Anti-Christ, it is the False Prophet, who like Jason, a Jewish High Priest (real name Yeshua) under Antiochus will betray his fellow Jewish brothers. As per the other sign post so to speak, we do not know for sure that the going forth to build the cities wall and the starting point of the 62 weeks had a gap or not, it very well might have, because it was not ne prophesy, but three distinct prophesies, with THREE MARKERS, The Wall..........The Messiah's Death and the Agreement (Covenant) with Israel AND the MANY [Nations] in the region. Its not just Israel who signs an Agreement, it is the whole region, most overlook that salient point, it is nit emphasized because the bible is about Israel, but it is mentioned in three places. Dan. 8:25 he DESTROYS MANY by peace. Dan. 9:27 he makes an Agreement with MANY. Dan. 11:40-43, he enters into MANY COUNTRIES, including Israel, and he continues and conquers all of North Africa. P.S. I do personally think the first 69 weeks were continual, but it was still about two different prophesies, the difference is Israel was being JUDGED, then God says they are as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years, and after the Rapture, the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled, thus Israel's 70th week Judgment is back in play (just clarifying). |
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 5, 2021 18:09:42 GMT -6
Now, how many times Ive heard someone write, thats eisegesis. Look, the idols that see not and hear not is all throughout scripture denoting false idols made by men. If anything, that image resembles Nebuchadnezzars image. Where anyone who didnt bow to it, worship it and such was killed. The idea is that the image doesnt literally speak as Nebuchadnezzar's didnt. But it still had a false power because of what it reminded the people it was and they had to be obedient to it. The image serves as the head of state or the state itself in the form of an image and represents that conduct, its citizens, the ruling leadership, the hierarchy or government. Disobeying it is like disobeying the King himself. This is not mystic magic. Look at Daniel's early chapters. If something not alive is given breathe, it means it holds power as if it were alive or could even speak. In Bible times, the image of Caesar held huge sway. That image was given breathe and could speak too. People would kiss it to symbolize their fealty. Failure to give alms to it, bow to it or other things was like not doing it to ceasar himself and would get you killed. , In Daniel 3, the statue that Neb created only had the requirement that people worship it when the people heard music played. In Daniel 4, Neb praised the signs and wonders shown to him through Daniel and his 3 friends. Neb said: You're telling me that Neb was just "passing his authority along" and that the signs and wonders from Daniel telling Neb his dream, and then translating it... and after seeing his friends thrown into the 7x hotter furnace with a 4th person who looked like the Son of Man... that was just Spiritual in a since. It was a moral story to make a point. Daniels friends were just put into a 7x hotter fire of Nebby's heart. And Nebby was just enlightened by good warm feelings when he felt the warmth of what could be claimed as the 4th person as God... It didn't actually happen in real life the way it was written. That the mighty wonders with Daniel and his 3 friends was not real in a physical since... it wasn't really mystic magic ? ---------- And in Revelation 13... This too was just "head of state" representation of authority, not really real in a physical since, not mystic magic? So, none of this was as Nebuchadnezzar said of Daniel 3:2 "I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.3 How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders!" ? Just all fluff and wind? It really was just Spiritual feelings and warm attitudes? Not signs and mighty wonders...? |
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 5, 2021 20:29:15 GMT -6
I have a question for the group. Could it be possible that there is a gap of time between the 3 1/2 year periods mentioned in revelation and Daniel in regards to the 7 year tribulation period? Or is it consecutive? For example: there has been a gap of time between the 69 th and 70th weeks shown in Daniel. Also, there is speculation that the 7 year tribulation starts with the signing of the covenant and not at the rapture. I appreciate your thoughts. I have been studying and praying for wisdom. Lisa Hello sister Lisa or findtruth...... No, there will not be a gap between the 70th weeks first half and second half, that is why there is an exact midpoint called by God the 1260. Everything in the end times is anchored to this 1260 midway point where Israel gets conquered (as does all of the Mediterranean Sea Region nations). Thus the 1260,1290 and 1335 explains all of the end times unto us. It is three separate events that all happen an exact number of days before all these wonders (things Daniel were shown in Dan. 11:36-45 and even into Dan. 12:1-2) end, meaning that Jesus' Second Coming ends all of these wonders. the 1335 thus happens first, the 1290 next and the 1260 happens last, the 1335 happens 