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Post by venge on Nov 4, 2021 7:48:51 GMT -6
At the start of the 7 years ,after the rapture, the restrainer will be removed ( Holy Spirit ) he resides in every believer on earth. . Because of this fact, the evil will prevail on the earth as never before. The peace and life as normal will not be like before the rapture. The peace I was referring to before is the false peace that the antichrist makes with Israel and the nations. However, there is a difference in scripture between the start of the 7 years and the 2nd , 3 1/2 years which is called the great tribulation where Gods wrath will be poured out. God desires people to repent and turn back to Him. The first seal starts with the strengthening of the covenant. The other seals will follow . The second half is the great tribulation and the first half is the start of the 70th week , JACOB’s trouble dealing with Israel. I hope I am making myself clear. I am all over the place. Anyhow, revelation mentions a silence in heaven for a half hour. I take this as meaning before the start of the great tribulation which is far worse than the start ( first 3 1/2 years) I’m not sure about the time frames of when the seals, trumpets and bowls fall in the time frames but isn’t it interesting that there is silence in heaven for a half hour? Maybe a gap? Thoughts?? If the restrainer is the HS and it removes at the start of a 7 year period: How do tribulation saints get saved because that requires the HS (comforter) to be in them and to seal them? As you said it was a fact, I'd love to hear a response. |
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 4, 2021 8:46:40 GMT -6
uscgvet , So lets get this straight, you got it right and everyone else is wrong?  Vet - You always present yourself as one who studies the word. Like many others, we often can change our thoughts on certain (less essential) things when we have better understanding. I do not doubt that you think what you are seeing is correct. However please consider Proverbs 15:22, 11:14 and some others in your assessment. I'm not going to say that you are wrong and the commentaries are correct but brother I anticipate your evidence that shows that the commentators were wrong about this. This scenario you present...its possible you are in error. Again curious to see the support for this  That's why I prefaced my statement with IMHO. It's just an opinion, but one that could likely be correct. And I'll be sure to ask Paul when we see him. Galatians 6 14 Jesus 15 Jesus 16 the Israel of God 17 Jesus 18 Jesus And you are quite right on Proverbs. I'm still working on my arrogant sin nature. I repent. Thank you mike and venge. |
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 4, 2021 11:34:08 GMT -6
Ok, found it.
It wasn't Paul, it was Matthew (well, technically Hosea and God ) that linked the name Isaiah to Jesus.
When I saw it I was like, that's important. I need to make note of that.
The prophet being Hosea
Israel = Jesus
--------------------
Edit: updated my notes to include Paul's Galatians 6:16 as a possible reference to Matthew and Hosea.
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Post by mike on Nov 4, 2021 12:17:27 GMT -6
Barnes Commentary: When you posted it uscgvet I was like "it has to be accurate because Matthew wrote it that way". No misunderstand or slight of hand here. Seems that this is a dual type of fulfillment or shadow/type. We in Him, He in Us |
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 4, 2021 12:38:29 GMT -6
And Exodus 4:22
That can't be more clear.
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Post by stormyknight on Nov 4, 2021 13:05:40 GMT -6
Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."
could this and Ex. 4:22 be similar to the comparison of the Levites gathering a tithe from Israel for the Temple = Abraham giving a tenth of his spoil to Melchizedek the High Priest? The Levites/Levi being yet to be brought forth from the loins of Abraham?
Israel through Judah would carry the seed of the Messiah with them as they were brought out of Egypt.
