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Post by uscgvet on Nov 6, 2021 16:47:40 GMT -6
venge , In Daniel 3, the statue that Neb created only had the requirement that people worship it when the people heard music played. In Daniel 4, Neb praised the signs and wonders shown to him through Daniel and his 3 friends. Neb said: You're telling me that Neb was just "passing his authority along" and that the signs and wonders from Daniel telling Neb his dream, and then translating it... and after seeing his friends thrown into the 7x hotter furnace with a 4th person who looked like the Son of Man... that was just Spiritual in a since. It was a moral story to make a point. -----By that statement, you didnt understand my point
Daniels friends were just put into a 7x hotter fire of Nebby's heart. And Nebby was just enlightened by good warm feelings when he felt the warmth of what could be claimed as the 4th person as God... It didn't actually happen in real life the way it was written. That the mighty wonders with Daniel and his 3 friends was not real in a physical since... it wasn't really mystic magic ? --Huh? Who said that event didnt happen?---------- And in Revelation 13... This too was just "head of state" representation of authority, not really real in a physical since, not mystic magic? -- Argumentative for the sake of arguing. If you want to talk about prophecy, and limit yourself from the only "right" answer, let me know and we can do that. If you want to invent things like they are magic, I'm not interested. So, none of this was as Nebuchadnezzar said of Daniel 3:2 "I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.3 How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders!" ? Just all fluff and wind? It really was just Spiritual feelings and warm attitudes? Not signs and mighty wonders...? --Your arrogance is unbecoming and lacking the things the body needs. If you misunderstand what I was saying, instead of an arrogant approach, just ask "Venge, can you explain these parts because its sounds like you are saying....." Rather then a condescending attitude.
Idols are talked about all throughout scripture. In each case, we are told they see not and hear not yet the people go after them though they are made with men's hands and cannot save them. I think it is a rash judgment to take that and immediately apply it to the "image" in Revelation in the way you did (which to me, looks outside of scripture). Daniel's statue, that Nebuchadnezzar set up, is one historical part that serves as something we can look to further understand the "image" in Revelation. That doesn't mean its solely based upon it. I only gave some possible thoughts on the matter, not "my way is the only way". We also know from history, representations of "images" by various rulers in authority played a part in those kingdoms and how that affected the local population. You are talking about a literal image made by man physically talking. I don't see that as any type of possibility nor do most commentators. If you think it's only literal, then we have to apply that same logic to everything else: the dragon, the locusts, the stars (not meteorites), the sea (oceans) drying up and being gone forever, the key given to the angel of the bottom pit, the wormwood is a literal plant that infects the waters and John really eats the book from the angel in Rev 10. If we apply a strictly literal stance to a "vision", the 144k are required to be virgins in order to be redeemed. Rather, let us look at what is said and see what God has said before on the subject where we fight spiritual battles with the sword of truth...Not just that, God said he is the ONLY God, and all these idols see not, hear not. Therefore, this idol cannot see or hear and do anything because God has said so multiple times. That didn't stop the Jews who left their first love from worshipping false gods that didn't need to speak. ---------- What I see is that The MoB, the IoB, the threat of death for not worship... this is all a mirror from the events that transpired between Daniel + his 3 friends with Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar even wrote a testimony admitting he witnessed miracles as Daniel chapter 4. The wording between Revelation 13 and Daniel are quite similar. Why believe Daniel to be physical and real but the Revelation from Jesus to John to not result in the future to be physical and real? When Revelation 13 says great wonders and signs like calling fire down from heaven or making a statue seem to have life, why the inconsistency? Why believe Daniel to be true as written but not John when they are describing similar things? Miracles... (Yes, I understand what John is seeing is in a vision, so there are symbols and imagery, but that imagery will translate to physical, flesh and blood observable events ) |
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 6, 2021 17:05:44 GMT -6