45 days before the 1290 and 75 days before the 1260 event, which we know is the Anti-Christ conquering Israel, so the 1290 event can not be the Anti-Christ, it is the False Prophet, who like Jason, a Jewish High Priest (real name Yeshua) under Antiochus will betray his fellow Jewish brothers. As per the other sign post so to speak, we do not know for sure that the going forth to build the cities wall and the starting point of the 62 weeks had a gap or not, it very well might have, because it was not ne prophesy, but three distinct prophesies, with THREE MARKERS, The Wall..........The Messiah's Death and the Agreement (Covenant) with Israel AND the MANY [Nations] in the region. Its not just Israel who signs an Agreement, it is the whole region, most overlook that salient point, it is nit emphasized because the bible is about Israel, but it is mentioned in three places. Dan. 8:25 he DESTROYS MANY by peace. Dan. 9:27 he makes an Agreement with MANY. Dan. 11:40-43, he enters into MANY COUNTRIES, including Israel, and he continues and conquers all of North Africa. Hello rondonmonson, Welcome to the Party, bro. ;-) OK, so I'll bite on what you're throwing out. heheh.  I'm with you for the first paragraph. I totally agree that the 1260, 1290, 2550 and 1335 numbers of the day counts are the key pieces to the end-times, and I've laid out why and how they fit and are significant. I'm particularly curious, why you see this part - "the 1335 thus happens first, the 1290 next and the 1260 happens last, - the 1335 happens 45 days before the 1290 and 75 days before the 1260 event, which we know is the Anti-Christ conquering Israel, so the 1290 event can not be the Anti-Christ, it is the False Prophet, who like Jason, a Jewish High Priest (real name Yeshua) under Antiochus will betray his fellow Jewish brothers." I understand the numbers, and i've explained how they land perfectly on Jewish feasts, but I've seen it in a different order. Can you explain why you see the 1335 happens first, and is the trigger or catalyst that sets the clock in motion the rapture/Harpazo, or something else. ? ? What is your starting date of the 1335 and what is the significance of the end date. Please don't think or feel i'm grilling you.  I'm a firm believer in these numbers, but haven't seen anyone else ever give any reason as to why they are significant and how they fit, or the order. Can you please give us scripture, or your source for this theory? ? Also, @ron, why do you say the 1335 event happens 45 days before the 1290?? Do you mean 1335 starts the clock ticking, and then 45 days in, the 1260 starts and overlaps, runs side-by-side along with the 1335. What are these events? What is the basis for you saying " We know that the 1260 event is the AC Conquering Israel.?? Where is this in scripture? Blessings, Disciple4life. |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Nov 5, 2021 20:48:34 GMT -6
Was going to just edit my post to answer your second point/question but decided to just make a new one... Looking at verse 27, "he" makes a covenant for a "week". That seems to say that the covenant starts the 70th week. I don't think there are any verses that say the rapture kicks off the 70th week. Hello findtruth , welcome to the forum. It's nice to have other watchmen and women join us. ;-) Well said, @natalie. Scripture is clear that the 70th week is in fact a 7 year period. All the "70 weeks of Daniel" are 70 prophetic weeks, of 7 years each. There is a fantastic article that address this exact topic, and here's an excerpt. www.dailyadvocate.com/2021/06/18/the-70-weeks-and-israel/As with almost all end-times events and topics, there are many different "views" and different perspectives, but some things are very clear in scripture that we are told and it's not a huge mystery or enigma to be solved. We just look at what scripture says and when it seems to make literal sense, seek no other sense or it will be nonsense. "Daniel 9:24 states, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgressions, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”
When do the 70 weeks begin? They already have. Verse 25 gives the starting of the clock — it starts with the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem. This event occurs in Nehemiah 2 — King Artaxerxes proclaims to have Jerusalem restored. That is March 445 BC.
If you are thinking, “Seventy weeks that began in 445 BC; that has to be long over by now!” From history and the rest of the prophecy, we learn that these are weeks of years. In other words, seven years equals one week. Also, God inserted a time-out that stopped the clock.
Verse 25 speaks of seven weeks. The first seven weeks are the 49 years that it took to rebuild Jerusalem. After rebuilding Jerusalem, there would be another 62 weeks (434 years) before the next event. The 69 weeks (7 + 62), or 483 years, end with the Messiah being cut off (Daniel 9:26). More specifically, the 69 weeks end with the crucifixion of Christ.
Using the Hebrew calendar instead of ours (remember the timeline centers around the Jews, Israel, and Jerusalem; not us), the 69 weeks run from March 445 BC to AD April 32. This date is the date Jesus is crucified — the Messiah has been cut off.