Just a thought
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Post by venge on Nov 4, 2021 20:00:19 GMT -6
This one guys sums it up really well. There was a lot of info but I’ll paste the end part if anyone cares:
Now this interpretation tends to make Paul contradict his whole line of reasoning in this epistle. Over against the Judaizers’ perversion of the gospel he has emphasized the fact that “the blessing of Abraham” now rests upon all those, and only those, “who are of faith” (3:9); that all those, and only those, “who belong to Christ” are “heirs according to the promise” (3:29). These are the very people who “walk by the Spirit” (5:16), and “are led by the Spirit” (5:18). Moreover, to make his meaning very clear, the apostle has even called special attention to the fact that God bestows his blessings on all true believers, regardless of nationality, race, social position, or sex: “There can be neither Jew nor Greek; there can be neither slave nor freeman; there can be no male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (3:28). By means of an allegory (4:21-31) he has re-emphasized this truth. And would he now, at the very close of the letter, undo all this by first of all pronouncing a blessing on “as many as” (or: “all”) who walk by the rule of glorying in the cross, be they Jew or Gentile by birth, and then pronouncing a blessing upon those who do not (or: do not yet) walk by that rule? I refuse to accept that explanation. Appeals to the well-known “Eighteen petition prayer of the Jews,” [12] to the meaning of the word Israel in other New Testament passages, etc., cannot rescue this interpretation. As to the former, Gal. 6:16 must be interpreted in accordance with its own specific context and in the light of the entire argument of this particular epistle. And as to the latter, it is very clear that in his epistles the apostle employs the term Israel in more than one sense. In fact, in the small compass of a single verse (Rom. 9:6) he uses it in two different senses. Each passage in which that term occurs must therefore be explained in the light of its context. Besides, Paul uses the term “the Israel of God” only in the present passage, nowhere else.
What, then, is the solution? In harmony with all of Paul’s teaching in this epistle (and see aslo Eph. 2:14-22), and also in harmony with the broad, all-inclusive statement at the beginning of the present passage, where the apostle pronounces God’s blessing of peace and mercy upon “as many as” shall walk by this rule, an object from which nothing can be subtracted and to which nothing can be added, it is my firm belief that those many translators and interpreters are right who have decided that kai, as here used, must be rendered even, or (with equal effect) must be left untranslated. Hence, what the apostle says is this: “And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace (be) upon them and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.” Cf. Psalm 125:5. Upon all of God’s true Israel, Jew or Gentile, all who truly glory in the cross, the blessing is pronounced.
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Post by findtruth on Nov 5, 2021 5:40:29 GMT -6
The Holy Spirit does not leave the earth but He is always present. What I mean is that all believers in the church age are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. In other words the Holy Spirit resides inside every believer during only the church age. The Holy Spirit within the believer will be taken up at the rapture. The Holy Spirit will then take presence as like an old testament times when the Holy Spirit came upon people like David and such. He does not reside in believers ( tribulation saints, or Jew believers).
The tribulation saints will be saved in the tribulation . Yes as soon as the rapture happens many people will become believers and realize that they have missed the rapture.
As for the great tribulation it states in Matthew 24 that there should be great tribulation as never time in the earth before. I believe this is at the 3 1/2 year mark. I also agree that the sixth seal will happen at the 3 1/2 your mark. When all the Men who dwell on the earth ask rocks to fall on them and try to hide from The Almighty God but can not. And then they great day of the Lord will take place ( Great tribulation as seen has never been on the world before).
Also, The entire tribulation will last a total of seven years it is also called the time of Jacus trouble in the book of Daniel.
The whole point of this thread is that the tribulation time is divided into two segments of 3 1/2 years each. God is a God of numbers. He must have a reason of dividing it into 3 1/2 year segments.
I am always searching for truth and I ponder ideas.
Lisa
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Post by mike on Nov 5, 2021 7:52:28 GMT -6
findtruth - I think I concur with you on the Holy Spirit not leaving earth, but the part I am not seeing is "only in the church age". Does God respect persons? If a person comes to faith the day after the pre-trib rapture, that person does not get sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit? Why is that? Is the faith in that person less important to God after the pre-trib rapture? It could be but I'm asking you to help me see it Aside from my view on the pre-trib - if it were correct I am hard pressed to think many will come to faith at this time. I see scripture like this that makes me think in these terms: After a third of mankind is killed, the remaining two-thirds does not repent. To me that means no one left changes their mind about the Lord Jesus and accepts Him. According to pre-trib, this happens after the rapture. In the verses above and throughout Rev, I do not see that men come to the Lord, rather the opposite. Can you help me reconcile this with your view?