uscgvet - on page 3 regarding Rev 9:18 - the rest of mankind doesnt repent...Can you show me where the scripture says they do repent? I only find that they celebrate evil, and do not change their ways. Jesus preached to many, so did Paul and the prophets & apostles. You do it, I do it too yet how many continue to reject the truth? The prophets were killed, the apostles, the two witnesses - did some repent? yes. Did the vast majority? Nope. The 144k, the angel Rev 14:9 simply display that God desires all men to be saved and won't give up until the very end. But trying doesnt equate to repentance, so please show me what I'm missing. I'm thinking on this one... An example that I can think of that confirms your thesis is all of the plagues against the Egyptians and the Egyptians chasing after Moses and the Israelites across the Red sea. None of them survived (aka repented) after all of the other judgements. It's possible that nobody repents after the 1/3 population dies. But, it just doesn't make since with the MoB and IoB, or the angel making the verbal announcment to the world to not take the MoB or worship the IoB. Why would they even be necessary if nobody will be able to make that change of mind? Why is the threat of death there? |
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Post by yardstick on Nov 6, 2021 19:45:57 GMT -6
rondonmonson , I'm sorry that I didn't phrase my question more clearly. I do that too often. You said the 1335 is first, Then after 45 days is the 1260 event. What I and others are wondering, what is the starting event or trigger that starts the clock? Is it the rapture and is it a random surprise event? You said, "the 1335 thus happens first, the 1290 next and the 1260 happens last," so 1335 + 1290 + 1260 = 3885 ÷ [360, 1 prophetic year]= 10.79 years. Hmmm 🤔 What is the significance of the 45 day count? Did you mean the 1335 days finish, then 45 days pass? and what are the 75 days you mention before the 1290 days? Cheers. Disciple4life D4L, I think Ron means this:  ![]() |
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Post by yardstick on Nov 6, 2021 19:55:40 GMT -6
uscgvet - on page 3 regarding Rev 9:18 - the rest of mankind doesnt repent...Can you show me where the scripture says they do repent? I only find that they celebrate evil, and do not change their ways. Jesus preached to many, so did Paul and the prophets & apostles. You do it, I do it too yet how many continue to reject the truth? The prophets were killed, the apostles, the two witnesses - did some repent? yes. Did the vast majority? Nope. The 144k, the angel Rev 14:9 simply display that God desires all men to be saved and won't give up until the very end. But trying doesnt equate to repentance, so please show me what I'm missing. I'm thinking on this one... An example that I can think of that confirms your thesis is all of the plagues against the Egyptians and the Egyptians chasing after Moses and the Israelites across the Red sea. None of them survived (aka repented) after all of the other judgements. It's possible that nobody repents after the 1/3 population dies. But, it just doesn't make since with the MoB and IoB, or the angel making the verbal announcment to the world to not take the MoB or worship the IoB. Why would they even be necessary if nobody will be able to make that change of mind? Why is the threat of death there? Can we assume that prior to the 1/3 dying, that all the trib saints have already been martyred? If they have it makes for an easy explanation as to why no one repents. Also, that the 1/3 even has to occur after the AoD because Rev 12 indicates that the dragon goes after 'her other children' since he cannot get to the israelis. I would imagine he makes short work of the believers who get saved after the harpazo. |
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Post by pesachpup on Nov 6, 2021 21:11:55 GMT -6
mike Not sure which version you used for this quote: All that Rev 9:18-20 means is that up to this point where 1/3 of mankind has been killed, the remaining people haven't repented. It doesn't mean that they can't change their mind in the future. It's just up to that point. At the point of Rev 9:18-20, we haven't see the mark of the beast yet, nor the image of the beast. How do I know this? Rev 9:20 " which can neither see nor hear nor walk;" Why is this important? When the beast arrives after being brought back from death (after the AoD), he creates an image that speaks and even reports on folks that don't worship the beast ... per Rev 13:15. This means that the remaining 2/3 of the same people from Rev 9:18-20 have the ability to now change their minds to the point of being tattled on by said "image of the Beast" which can now see and talk and observe folks not worshiping it. If it's not possible for people to change their minds after 1/3 of the population, why