Now you may be thinking, “OK, so the 70 weeks ended sometime in AD 39.” However, in Daniel 9:27, we discover that the 70th week does not start until the signing of a covenant with the Antichrist. (Confirming what @natalie wrote above.) We are now waiting for the great time out to end and the clock to start ticking on the last seven years, the 70th week. When the covenant is made with the Antichrist to protect Israel, Israel is rejecting God’s protecting arm. This action creates the covenant with death, and the time of Jacob’s trouble begins."
Hello D4L, I am going to split this answer into sections in order to help us understand what we are going over in each section. I pretty much agree 100 percent with everything above, great presentation, I don't however think this "Covenant" which simply means "Agreement in Hebrew" is a covenant with death per se, Israel is already dead, God only revived them, or brought them back into Israel for His names sake, He clearly says so, and that was because of His promise unto Abraham. So, Israel, although they have been revived and "flesh and sinew" are now on those dead men's bones, they have yet to be quickened, and that happens according to Zechariah 13:8-9 (1/3 of the Jews/Israel repents just before the coming Day of the Lord (DOTL) which we see in the very next verse (Zech. 14:1). So, even though this is called Jacob's Troubles, that is only because the Old Testament and New Testament somewhat, are mainly about Israel and the Jewish peoples, but if we pay close attention, we can see its also about THE MANY also, in Dan. 8:25 we see the Anti-Christ destroys MANY by peace, in Dan. 9;27 he makes Agreements with MANY and reneges during the middle of the 70th week. We can see who the MANY are in Dan. 11:40-43, this Gentile King (from the E.U.) will make Agreements with all the nations in the Mediterranean Sea Region, and then attack them all at once. It says he enters into THE COUNTRIES in Dan. 11:40-43, and he conquers Israel, and all of North Africa. He is after all a Beast that arises from the [Mediterranean] Sea like all of the other Daniel Beasts. I truly think most everyone just misses THE MANY references about the whole region being conquered, not just Israel, yes, its Jacob's trouble because the bible is about Israel, not THE MANY per se. This ties in to how I ended the reply above, but we must remember, yes it is Jacobs Troubles, but that is only because the bible has Israel and the Jewish peoples as its main focus, not because others do no also go through troubles, this tyrant wack job Anti-Christ will kill 1/4 of mankind, or 1.5 to 2 billion peoples after the rapture, so MANY PEOPLES will have troubles, but the bible simply emphasizes Israel's troubles, in most cases. We agree in full here..... I skipped the other point and will come back to it next as it ties in better this way. You are a rare guy that understands this, most simply don't look at it like this, but a root word study of GABAR (confirm) shows he acts insolently, and STRONG ARMS an already agreed to agreement onto them, after he twists and tweaks this agreement to suit his desires, thus he makes Israel REAFIRM this agreement with his added on tweaks, and he does so insolently, and with a strong armed approach. Now, as per this being tied to the Pope/RCC, the U.N. or even the Abraham Accords (which are actually of God, I can explain why later) that is Satan doing the ole head fake brother. These "Agreements are already in place", as you assumed they would be before the A.C. came to power. But it is not just with Israel, it is with Israel and THE MANY !! See the European Neighborhood Policy Link Below: HERE: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Neighbourhood_PolicyThe above link shows that the European Union currently has 7 Year Agreements (2007-2013 and 2014-2020) with Israel, Jordan, Syria. Lebanon, Egypt, Algeria, Morocco, Libya and Tunisia, and they currently have these nations on the dole, passing out 15 billion Euros (Satan knows how to use the carrot and stick approach), but that money is not going to be how they get Israel to give up their nukes, which they must do (that's the peace part AND the force of will used by the coming Anti-Christ). After Russia, Turkey and Iran get destroyed by God, that opens this mans path up. He will step in and tell Israel, that they will have to either give up their Nukes and we (the E.U.) will be your protector, like the USA is via Hawaii, or we are going to stop trading with you, we will isolate you, we will stop allowing you to travel to the E.U. and he will even threaten to kick them out of the Euros where they play Futbal/Soccer. He will place all this pressure on them, and then he will say, BUT........If you do give up your Nukes, we (E.U.) will not only protect you, but Israel can become