Do Not Be Deceived

Very good message, mike ,. I've been trying to focus on the 'do not be deceived' part for some time now and so have questioned what the scriptures actually say. It does say we are 'caught up':

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17

I can't seem to justify this with the idea that the church has to be raptured before the lawless one is revealed. It seems to fit more with the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. If it doesn't make sense that we would go up and come right back, it is not for us to understand. In my mind those raptured do not 'go up', they go from material to immaterial, mortal to immortal, flesh to spirit, and from then on will always be with the Lord. Why? Because sin has no place in God's Kingdom and God's Kingdom is spirit. If one accepts Jesus' sacrifice for their sins, then they are 'sinless' and are able to be in God's Kingdom.

Having said that, something else Nelson touch on was that Paul believed that, if he is alive when Christ returns, he will be changed, caught up. But he also says that, when Christ returns, "the dead in Christ will be the first to rise". We've had this discussion here on Unsealed before about 'soul sleep' and whatnot. I personally think that is just a buzzword to discount the scriptures. The scriptures say two definite things about death. 

“When his spirit departs, he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish.” Psalm 146:4

"Remember Him before the silver cord is snapped and the golden bowl is crushed, before the pitcher is shattered at the spring and the wheel is broken at the well, before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it." Eccl. 12:6-7
AND

"the dead in Christ will be the first to rise." 1 Thess. 4:16 When the Lord descends from heaven.

What happens from the time of death to being resurrected is a mystery, plain and simple. Are we conscious? I don't believe we are. I believe God will return our spirit to us, just as he did(will) to the house of Israel in Ezek. 37:10

In the same theme - this is a very worthwhile listen. Do Not Be Deceived brothers & sisters. We are in perilous times. Pray for each other, love your brothers & sisters in Christ 
Long but informative

rumble.com/vmdn9w-a-world-of-liars-and-lies-and-their-objective-prophecy-update-9-11-2021.html

definitely worthwhile listen! I'm working, so I'm not done with it, obviously, but I just wanted to comment because I will have to finish listening to it at home. I don't know if he addresses it later, but one way to know where the truth is being told the most is where it is getting attacked the most. The world hates Christians in general, why? because that is where the truth is. Other news media don't like FoxNews. Why? probably because they lean more towards the truth than the rest. fwiw, I don't put all my trust in FoxNews, but I listen to them more than, say, CNN.

Good video worth watching.  Pastor is correct.  This is spiritual warfare at it's core.  If we understand that satan is using whatever lies he can through humans, that he despises, to bring about our murder and downfall, then everything we see and hear should be considered with a skeptical eye with God given wisdom.

We've discussed this a number of times, but please restrain yourself from comments like this.  Rule #3.  Your interpretation might be wrong.  I'm one that espouses that you go straight to heaven (if you believe in Christ), which, according to you, is "sad" and "contradicts everything read in scripture," and is merely "guessing at what we want it to say."  I disagree with you as do many.

For starters, let's clarify our terms.  Whether you're an Adventist who teaches soul sleep or hold a traditional/historical Christian view that you are conscious in heaven after death, both sides generally agree about the body and a future resurrection.  So both sides agree the physical part, the material part, is severed and destroyed at physical death and won't be restored (as a spiritual, material body) until the resurrection(s).  The future bodily resurrection is even taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church in something akin to amillennialism (see here).

There is definitely a theme running through Scripture, especially in the OT and not so much in the NT, that the dead are unconscious (e.g., Eccl. 9:5), however, there are other passages that suggest something different.  We can't ignore either side.  Ecclesiastes also says of the dead: "Who knows the spirit of the sons of man that is going up on high, and the spirit of the beast that is going down below to the earth?" (Eccl. 3:21) and ". . . the dust returns to the earth as it was, || And the spirit returns to God who gave it." (Eccl. 12:7)

I would conjecture some passages are purely eschatological in nature and pertain to the state of the wicked after the post-millennial judgment of Rev. 20 (e.g., Obadiah 1:16).  That will be when Matthew 10:28 has been fully, truly fulfilled, when both soul and body are destroyed.  Sometimes confusion arises when we assume the timing of verses that may have their practical fulfillment at the end of all things.