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 5, 2021 8:07:24 GMT -6
The Holy Spirit does not leave the earth but He is always present. What I mean is that all believers in the church age are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. In other words the Holy Spirit resides inside every believer during only the church age. The Holy Spirit within the believer will be taken up at the rapture. The Holy Spirit will then take presence as like an old testament times when the Holy Spirit came upon people like David and such. He does not reside in believers ( tribulation saints, or Jew believers). The tribulation saints will be saved in the tribulation . Yes as soon as the rapture happens many people will become believers and realize that they have missed the rapture. As for the great tribulation it states in Matthew 24 that there should be great tribulation as never time in the earth before. I believe this is at the 3 1/2 year mark. I also agree that the sixth seal will happen at the 3 1/2 your mark. When all the Men who dwell on the earth ask rocks to fall on them and try to hide from The Almighty God but can not. And then they great day of the Lord will take place ( Great tribulation as seen has never been on the world before). Also, The entire tribulation will last a total of seven years it is also called the time of Jacus trouble in the book of Daniel. The whole point of this thread is that the tribulation time is divided into two segments of 3 1/2 years each. God is a God of numbers. He must have a reason of dividing it into 3 1/2 year segments. I am always searching for truth and I ponder ideas. Lisa It's difficult for us to know the reason why the split of 3.5 + 3.5 occurs. We can speculate on it. Some believe Christ fulfilled the 1st half of the 3.5 years with his earthly ministry. Many good points are made from that belief. Others believe the 7 years are yet to be fulfilled and start with the Rapture and 1st Seal being opened. This too has many good points going for it. Some here believe the 7 years have already started. All we can do is read about what happens during those periods of time. I'm in the camp that the 7 years have yet to start and that they will likely start around 2023'ish (2030 AD - 7 years or 2033 AD - 7 years) due to Christ's death as being the start of the New Covenant per Hebrews 9 (death of the testator starts the enforcement of the testament - like a "last will and testament"). |
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Post by venge on Nov 5, 2021 8:35:54 GMT -6
The Holy Spirit does not leave the earth but He is always present. What I mean is that all believers in the church age are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. In other words the Holy Spirit resides inside every believer during only the church age. The Holy Spirit within the believer will be taken up at the rapture. The Holy Spirit will then take presence as like an old testament times when the Holy Spirit came upon people like David and such. He does not reside in believers ( tribulation saints, or Jew believers). The tribulation saints will be saved in the tribulation . Yes as soon as the rapture happens many people will become believers and realize that they have missed the rapture. As for the great tribulation it states in Matthew 24 that there should be great tribulation as never time in the earth before. I believe this is at the 3 1/2 year mark. I also agree that the sixth seal will happen at the 3 1/2 your mark. When all the Men who dwell on the earth ask rocks to fall on them and try to hide from The Almighty God but can not. And then they great day of the Lord will take place ( Great tribulation as seen has never been on the world before). Also, The entire tribulation will last a total of seven years it is also called the time of Jacus trouble in the book of Daniel. The whole point of this thread is that the tribulation time is divided into two segments of 3 1/2 years each. God is a God of numbers. He must have a reason of dividing it into 3 1/2 year segments. I am always searching for truth and I ponder ideas. Lisa , You had said: I know you are here seeking answers or perhaps just seeing what others think. I'm not trying to grill you, but understand I do disagree with you on this. Look at some things we are told. 1. Christ baptizes all with water and fire (Matthew 3:11) 2. He baptizes also with the Holy Spirit (John 1:33) 3. Believers pray in the Holy Spirit (Jude 1:20) 4. No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the HS (1 Cor 12:3) thereby the HS resides in EVERY age for all eternity 5. The HS teaches us what to say (Luke 12:12) It must always exist. 