then is it written that the image that speaks needs to even turn folks in? What's the point of Rev 13:12-18 ? If everyone is on the resurrected beast's side of the game... then there is no reason to even need the image to tattle. They are all already lost. No need for the mark either. No point. , I think i'm tracking with you, and agree with most everything. The big issue is that NO ONE knows, is when on the timeline of the 70th week, do the seals take place, how much time does each one take and how much time is there between each one. Is there a 2 month pause, between the 1st and 2nd? ◄ Revelation 9:18 ► Context 18A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths. 19For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with them they do harm. 20The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk; ** It's not the beast or the image, that can't see or hear or walk, it's the idols, of gold, silver, brass, stone and wood. [The phrase immediately follows that which it describes. ] 21and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts. Also, no one knows when in the same chronological timeline, this verse happens - specifically, the 1/3 of mankind being killed. - We know for sure that the entire time will be terrible. - That's why it's the Tribulation, and not the Picnic. It's the Time of Jacob's Trouble, not Jacob's Birthday Extravaganza. - We also know from scripture, that people will be trying to kill the 2 witnesses, and they don't die. They will be breathing fire and speaking judgment. We also have the 144,000 Jewish witnesses, who are sharing the Gospel, and you are spot on - there would be no point, if people cannot come to Christ, and we also have the angels, which fly over the whole entire earth, preaching the Gospel. What many people forget is that as findtruth and @natalie have said, - the 7th week is started with the " Strengthening" or improving/ammendment of a covenant, by the AC, so he is already on the scene, gathering power and forcing people to worship him. It won't be anything Normal or peaceful. There will be growing rules and ever increasing enforcement, food shortages, fuel shortages, punishment, and consolidation of power. Just think of the current horrific extreme penalties in Australia, the lockdowns, and one of the former Soviet block states - I think Lithuania - there are already covid passports for everything - all shops, all restaurants, even gyms and hair salons, and supermarkets. Imagine this plus government surveilance and the tens of thousands of cameras Like all over England an China, monitoring people's behavior. - We also know that some people will come to faith in the Tribulation because we see the saints - and they are the ones who come to faith during the tribulation. - We also know that they are not the same ones Paul is referring to because the Dead in Christ are resurrected, and all those living Christians are instantly caught up together with Christ - in the clouds, not the same event as the second coming. Not only are these not the same Greek words, but I and others have pointed out that the descriptions are not even compatible. Day of the Lord is described over 40 times in the Old Testament by 10 writers that span over 600 years. Never once is it described as glorious, wonderful, positive or blessed. Scripture says that every eye will see Christ at his second coming, and it's a series of events, Christ comes back on horses with his saints, and all the earth will look on him and mourn. No horses in the rapture, and it's a millisecond. Not possible for anyone to see that. The resurrection and rapture happens at the Last Trumpet, a known event to all the hearers of Paul, an it's the Glorious hope. The Wedding of the Messiah, is NOT the same as the day cities are plundered and women are raped, and which is likened to being chased by a bear and then bitten by a snake when you get home.  We know that it will be the end of the Time of the Gentiles, so it's likely that as you said, the HS will be here, but not staying continually. The promise of the HS as a comforter, was to the saints in the current Church age, or age of the Gentiles. I think it was mike who mentioned that it could be that the HS works in a different way, when the time of the Gentiles is over, and then the focus is on the Jews and those who missed the rapture. The Saints in the Old Testament were counted righteous by their faith before the Cross, - **notice that this was a different dispensation - and a different way that God interacted with his people in history. It seems that the thing that makes the most sense is that the restraining force is not the HS, because he's omnipresent, and his role in salvation is essential, - that the restraining force is the church- which is God's people acting as salt and light. Hmmmm. The 3 1/2 years timeframe are 2 fold. 1. For the 2 witnesses to preach, along