a member of the European Union (Israel so badly wants this, and have for awhile), and thus they will fall for this and give up their Nukes. These Agreements are already in place, Israel are a party to the Anti-Christs FRAMEWORK via the E.U. as we can see via the European Neighborhood Policy Agreements, but so are THE MANY (Mediterranean Sea Nations) who he will also conquer, as Dan. 11:40-43 shows us. Forget the Pope brother, Dan. 8:9 shows this man can only be born in Greece and has to come to power out of the Fourth Beast (Dan.7:7-8), thus he will be a Gentile King just like the others. So, why did I reply to this after the above reply? Because the above gives us the direction this Anti-Christ is coming from. It also shows that he can not be the one who "stands in the temple" at the 1290 event. That event happens 30 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem/Israel at the 1260 event, which is 30 days later. Basically no one gets close to understanding this. But as I was doing an Exegesis on Daniel 11 I realized Daniel 10, 11 and 12 were all one vision, so I explained EVERY King, and how he came to power in Daniel 11, and all the palace intrigue, and by doing this God rewarded me with an understanding of the 1260, 1290 and 1335. I understood that Antiochus was not only the TYPE Anti-Christ but he had a TYPE False Prophet under him also, a man named Jason (real name Yeshua) who bribed Antiochus in order to be named the Jewish High Priest, thereby having his real brother, a Pious High Priest named Onias III killed. Jason (Greek name he took) welcomed Antiochus into the temple to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus, he then tried to force Hellenization onto the Jews leading unto the Maccabean Revolt. So, just like Antiochus had Jason, the end time Anti-Christ will also have a Jewish High Priest who "HE CAUSES" to stop the Sacrifice and he gets to PLACE the AoD at the 1290, which is 30 days before the 1260. Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, The 1260, 1290 and 1335 are the key to understanding all end time eschatology. NOTICE, in verse 6 the Angel asks Jesus (Man in Linen) "HOW LONG UNTIL ALL THESE WONDERS END (Things Daniel was shown about the End Time Anti-Christ in Dan. 11:36-45 and even in Dan. 12:1-2), and Jesus then swears by God the Father that from the time Israel is conquered (Dan. 11:40-43) until all these wonders end, it will be 1260 days (Time, Times and Half time) and then all those wonders would be over, (via Jesus' Second Coming of course we now know). Thus when Daniel in verse 8 asks the EXACT SAME QUESTION that the Angel did in verse 6, why do we think Jesus is giving us a different type of symbolism or symmetry? He's not, every number Jesus gives us is juxtaposed against the Second Coming ending all of these wonders, thus the 1290 "Event" is 1290 days until ALL THESE WONDERS END and the 1335 is 1335 days until ALL THESE WONDERS END. The question clearly should give us this understanding. Dan. 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? (WHAT ENDS THESE THINGS)SAME EXACT QUESTION THE ANGEL ASKED IN VERSE 6
Dan. 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?Thus the 1290 can not be the Anti-Christ who only Conquers Jerusalem/Israel/THE MANY at the 1260, which is 30 days after the 1290 event. Thus the 1290 is the False Prophet, and a proper reading of Rev. 13 tells us this, it says he (F.P.) gets them to make an IMAGE (AoD) of the Beast and tells everyone they must worship this IMAGE (AoD) or die, and in Matt.24:15-17 Jesus never says it is a man, he tells the Jews when you see that which ought not to stand in the Holy place, flee Judea and don't look back. So, if this Anti-Christ/Beast had already conquered Israel does it make sense he would just allow them to flee Judea? Does it make sense God would give the Jews a WARNING SIGN after they had been conquered? But if the False Prophet takes away the Sacrifice AND places the AoD then the Jews would have 30 days to flee the 275 miles unto the Petra/Bozrah area where they will be protected by God for 1260 days. That makes much more sense, and fits all the scriptures to a tee. But how do the Jews know to flee Judea? They come unto Christ BEFORE the 1260 (DOTL) as both Malachi 4:5-6 and Zechariah 13:8-9 shows us. Meaning of course they start worshiping Jesus after the Two-witnesses (who are the 1335 Event) show up (Elijah shows up BEFORE the DOTL says Malachi 4:5) and thus 3-5 million Jews who repent start showing up at the Temple worshiping Jesus and this irate Jewish High Priest then FORBIDS Jesus Worship (takes away the Sacrifice) and places the AoD. Th 1335 = Two Witnesses who show up 1335 days before the Second Coming [ends all these wonders] The 1290 = the False Prophet who Forbids Jesus Worship and places the AoD 1290 days