There is also the simple fact that the body itself is truly dead and unconscious even if the spirit continues on, held in either Hades or Heaven until the resurrection(s).  Some of the passages may have that in mind.  We know very little about what is perceptible to disembodied spirits.  However, we do know from Scripture that disembodied spirits are real.  They exist.  And the disembodied spirits of those in Christ are received by God immediately upon death (e.g., Lk. 23:46; Acts 7:59).  And at least some portion of these disembodied spirits are conscious after death, but before their resurrection.  You can't easily avoid the numerous passages on the topic.  Individual example: 1 Sam. 28:1-25.  Collective examples: Luke 16:19-31; Luke 23:43; Rev. 6:9-11.  Also 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is an interesting passage where Paul himself is open to the possibility he had a true out-of-body spiritual experience.

There is also the important point that Jesus always speaks of the righteous dead as if they were presently alive.  This is huge to me.  E.g., Lk. 7:14; 8:54; 20:37-38; Jn. 11:11, 43.

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Finally, stormyknight , circling back to the original verse raised, 2 Corinthians 5:8, I struggle to see this as merely an "I wish" statement.


I see what you're saying, but I don't think this is an accurate statement.  Paul is not excluding the possibility that, in fact, we will be with the LORD once absent from the body.  Taken in context (vv. 1-10), I would argue he's simply making this point: while in the body we are away from the LORD (v. 6), but once we are disembodied we will be with the LORD.  I also think Θαρροῦμεν ("we have courage" or "we are confident") negates the view that Paul is merely making a wishful statement.  Rather, he is saying that as believers in Christ we can be confident that our wish—to be with the LORD after being disembodied—is a confident wish.  It will happen.  And we know that from many other Scriptures (some examples provided above).

Blessings.

venge , I have heard a number of near death reports where the individual having died states that they experience a life review. And, I have heard a number of near death reports where the individual having died does not state that they had a life review but that they were embraced by someone in some manner. So it seems to be the case that two types of death experience are being recounted by those having had near death experiences. The first being a life review and the other being a loving embrace. I would tend to believe that these two different experiences are showing the sins that the individual must pay for; if the individual has a life review then that is showing a tally of sorts and the unpaid sins. On the other hand, if there is a loving embrace of some type and not life review then the sins have been paid by the Savior. Of course there is no evidence or proof to this conclusion but it seems reasonable to me that the judgment is here upon the earth right now.

I would say that the saints who follow Christ and die having salvation have been judged here in mortality if at all. And, the others are also judged here upon the earth while in mortality and are shown a life review upon their passing. Then, before the second resurrection they are formally judged to the damnation that they receive. Whereas, those having salvation in Christ are pure having been washed clean as stated in Rev. 1:5.

It is not like a court judgment because these two groups have already been separated as evidenced by a 1st and 2nd resurrection. And, how were they separated but by a judgment upon them. Thus, there is more than one judgment for each individual it seems; one to show who qualifies to the 1st or 2nd resurrection and then another upon those of the second resurrection to condemn them to their eternal damnation as shown in Rev. 20:12. Please notice in this verse that these dead are being judged according to their works. This contrasts with those who are not judged according to their works but that their works follow them as shown in Rev. 14:13 and that they rest from their labors. It shows two different groups of people. Those who can be proud of their works when they enter into rest in Christ, and secondly, those who are judged of their works when they are cast into damnation after the 2nd resurrection.

Two groups of people and they are ascribed to the group that they go, while here in mortality. In one case the works pertain to choosing and following Christ, and in the other case the works pertain to something else. That is, it takes an effort to accept Christ and as a result of that effort then by the grace of God the individual has salvation. Thus, that original effort toward accepting Christ is a good work. Also, any effort to cause others to accept Christ is a good work. It is this work that follows the individual; because, salvation is the result of choosing Christ. This is my opinion of course but the verses seem to support this conclusion.