with the 144,000 witnesses, and the angels to fly over the whole earth to share the everlasting Gospel. and 2. It is 3 1/2 years from the Fall feasts to the Spring feasts, and also 3 1/2 years [6 month intervals] from the Spring feasts to the fall feasts. It's not coincidence at all that the exact day count - 1260 days fits perfectly, going from Feast of trumpets, 2022 to Unleavened bread, 2026 , and then, just think about it for a second --- exactly 1290 days - the same exact day count given in Daniel, from Unleavened Bread, to Day of Atonement, [Second Coming] 2029. It's also not coincidence at all that there are 4 Old Testament passages that explicitly link the Moedim [Appointed times/ Feasts] to end times events. Maranatha. Where did you get your info for this concerning the 1290 and 1260 day lengths of time? "The 3 1/2 years timeframe are 2 fold. 1. For the 2 witnesses to preach, along with the 144,000 witnesses, and the angels to fly over the whole earth to share the everlasting Gospel. and 2. It is 3 1/2 years from the Fall feasts to the Spring feasts, and also 3 1/2 years [6 month intervals] from the Spring feasts to the fall feasts. It's not coincidence at all that the exact day count - 1260 days fits perfectly, going from Feast of trumpets, 2022 to Unleavened bread, 2026 , and then, just think about it for a second --- exactly 1290 days - the same exact day count given in Daniel, from Unleavened Bread, to Day of Atonement, [Second Coming] 2029. It's also not coincidence at all that there are 4 Old Testament passages that explicitly link the Moedim [Appointed times/ Feasts] to end times events." This does not agree with www.easycalculation.com/date-day/hebrew-calendar-date-difference.php From Tishri 1 [Feast of Trumpets] of Hebrew year 5783 (our year 2022) until Tishri 10 [Day of Atonement] of the Hebrew year 5790 (our year 2029) is in fact 2550 days long, BUT... From Tishri 1, 5783 until Nisan 21 of Hebrew year 5786 [7th day of the feast of unleavened bread] (our year 2026) is 1290 days (not 1260) and from there to Yom Kippur 5790 is 1260 days, and not 1290. You seem to have gotten your numbers crossed. What say you? Be Blessed Pesachpup |
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 6, 2021 21:27:24 GMT -6
I'm thinking on this one... An example that I can think of that confirms your thesis is all of the plagues against the Egyptians and the Egyptians chasing after Moses and the Israelites across the Red sea. None of them survived (aka repented) after all of the other judgements. It's possible that nobody repents after the 1/3 population dies. But, it just doesn't make since with the MoB and IoB, or the angel making the verbal announcment to the world to not take the MoB or worship the IoB. Why would they even be necessary if nobody will be able to make that change of mind? Why is the threat of death there? Can we assume that prior to the 1/3 dying, that all the trib saints have already been martyred? If they have it makes for an easy explanation as to why no one repents. Also, that the 1/3 even has to occur after the AoD because Rev 12 indicates that the dragon goes after 'her other children' since he cannot get to the israelis. I would imagine he makes short work of the believers who get saved after the harpazo. After basically re-reading Rev. I can't find any specific case where anyone repents after the 1/3 are gone. This seems to align with other cases in the Old Testament. Deuteronomy 2; Sihon king of Heshbon wouldn't allow the Jews to pass, or buy and sell; and God hardened his spirit and they all died. This was a type of the end times. Same with the Pharaoh of Egypt. Same with Jericho. (yet Rahab and her father's household holed up in her home for 7 days and were saved out of it) All of these types of the end times. ----------- Paul writes that God sends them a strong delusion so that they believe the lie. I guess that's it then. ----------- The future is just a repeat of the past. After the 1/3 dies off, all hope is lost, it's just sit and wait for the final wrath, then the glorious appearing. ----------- Edit: but...! All of those pointers in Revelation back into the Old Testament... That is where we find the finer details. There may be clues that tell us otherwise in the Old Testament. |
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Post by findtruth on Nov 7, 2021 6:43:49 GMT -6
Here is how I understand the prophecy of the 1260, 1290 and the 1335 days. Revelation and Daniel give us information about the day counts.
The seven year tribulation is based on a 360 calendar. There are 2 segments of 1260 days - 1260 days totaling 7 years. The start is at the treaty with the antichrist. The midpoint (3 1/2 year mark )is at the abomination of desolation with the antichrist desecrating the temple. Also the two witnesses will prophesy for 1260 days up to the midpoint and then they are resurrected .