BEFORE the Second Coming. The 1260 = the Anti-Christ Conquering Jerusalem/Israel/the Jews and THE MANY [Nations]. That pretty much sums it all up. The 1260, 1290 and 1335 are the key to understanding all end time prophecy. I know its pretty heavy stuff, but its all true, I checked and rechecked all the facts (try the spirits) and everything fits like a glove. I even questioned if the Two-witnesses timeline would fit, LOL, and it fit like a glove to a hand, WATCH. The Beast has a 1260 day ordained OFFICE on this earth right? and so do the Two-witnesses, so they both have to serve 1260 day ordained offices on this earth !! Which means if one DIES before the other one DIES then whichever one dies first must thus also have to SHOW UP FIRST. The Two-witnesses DIE at the 2nd Woe (Rev. 11) the Beast doesn't die until the 7th Vial,(Rev. 16:19) so the Two-witnesses must indeed show up BEFORE the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast at the 1260, like 75 days before at the 1335 !! God Bless. |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
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Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Nov 5, 2021 21:07:40 GMT -6
Hello sister Lisa or findtruth...... No, there will not be a gap between the 70th weeks first half and second half, that is why there is an exact midpoint called by God the 1260. Everything in the end times is anchored to this 1260 midway point where Israel gets conquered (as does all of the Mediterranean Sea Region nations). Thus the 1260,1290 and 1335 explains all of the end times unto us. It is three separate events that all happen an exact number of days before all these wonders (things Daniel were shown in Dan. 11:36-45 and even into Dan. 12:1-2) end, meaning that Jesus' Second Coming ends all of these wonders. the 1335 thus happens first, the 1290 next and the 1260 happens last, the 1335 happens 45 days before the 1290 and 75 days before the 1260 event, which we know is the Anti-Christ conquering Israel, so the 1290 event can not be the Anti-Christ, it is the False Prophet, who like Jason, a Jewish High Priest (real name Yeshua) under Antiochus will betray his fellow Jewish brothers. As per the other sign post so to speak, we do not know for sure that the going forth to build the cities wall and the starting point of the 62 weeks had a gap or not, it very well might have, because it was not ne prophesy, but three distinct prophesies, with THREE MARKERS, The Wall..........The Messiah's Death and the Agreement (Covenant) with Israel AND the MANY [Nations] in the region. Its not just Israel who signs an Agreement, it is the whole region, most overlook that salient point, it is nit emphasized because the bible is about Israel, but it is mentioned in three places. Dan. 8:25 he DESTROYS MANY by peace. Dan. 9:27 he makes an Agreement with MANY. Dan. 11:40-43, he enters into MANY COUNTRIES, including Israel, and he continues and conquers all of North Africa. Hello rondonmonson , Welcome to the Party, bro. ;-) OK, so I'll bite on what you're throwing out. heheh. I'm with you for the first paragraph. I totally agree that the 1260, 1290, 2550 and 1335 numbers of the day counts are the key pieces to the end-times, and I've laid out why and how they fit and are significant. I'm particularly curious, why you see this part - "the 1335 thus happens first, the 1290 next and the 1260 happens last, - the 1335 happens 45 days before the 1290 and 75 days before the 1260 event, which we know is the Anti-Christ conquering Israel, so the 1290 event can not be the Anti-Christ, it is the False Prophet, who like Jason, a Jewish High Priest (real name Yeshua) under Antiochus will betray his fellow Jewish brothers." I understand the numbers, and i've explained how they land perfectly on Jewish feasts, but I've seen it in a different order. Can you explain why you see the 1335 happens first, and is the trigger or catalyst that sets the clock in motion the rapture/Harpazo, or something else. ? ? What is your starting date of the 1335 and what is the significance of the end date. Please don't think or feel i'm grilling you. I'm a firm believer in these numbers, but haven't seen anyone else ever give any reason as to why they are significant and how they fit, or the order. Can you please give us scripture, or your source for this theory? ? Also, @ron, why do you say the 1335 event happens 45 days before the 1290?? Do you mean 1335 starts the clock ticking, and then 45 days in, the 1260 starts and overlaps, runs side-by-side along with the 1335. What are these events? What is the basis for you saying " We know that the 1260 event is the AC Conquering Israel.?? Where is this in scripture? Blessings, Disciple4life. I explained this in the above post, so over an hour or so, and between meals I made this post not realizing you has replied unto me, so this should answer all of that and then some. By the way, I welcome grilling, back and forth teaches us new things every day. Daniel 12:7 is Jesus (Man in Linen) explaining HOW LONG all these events Daniel saw would last. Dan. 