6. The HS testifies to us his sacrifice, covenant and promise (Hebrews 10:15) 7. The HS directs our thoughts and actions (Hebrews 3:7) 8. It reminds us of things (John 14:26) 9. Removal of the HS is like God casting you from his presence (Psalm 51:11) 10. The HS is a seal upon you marking you are HIS. (Eph 4:30) Because the HS guides, directs our thoughts, brings things to attention, teaches us, helps us in prayer and so much more...the HS will never leave as long as someone believes and worships the Lord now, then and forever more. If they missed it, the door is shut and they are locked out. If you follow Matthew 24, as you wrote above, what is that event that follows? I'll post it below: 1. Christ returns 2. every eye shall see him 3. He comes with Power and glory 4. With his angels 5. sound of a trumpet 6. In the clouds 7. Gathers his people How many advents does Christ come back, in the clouds, with a trumpet, gathering his people in power and glory? Also consider for a minute, that tribulation does not = wrath of God. The Greek words are not the same meaning. Lastly, I dont believe it states in Daniel that the time of Jacob's trouble last 7 years. It was Jeremiah 30:7 that the verse was stated and a length of time was not stated. The word tsarah is for trouble/ Its defined as: adversary, adversity, affliction, anguish, distress, tribulation, trouble Not wrath. Not to mention, that time is not defined as being a punishment for them by God. It's described as a time when Jacob will be faced with adversity, but he will be saved from it. God evens says to that time and to the people: It is not punishment to them or wrath on them. (Fear not; do not be dismayed) Only a difficult time/struggle for God's people Daniel 12:1 tells us: It goes on to mention what many believe to be the resurrection of the just. This is the one that precedes the Great White Throne judgment. The one which is of all saints, peoples and tribes in the earth under Christ. We are not told of anything calamitous till the midway point of Daniel's 70th week. Therefore, the first 3.5 years may not be bad. They could be, but we arnt told. Most likely, there will be difficulty of some sort...but that exists today in the world. We only know of the 7 years from Daniel. In all of Revelation, it is only 3.5 years. The AC rules for 3.5 and the witnesses preach for 3.5. People have various ideas how that plays out. |
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 5, 2021 8:37:04 GMT -6
Maybe the split of 3.5 + 3.5 has to do with "Babylon" receiving "double" for her sins.
I have this theory that Jerusalem (or Washington DC or New York City or Rome or London or...) is primary target numero-uno with a first strike nuke attack that occurs at the 1st seal opening of Revelation 6.
It's based on Isaiah 10-14 and Jeremiah 4 & 6, and Jeremiah 50-52. Lots of places all around the OT Prophets.
Then mid-way into the 7 years, "Babylon the Harlot" is destroyed in 1 day. This is a world wide event. Maybe full scale nuclear attack or alien attack or asteroid bombardment or some kind of fire based attack everywhere that levels Babylon to the ground making into a desert per Isaiah 14.
Once that happens, the killed Anti-Christ is raised from the dead and is given his power from the 7 remaining 10 kings to rule the world for the remaining 3.5 years as a tyrant.
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 5, 2021 11:01:18 GMT -6
findtruth - I think I concur with you on the Holy Spirit not leaving earth, but the part I am not seeing is "only in the church age". Does God respect persons? If a person comes to faith the day after the pre-trib rapture, that person does not get sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit? Why is that? Is the faith in that person less important to God after the pre-trib rapture? It could be but I'm asking you to help me see it Aside from my view on the pre-trib - if it were correct I am hard pressed to think many will come to faith at this time. I see scripture like this that makes me think in these terms: After a third of mankind is killed, the remaining two-thirds does not repent. To me that means no one left changes their mind about the Lord Jesus and accepts Him. According to pre-trib, this happens after the rapture. In the verses above and throughout Rev, I do not see that men come to the Lord, rather the opposite. Can you help me reconcile this with your view? What about signs. Is it considered "faith" if one sees with his/her very own eyes signs that are impossible? How does Hebrews 11:1 put it? "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Well... they will see things that we today never had the chance to see, because if we saw them, that wouldn't be faith, they saw it... It won't just be "faith" that saves them, they will see the 2 witnesses perform miracles. It will be their "work" to the death of not accepting the mark of the beast, nor worshiping the beast, nor worshiping the image of the beast that saves them. How does Revelation 14 put it? The Threat:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying in a loud voice, “ Whoever worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or his hand 10 will drink the wine of God’s wrath, which has been poured undiluted into the cup of his anger. He will be tortured