There is 2 more day counts listed: the 1290 and the 1335.
1290 is 30 more days than the 2 nd half of the tribulation according to Daniel 12:11-12.
There is also an extra 45 days that leads up to the 1335 days( blessed who waits till the end) . This 30 plus 45 equals 75 days. I am not sure about the time line of the 30 days and the 45 days. It seems to me that the 1335 day ending will endvwith the blessing, that this may be the start of the millennial kingdom and maybe the sheep and goat judgment and Matthew 25.
Thoughts???
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 7, 2021 7:42:11 GMT -6
Here is how I understand the prophecy of the 1260, 1290 and the 1335 days. Revelation and Daniel give us information about the day counts. The seven year tribulation is based on a 360 calendar. There are 2 segments of 1260 days - 1260 days totaling 7 years. The start is at the treaty with the antichrist. The midpoint (3 1/2 year mark )is at the abomination of desolation with the antichrist desecrating the temple. Also the two witnesses will prophesy for 1260 days up to the midpoint and then they are resurrected . There is 2 more day counts listed: the 1290 and the 1335. 1290 is 30 more days than the 2 nd half of the tribulation according to Daniel 12:11-12. There is also an extra 45 days that leads up to the 1335 days( blessed who waits till the end) . This 30 plus 45 equals 75 days. I am not sure about the time line of the 30 days and the 45 days. It seems to me that the 1335 day ending will endvwith the blessing, that this may be the start of the millennial kingdom and maybe the sheep and goat judgment and Matthew 25. Thoughts??? Excellent summary Lisa, I know there are lots of different views, but I agree with this one, with the added caveat that these day counts are not accidental, or coincidental and that the big three major events - bookends, if you will, - the rapture, 2nd coming and 1000 year millennium are linked to and fall on and fulfill the 3 Fall feasts, which in order are Feast of Trumpets/Yom Teruah [The Last Trumpet], Day of atonement/Yom Kippur and Feast of Booths. Not only is there multiple, clear scripture that supports the point that end times fall on Feast days, Zechariah 14 explicitly states how the Feast of Booths will be celebrated and fulfilled by and through the 1000 year Sabbath millennium - which is pictured in the Old Testament as Rest.
So my thought is that this fits perfectly with scripture, and it also confirms that the rapture is not a surprise/ any-moment-any-day event, but that we who are watching and are children of the day, will know just like Noah knew, and Elijah knew before he was raptured.
The other thing that supports this is related to the 1335 day count. 
If we take the mid-point which as you say is the AC making the Abomination of Desolation, either desecrating the temple or profaning the sacrifices or something profane with the Holy Place, and we use the Passover/Unleavened Bread, and add 1335, - wait for it . . . it falls on Hannukah, 2029, - which is not only a feast, which Christ celebrated in the NT, but it's the Feast of Dedication of the Temple, and this would be just in time for the 4th temple to be dedicated, which Christ builds and we use in the Sabbath Millennium. Hmmmmm. 
That's my 2 cents.
Maranatha |
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 7, 2021 7:45:46 GMT -6
mikeThe closest thing I can find is: Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This occurs after the AoD. This isn't showing people repenting, but it does show that saints survived after Rev 9.