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be (THESE WONDERS SHALL END) for a time, times, and an half(1260 DAYS); and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. It basically says this, Jesus swears that all these wonders the Angel asked him about, WILL END, 1260 days from the time Israel (holy peoples) is conquered (till the second coming). So, who ends all these WONDERS (Anti-Christ's actions Daniel saw in Dan; 11:36-45 ? ) Jesus does, he locks up Satan, places the Anti-Christ and False Prophet in hellfire, and sets up his 1000 year reign in Israel, glory to God. Amen. |
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 6, 2021 7:29:07 GMT -6
rondonmonson, I'm sorry that I didn't phrase my question more clearly. I do that too often. You said the 1335 is first, Then after 45 days is the 1260 event. What I and others are wondering, what is the starting event or trigger that starts the clock? Is it the rapture and is it a random surprise event? You said, "the 1335 thus happens first, the 1290 next and the 1260 happens last," so 1335 + 1290 + 1260 = 3885 ÷ [360, 1 prophetic year]= 10.79 years. Hmmm 🤔 What is the significance of the 45 day count? Did you mean the 1335 days finish, then 45 days pass? and what are the 75 days you mention before the 1290 days? Cheers. Disciple4life
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Post by venge on Nov 6, 2021 7:29:21 GMT -6
Now, how many times Ive heard someone write, thats eisegesis. Look, the idols that see not and hear not is all throughout scripture denoting false idols made by men. If anything, that image resembles Nebuchadnezzars image. Where anyone who didnt bow to it, worship it and such was killed. The idea is that the image doesnt literally speak as Nebuchadnezzar's didnt. But it still had a false power because of what it reminded the people it was and they had to be obedient to it. The image serves as the head of state or the state itself in the form of an image and represents that conduct, its citizens, the ruling leadership, the hierarchy or government. Disobeying it is like disobeying the King himself. This is not mystic magic. Look at Daniel's early chapters. If something not alive is given breathe, it means it holds power as if it were alive or could even speak. In Bible times, the image of Caesar held huge sway. That image was given breathe and could speak too. People would kiss it to symbolize their fealty. Failure to give alms to it, bow to it or other things was like not doing it to ceasar himself and would get you killed. , In Daniel 3, the statue that Neb created only had the requirement that people worship it when the people heard music played. In Daniel 4, Neb praised the signs and wonders shown to him through Daniel and his 3 friends. Neb said: You're telling me that Neb was just "passing his authority along" and that the signs and wonders from Daniel telling Neb his dream, and then translating it... and after seeing his friends thrown into the 7x hotter furnace with a 4th person who looked like the Son of Man... that was just Spiritual in a since. It was a moral story to make a point. -----By that statement, you didnt understand my point
Daniels friends were just put into a 7x hotter fire of Nebby's heart. And Nebby was just enlightened by good warm feelings when he felt the warmth of what could be claimed as the 4th person as God... It didn't actually happen in real life the way it was written. That the mighty wonders with Daniel and his 3 friends was not real in a physical since... it wasn't really mystic magic ? --Huh? Who said that event didnt happen?---------- And in Revelation 13... This too was just "head of state" representation of authority, not really real in a physical since, not mystic magic? -- Argumentative for the sake of arguing. If you want to talk about prophecy, and limit yourself from the only "right" answer, let me know and we can do that. If you want to invent things like they are magic, I'm not interested. So, none of this was as Nebuchadnezzar said of Daniel 3:2 "I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.3 How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders!" ? Just all fluff and wind? It really was just Spiritual feelings and warm attitudes? Not signs and mighty wonders...? --Your arrogance is unbecoming and lacking the things the body needs. If you misunderstand what I was saying, instead of an arrogant approach, just ask "Venge, can you explain these parts because its sounds like you are saying....." Rather then a condescending attitude.