with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb. 11 The smoke from their torture goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” ... The Faith + Work/Labor required:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to their faithfulness in Jesus: 13 I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: How blessed are the dead, that is, those who die in the Lord from now on!” “Yes,” says the Spirit. “Let them rest from their labors, for their actions follow them.” -------------------- So now we get into the debate of what if a Christian has faith in Jesus Christ and takes the mark of the Beast. Where's the Holy Spirit there? I don't see a sealed forever Holy Spirit in this specific case. I see the curse of the wrath of God. -------------------- mike said if nobody is able to change their minds about Jesus, how do we have " those who die in the Lord from now on?" |
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Post by mike on Nov 5, 2021 12:49:17 GMT -6
uscgvet - I simply quoted what scripture tells us. It says no one repents after the 6th trumpet. So its possible some come to salvation before this but as I wrote and quoted, it doesnt seem so. Many pre-trib theories say the two witnesses come at the beginning of week 70. That may be very well accurate, but the response from those who dwell on the earth is give gifts to each other once they are killed. Doesnt sound like a trib saint would do that. These two are killed by the beast from the bottomless pit (who arrives at trumpet 5, but cannot harm those with the seal of God on their forehead). Once this monster arrives on the scene it cant harm those who are sealed. According to the last post by findtruth the rapture has already occurred (outset of week 70) and the ones sealed with the Holy Spirit are removed. This seems like another contradiction to me, but I could be incorrect for sure. Point with the witnesses is if they arrive at the outset of week 70, and the beast from the abyss is likely the AC then he would have to kill them shortly after he arrives or the same('ish) day (as the AoD). But just maybe they witness for 3.5 years are killed and there is a 3 day hiatus, then the other 3.5 years starts. If they do witness in the first 3.5 maybe many are saved before the 6th trumpet...I am inclined the removal comes after seal 5 before seal 6, so I see the possibility but am somewhat doubtful based on the text. Regarding the MotB, again I see your point, but the text says they go to the lake of fire. So how do you reconcile that Christians will take the mark? I mean if am presented with the option to take the mark and worship the beast and his image or guillotine, I like to say that I would take death now behind the keyboard but in that time I dont know how I would react. I only hope that the Lord give me the strength and grace to endure that. I think what you quote is applicable to me, you, believers right now who go into the Great Trib.
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 5, 2021 14:02:34 GMT -6
mike Not sure which version you used for this quote: All that Rev 9:18-20 means is that up to this point where 1/3 of mankind has been killed, the remaining people haven't repented. It doesn't mean that they can't change their mind in the future. It's just up to that point. At the point of Rev 9:18-20, we haven't seen the mark of the beast yet, nor the image of the beast. How do I know this? Rev 9:20 " which can neither see nor hear nor walk;" Why is this important? When the beast arrives after being brought back from death (after the AoD), he creates an image that speaks and even reports on folks that don't worship the beast ... per Rev 13:15. This means that the remaining 2/3 of the same people from Rev 9:18-20 have the ability to now change their minds to the point of being tattled on by said "image of the Beast" which can now see and talk and observe folks not worshiping it. If it's not possible for people to change their minds after 1/3 of the population died, why then is it written that the image that speaks needs to even turn folks in? What's the point of Rev 13:12-18 ? If everyone is on the resurrected beast's side of the game... then there is no reason to even need the image to tattle. They are all already lost. No need for the mark either. No point. ---------------- Edit: There is also absolutely no point to this angel: Rev 14 9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying in a loud voice, “Whoever worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or his hand 10 will drink the wine of God’s wrath, which has been poured undiluted into the cup of his anger. He will be tortured with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb. 11 The smoke from their torture goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” Call it off. After 1/3 died, it's all over for the folks on earth. It's done. Walk away.
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That's why I prefaced my statement with IMHO.