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 7, 2021 8:35:17 GMT -6
mike The closest thing I can find is: Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This occurs after the AoD. This isn't showing people repenting, but it does show that saints survived after Rev 9. Great find, uscgvet ! The passage explicitly says they did not worship the beast, they were martyred for the witness of Jesus - [Martyr's crown] and they reign with Christ in the 1000 year Sabbath Millennium. What's unmistakably clear is that this is NOT Christians now - before the Tribulation. The AC is not revealed , Nor is the Mark of the Beast here yet. Hmmm. Just the reminder that we can't ignore the tens of millions of Jews who clearly are NOT saved now - (Not currently part of the Bride of Christ) but all Israel will be saved in the tribulation. Why? How, because of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses, who will show their brothers how the event of end times fit with Old Testament teaching, and when it happens on Feast days, and 80 -100 million people are resurrected at the Last Trumpet, - it will not go unnoticed to Jews everywhere. We have to remember that scripture doesn't say when the seals are opened, and when 1/3 of the people on earth are killed, **in relation to the 7 year timeframe, and we know there are multiple instances of Tribulation saints, and we know that there are millions who have heard, or who have a Crazy Aunt Clara, who told them about the end times and the rapture, and millions are even "Members" of church, but are "Cultural Christians" a huge issue in the South, but they have rejected the truth, or departed from it, - as scripture clearly says is a sign of end times. So while i respect people's different views, - the notion that none repent in the tribulation is a huge problem for those who see the rapture and the 2nd coming as one event, but not a deal breaker for those who believe Mid-trib rapture.If it's one event, and they think it happens at the end, or 3/4 way through, then the bible contradicts itself many places. Not only does it contradict itself regarding the people being threatened of death, and those who don't take the mark being punished, but the angels don't make sense, and the 144,000 witnesses are a contradiction and the dozens of descriptions about the rapture vs the 2nd coming would all be huge contradictions. Hmmmm. But even still, - they can't ignore the Jews. No honest person would say that they are part the church now, but no honest person can say that Israel doesn't come to Christ, in the Tribulation, - ironically, when the time of the Gentiles is finished. So they end up not being able to deny the tribulation saints, but also can't say when the 1/3 are killed. This is the classic example of Occam's Razor, - when the most obvious solution with the least amount of holes is the right one. Rapture happens Pre or mid, those who rejected Christ see horrible tribulation and 2 witnesses raised from the dead, their eyes are opened, and they are martyred for Christ or taken in the mid -trib rapture, and all those who didn't repent at the Last Chance were subjected to the Cruel, terrible, dreadful, anguish, bloody, dark, punishment at the 2nd coming/ Day of the Lord at the end of the Tribulation. Day of Atonement, - Day of Sentencing, when the Door is shut. **But there are those who see the rapture and the 2nd coming as very distinct, for different groups of people, but they are Mid Trib. So just for a second, let's say this is the case -- Let's say all the pre-tribbers in the world are all misled, and the rapture really is Mid-trib but the rapture is distinct from the 2nd coming at the end.
The AC commits the Abom of Desolation mid-point, and people all over the planet see this huge blasphemy, and the eyes of the Jews are opened, and millions of Gentiles come to Christ at the mid point, then the rapture happens, and they all go to up in the clouds, in a blink of an eye, and 6 months later, [So about 4 years into the Tribulation, six months after the Mid-point, Revel 9 happens, and then 1/3 of the earth is killed. All the people had the world's biggest Last Chance Invitation, Call to come on the Ark, and millions came to Christ, but many millions more did not. The Jewish remnant, and those who were not part of the Body of Christ, are raptured up in the clouds with Christ, in the air, and the wrath of God being poured out on the earth in the 2nd half. **So this scenario has it's own problems, but it explains how the tribulation saints come to Christ before 1/3 of the earth is killed. IMHO, The view that the rapture and the 2nd coming are the same is not supported with clear scripture, and no one has given an explanation from scripture that says they are the same, and the contradictions are all cleared up when we see that the harpazo and 2nd coming are distinct. |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Nov 7, 2021 10:07:34 GMT -6