Idols are talked about all throughout scripture. In each case, we are told they see not and hear not yet the people go after them though they are made with men's hands and cannot save them. I think it is a rash judgment to take that and immediately apply it to the "image" in Revelation in the way you did (which to me, looks outside of scripture). Daniel's statue, that Nebuchadnezzar set up, is one historical part that serves as something we can look to further understand the "image" in Revelation. That doesn't mean its solely based upon it. I only gave some possible thoughts on the matter, not "my way is the only way". We also know from history, representations of "images" by various rulers in authority played a part in those kingdoms and how that affected the local population. You are talking about a literal image made by man physically talking. I don't see that as any type of possibility nor do most commentators. If you think it's only literal, then we have to apply that same logic to everything else: the dragon, the locusts, the stars (not meteorites), the sea (oceans) drying up and being gone forever, the key given to the angel of the bottom pit, the wormwood is a literal plant that infects the waters and John really eats the book from the angel in Rev 10. If we apply a strictly literal stance to a "vision", the 144k are required to be virgins in order to be redeemed. Rather, let us look at what is said and see what God has said before on the subject where we fight spiritual battles with the sword of truth...Not just that, God said he is the ONLY God, and all these idols see not, hear not. Therefore, this idol cannot see or hear and do anything because God has said so multiple times. That didn't stop the Jews who left their first love from worshipping false gods that didn't need to speak. |
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Post by mike on Nov 6, 2021 8:10:16 GMT -6
uscgvet - on page 3 regarding Rev 9:18 - the rest of mankind doesnt repent...Can you show me where the scripture says they do repent? I only find that they celebrate evil, and do not change their ways. Jesus preached to many, so did Paul and the prophets & apostles. You do it, I do it too yet how many continue to reject the truth? The prophets were killed, the apostles, the two witnesses - did some repent? yes. Did the vast majority? Nope. The 144k, the angel Rev 14:9 simply display that God desires all men to be saved and won't give up until the very end. But trying doesnt equate to repentance, so please show me what I'm missing.
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Nov 6, 2021 9:45:49 GMT -6
rondonmonson , I'm sorry that I didn't phrase my question more clearly. I do that too often. You said the 1335 is first, Then after 45 days is the 1260 event. What I and others are wondering, what is the starting event or trigger that starts the clock? Is it the rapture and is it a random surprise event? You said, "the 1335 thus happens first, the 1290 next and the 1260 happens last," so 1335 + 1290 + 1260 = 3885 ÷ [360, 1 prophetic year]= 10.79 years. Hmmm 🤔 What is the significance of the 45 day count? Did you mean the 1335 days finish, then 45 days pass? and what are the 75 days you mention before the 1290 days? Cheers. Disciple4life I detail this 5 posts above, but I don't mind doing it again in an abbreviated manner. They key is understanding WHAT ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS to start with, and to do so you have to understand WHAT WONDERS are being spoken of. In Daniel 11:36-45, and even in Dan. 12:1-2 we see THOSE WONDERS. Thus in Dan. 12:6 when the Angel asks Jesus (Man in Linen) How long will it be until all these wonders (Dan. 11:36-45) end, Jesus tells him it will end in a Time, Times and half[time] or 1260 days AFTER the Holy peoples (Israel) have been conquered (power taken away). So, all we have to do is figure out what it is that ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS, and that is not very difficult, the Second Coming of Jesus will end the Anti-Christs rule on this earth and he will lock up Satan in the bottomless pit. So, all three numbers are JUXTAPOSED against the Second Coming ending all these wonders Daniel was shown. So, in Daniel 12:8 we see Daniel asks the exact same question, WHAT WILL BE THE END OF THESE THINGS (things Daniel saw in the vision, Dan. 11:36-45). Thus Jesus tells him to go his way, he will not at this time be given any clear understanding, then Jesus gives Daniel two more DIFFERENT CLUES via dates that are also a set number of days away from the Second Coming. You see, the numbers are all how many days away from these WONDERS/EVENTS or VISIONS Daniel saw ending, once these events start. Its not 1260 days PLUS 1290 days PLUS 1335 day. Instead it is about three different events juxtaposed against the Second Coming, one event starts 1335 days BEFORE the Second coming, the next event starts 1290 days BEFORE the Second Coming and the 3rd Event starts 1260 days BEFORE the Second Coming. So, the 1335 happens 45 days before the 1290 and 75 days before the 1260, and the 1290 happens 30 days before the 1260. Now all we have to do is figure out what these events are, which I have already done. 1335 is the 2 Witnesses showing up to turn Israel back unto God BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord (which is the 1260) as Malachi 4:5 says. 1290 is the False Prophet forbidding Jesus Worship (taking away the Sacrifice) and placing the AoD (Image of the Beast) in the temple of God 1290 days before the Second Coming. 