mike The closest thing I can find is: Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This occurs after the AoD. This isn't showing people repenting, but it does show that saints survived after Rev 9. You kind of have to back up to the First Woe to understand who the 200 Million Angelic Army is targeting during the 2nd Woe(I actually think the number just means Completeness, anything to do with 10 or especially 10 x 10 or 10,000 x 10,000 is just emphasizing all of the heavenly host, JMHO) anyway, in Rev. 9:4 we see that only those who don't have the seal of God are targeted by these Demon hordes i the first woe, as we see below Rev. 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. So, we know people get saved during the 70th week, after it starts, thus they are on earth at this time, as we see via the Jews in Zechariah 13:8-9 (1/3 come to Christ) but what we don't know is if any person can get saved after the Wrath of God starts at the midway point (1260), I assume they can but only if they do not have the Mark of the Beast, but having the Mark of the Beast suggests you have made your choice and thus can't repent. So, it is my opinion you can repent at this time, but only if you have not taken the Mark of the Beast, and most of those will have already been killed, as we see with those Martyrs mentioned in Rev, 20:4. Thus those being spoken of will indeed not repent, because most can't, they have made their choice, but the gospel continues to be preached unto the whole world by an Angel, as Revelation 14:6-7 shows us. We can see after the Judgment starts falling on mankind that an Angel preachers the Gospel unto the whole world, so my guess is that there are those who come to Christ after the Judgment starts, but those being targeted by God for having taken the Mark of the Beast do not repent, because they have taken that Mark and thus they can not repent, and it is just stated "matter of factly" that they refuse to repent. No one can know in full until we are in heaven, we see darkly now, but we will all know then, so until then we are all endeavoring to understand via the Hoy Spirits guidance. Amen. Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Great thoughts by everyone though.... |
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 7, 2021 10:24:09 GMT -6
mike The closest thing I can find is: Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This occurs after the AoD. This isn't showing people repenting, but it does show that saints survived after Rev 9. Great find, uscgvet ! The passage explicitly says they did not worship the beast, they were martyred for the witness of Jesus - [Martyr's crown] and they reign with Christ in the 1000 year Sabbath Millennium. What's unmistakably clear is that this is NOT Christians now - before the Tribulation. The AC is not revealed , Nor is the Mark of the Beast here yet. Hmmm. Just the reminder that we can't ignore the tens of millions of Jews who clearly are NOT saved now - (Not currently part of the Bride of Christ) but all Israel will be saved in the tribulation. Why? How, because of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses, who will show their brothers how the event of end times fit with Old Testament teaching, and when it happens on Feast days, and 80 -100 million people are resurrected at the Last Trumpet, - it will not go unnoticed to Jews everywhere. We have to remember that scripture doesn't say when the seals are opened, and when 1/3 of the people on earth are killed, **in relation to the 7 year timeframe, and we know there are multiple instances of Tribulation saints, and we know that there are millions who have heard, or who have a Crazy Aunt Clara, who told them about the end times and the rapture, and millions are even "Members" of church, but are "Cultural Christians" a huge issue in the South, but they have rejected the truth, or departed from it, - as scripture clearly says is a sign of end times. So while i respect people's different views, - the notion that none repent in the tribulation is a huge problem for those who see the rapture and the 2nd coming as one event, but not a deal breaker for those who believe Mid-trib rapture.If it's one event, and they think it happens at the end, or 3/4 way through, then the bible contradicts itself many places. Not only does it contradict itself regarding the people being threatened of death, and those who don't take the mark being punished, but the angels don't make sense, and the 144,000 witnesses are a contradiction and the dozens of descriptions about the rapture vs the 2nd coming would all be huge contradictions. Hmmmm. But even still, - they can't ignore the Jews. No honest person would say that they are part the church now, but no honest person can say that Israel doesn't come to Christ, in the Tribulation, - ironically, when the time of the Gentiles is finished. So they end up not being able to deny the tribulation saints, but also can't say when the 1/3 are killed. This is the classic example of Occam's Razor, - when the most obvious solution with the least amount of holes is the right one. Rapture happens Pre or mid, those who rejected Christ see horrible tribulation and 2 witnesses raised from the dead, their eyes are opened, and they are martyred for Christ or taken in the mid -trib rapture, and all those who didn't repent at the Last Chance were subjected to the Cruel, terrible, dreadful, anguish, bloody, dark, punishment at the 2nd coming/ Day of the Lord at the end of the Tribulation. Day of Atonement, - Day of Sentencing, when the Door is shut. **But there are those who see the rapture and the 2nd coming as very distinct, for different groups of people, but they are Mid Trib. So just for a second, let's say this is the case -- Let's say all the pre-tribbers in the world are all misled, and the rapture really is Mid-trib but the rapture is distinct from the 2nd coming at the end.
The AC commits the Abom of Desolation mid-point, and people all over the planet see this huge blasphemy, and the eyes of the Jews are opened, and millions of Gentiles come to Christ at the mid point, then the rapture happens, and they all go to up in the clouds, in a blink of an eye, and 6 months later, [So about 4 years into the Tribulation, six months after the Mid-point, Revel 9 happens, and then 1/3 of the earth is killed. All the people had the world's biggest Last Chance Invitation, Call to come on the Ark, and millions came to Christ, but many millions more did not. The Jewish remnant, and those who were not part of the Body of Christ, are raptured up in the clouds with Christ, in the air, and the wrath of God being poured out on the earth in the 2nd half. **So this scenario has it's own problems, but it explains how the tribulation saints come to Christ before 1/3 of the earth is killed. IMHO, The view that the rapture and the 2nd coming are the same is not supported with clear scripture, and no one has given an explanation from scripture that says they are the same, and the contradictions are all cleared up when we see that the harpazo and 2nd coming are distinct. You're right, we don't know exactly when on a timeline where the 200M army kills but it still must precede the Mark of the Beast and Image of the Beast that speaks. Rev 9 states that the 200M army kills and the remaining people didn't repent of the works of their hands that don't speak. Rev 13 states that a miracle will occur that the 2nd beast from the earth gives the image of the beast the ability to speak. Thus, Rev 9 comes before the mid-point because it's the midpoint that the image of the beast is even created, or granted the power to speak. |
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Post by mike on Nov 8, 2021 9:22:51 GMT -6
mike The closest thing I can find is: Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This occurs after the AoD. This isn't showing people repenting, but it does show that saints survived after Rev 9. Further proving the notion that those who do continue are already saints through the trib (and Great Trib). I know the view isnt popular but I'm not trying to be. Ive said this numerous times now so forgive me if youre sick of it. If the pre-trib view is right and other extended views are wrong, I am happier than fill in the blank. But if the pre-trib view is incorrect and we are on the edge of the 70th week, I want to be prepared spiritually, mentally and even physically as best I can. If we look at the rapid moral decline in the western societies today we see that people are getting what they desire, more sin with approval. Everything in this world that was already against God is now rising to greater heights. We don't see masses of people repenting of their evil deeds, rather the exact opposite. Thinking that this suddenly flips 180 (repent) and people begin to change towards the Lord with no one to preach to them except 1 angel and 144k isnt going to cut it. Thinking the two witnesses will get people to change their minds after the church is gone conflicts with scripture as they have a party when they are killed. There should be mourning and sackcloth, but its the opposite. |
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Post by findtruth on Nov 10, 2021 7:06:25 GMT -6
Everyone has great points about Gods timing and what each believes. ( pre, mid or post) . I am in the camp that pre-tribulation works with scripture the best. I won’t go into all the reasons of why I believe that now in this post, but I want to make one point.
Believers in the church age( before Daniels 70 week starts), are sealed with the Holy spirit of promise and it cannot be taken away as through Paul’s letters in the New Testament shows through scripture.
My point I want to make is that at the 3. 1/2 year mark, mid point of the tribulation, the antichrist requires everyone to receive a mark in their right hand or forehead or they can’t buy or sell . Revelation 13. The rapture has to be before the tribulation because believers can’t have the spirit of God taken away because of a choice they make by taking it. To make my point more clear , in the tribulation, it’s either one takes it and is eternally damned or as killed for their faith. How can we do this in our own strength ,we can’t. The Holy Spirit resides in every believer and we may not be able to do it in our own strength. But only through the Holy Spirit‘s power.
Therefore, I believe that the rapture has to be a pre-tribulation or event. Believers will not be here to have to make that choice during the mid point of the tribulation because if they do, their salvation would be taken away and this is not scriptural.
Also, at the sheep and goat judgement, the people left on earth to go into the millennium 1000 year timeframe, will be judged by God on how they treated there brother. Matthew 25. It is clearly different than the church age that we are living in now.
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Post by mike on Nov 10, 2021 8:16:08 GMT -6
findtruth Can you show me where where you find that the Mark of the Beast is required at the 3.5 year mid-point? Where do you derive that from? I am not aware of the verse or verses that indicate it happens at that time, can you help me?
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