1260 = the Anti-Christ going forth to Conquer 1260 days BEFORE the Second Coming, thus he rules for 1260 days before Jesus shows up to end his rule. So, why was John given the False Prophet understanding, but Daniel was only given a NUMBER (1290) instead? I indeed asked myself that question, and I got a very quick answer, OF COURSE I thought to myself. Daniel could not have been told about a coming False Prophet who would eventually betray his peoples, because for the next 500 years or so every other Jewish High Priest would have been a suspect, and possibly killed, after all King Herod via the holy scriptures tried to kill baby Jesus, so God only gave Daniel the 1290 number for a reason, He cloaked the truth in full from him for a reason. By the time John was given the book of Revelation Prophecy Jerusalem/Israel had already been sacked by Rome, thus it didn't matter, the Jewish people had been dispersed the world over. He could thus be given John the understanding of the End Time False Prophet. Most everyone is confused by this, God blessed me because I never stop until I get an answer. God Bless. |
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Post by yardstick on Nov 6, 2021 10:39:29 GMT -6
At the start of the 7 years ,after the rapture, the restrainer will be removed ( Holy Spirit ) he resides in every believer on earth. . Because of this fact, the evil will prevail on the earth as never before. The peace and life as normal will not be like before the rapture. The peace I was referring to before is the false peace that the antichrist makes with Israel and the nations. However, there is a difference in scripture between the start of the 7 years and the 2nd , 3 1/2 years which is called the great tribulation where Gods wrath will be poured out. God desires people to repent and turn back to Him. The first seal starts with the strengthening of the covenant. The other seals will follow . The second half is the great tribulation and the first half is the start of the 70th week , JACOB’s trouble dealing with Israel. I hope I am making myself clear. I am all over the place. Anyhow, revelation mentions a silence in heaven for a half hour. I take this as meaning before the start of the great tribulation which is far worse than the start ( first 3 1/2 years) I’m not sure about the time frames of when the seals, trumpets and bowls fall in the time frames but isn’t it interesting that there is silence in heaven for a half hour? Maybe a gap? Thoughts?? If the restrainer is the HS and it removes at the start of a 7 year period: How do tribulation saints get saved because that requires the HS (comforter) to be in them and to seal them? As you said it was a fact, I'd love to hear a response. The answer may be in that we have taken an overly broad intepretation of 2 Thes 6-8: it is very possible that the Holy Spirit is performing a dual function: 1. Restraining Lawlessness/the Man of Lawlessness 2. Acting in the salvation process There is nothing overt in the above passage that says that the Holy Spirit will be removed from acting in the second capacity. Only the first. venge, uscgvet, mike, stormyknight, |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Nov 6, 2021 11:59:32 GMT -6
If the restrainer is the HS and it removes at the start of a 7 year period: How do tribulation saints get saved because that requires the HS (comforter) to be in them and to seal them? As you said it was a fact, I'd love to hear a response. The answer may be in that we have taken an overly broad intepretation of 2 Thes 6-8: it is very possible that the Holy Spirit is performing a dual function: 1. Restraining Lawlessness/the Man of Lawlessness 2. Acting in the salvation process There is nothing overt in the above passage that says that the Holy Spirit will be removed from acting in the second capacity. Only the first. venge , uscgvet , mike , stormyknight , Correct. You had me looking for 2 Thess. 6, for a second until I realized it was 2 Thess . 2:6-8, which is what I thought to start with. 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Its more like unto a "Roadblock Barrier" being moved to one side, (taken out of the way) which doesn't mean the Barrier went anywhere, it was just moved aside. Likewise the Holy Spirit not having the Church to protect and work through after the Rapture, will simply move aside and allow the Man of Sin to go forth, he doesn't leave this earth, we see the Holy Spirit during the 70th week, 1/3 of the Jews come unto Christ and many Gentiles come unto Christ also. IMHO, the Mortal Wound is delivered unto Rome by the Church who the Gates of Hell could not overcome, after the Rapture, the Beast goes forth as before the Church was established. The word used for letteth means binds. So he who binds will bind until he is taken out of the way, not removed from the earth, but until he stops blocking this man from coming forth. That my 2 cents anyway. |
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I'm with you for the first paragraph. I totally agree that the 1260, 1290, 2550 and 1335 numbers of the day counts are the key pieces to the end-times, and I've laid out why and how they fit and are significant. 
I'm a firm believer in these numbers, but haven't seen anyone else ever give any reason as to why they are significant and how they fit, or the order. Can you please give us scripture, or your source for this theory? ? 
