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Post by venge on Sept 19, 2021 13:31:17 GMT -6
The judgment seat is never shown to happen at anyone’s death. It happens at Christ appearing. You cannot be at home with the Lord till that happens. Even Job said that he will see his redeemer after he has died and been dead over 2000 years. So if you’re gonna believe it, you need to prove without a doubt that upon death we stand before a judgment seat So, is the thief on the cross, the one Jesus said would be in Paradise with Him that day, is he currently "sleeping" (unconscious)? If he went to Paradise as Jesus said he would, is he there now, but "sleeping" the past 2000 years? If he is there, but unconscious, then he wouldn't know he's in Paradise. Is he not in Paradise? Did Jesus lie to him? Asking for a friend. Luke 23 42-43 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Because you dont like the fact that we must appear before the judgment seat first and that doesnt happen at death...you want to ignore it and switch the subject to the thief? Did Christ go to paradise upon death? Nope. Pretty sure he even said, I have not yet ascended. The thief didnt go to heaven. Christ said today you will be with me in paradise because the thief did 3 things: 1. He professed with his mouth the Lord Jesus 2. Believed that he would be raised from the dead (thereby he was saved) 3. he acknowledge that he deserved to be on the cross and Christ didnt For the thief said to Christ, remember me when you come into your kingdom; knowing Christ was gonna die with him on the cross yet he believed he would still come into his Kingdom . His faith, belief in Christ and his resurrection was why Christ said today you will be with me. The same you or anyone else becomes born again. The moment you do that, you will be with him in paradise.
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Post by yardstick on Sept 19, 2021 13:50:08 GMT -6
The judgment seat is never shown to happen at anyone’s death. It happens at Christ appearing. You cannot be at home with the Lord till that happens. Even Job said that he will see his redeemer after he has died and been dead over 2000 years. So if you’re gonna believe it, you need to prove without a doubt that upon death we stand before a judgment seat So, is the thief on the cross, the one Jesus said would be in Paradise with Him that day, is he currently "sleeping" (unconscious)? If he went to Paradise as Jesus said he would, is he there now, but "sleeping" the past 2000 years? If he is there, but unconscious, then he wouldn't know he's in Paradise. Is he not in Paradise? Did Jesus lie to him? Asking for a friend.Luke 23 42-43 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. LOL
Now I am curious if your friend is the thief...
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Post by fitz on Sept 19, 2021 16:30:39 GMT -6
The judgment seat is never shown to happen at anyone’s death. It happens at Christ appearing. You cannot be at home with the Lord till that happens. Even Job said that he will see his redeemer after he has died and been dead over 2000 years. So if you’re gonna believe it, you need to prove without a doubt that upon death we stand before a judgment seat So wait a minute, now, I'm no theologian, but I thought basic Christian doctrine, accepted by most, is as follows: The essence of our being is triune, made in the image of God. Spirit, Soul and Body. We are a spirit, that possesses a soul (the mind, will and emotions), that lives in a body. With the spirit, we have fellowship with God, or not, based on the decision we've made, and that with eternal consequences. When we believe, it's our spirit that is regenerated, by the power of God...the same power that raised Christ from the dead. We are promised the "indwelling" Holy Spirit (forever) at the very moment we have faith in Christ, our spirits are regenerated and we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. A dead spirit becomes an alive spirit, born again, filled with the Spirit of God, and the soul cannot be lost at this point. Question for you: When my body dies, in your understanding, where does my spirit and soul go? I mean, you aren't suggesting I will have a disembodied spirit & soul floating around somewhere, are you? Does the Holy Spirit leave me because my flesh is dead and rotting, or completely gone? Does He leave me because my spirit can't get into heaven at this juncture? Ludicrous! Am I to believe that He raises me to newness of life with the same power that raised Jesus and fills me with his own spirit, only to then set me adrift when my flesh dies, "Lost in Space", until such time as He ressurects and glorifies my body (and those of all other believers at the same time)? Poppycock! You are hung up on the Judgement Seat or The Bema Seat, as I prefer to call it. Can't wait for that day, because I've already been judged and found innocent, washed in the blood of the Lamb from the moment I believed! Hallelujah! And he won't let my spirit & soul drift, or "sleep" (though my body may "sleep") in the interim between my flesh dying and Jesus coming for his church. At that time, I will come with Him, and I'll get a new glorified body at this time. His Spirit was promised to me "forever", death of my flesh cannot separate us. Without a flesh suit, a believer can't exist on this plane, so our spirit and soul must be where the Holy Spirit is. Guess where.
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Post by boraddict on Sept 19, 2021 18:15:31 GMT -6
So it seems apparent that there are two places that we can go after death. And according to the verse referenced in a previous post one of those places is paradise and according to Rev. 20:13 the other place is death/hell. I think this doctrine comes from the idea that those accepting Christ are spiritually alive and those not accepting Christ are spiritually dead. Thus, the born-again go to paradise and those not born again go to hell.
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Post by stormyknight on Sept 19, 2021 20:12:20 GMT -6
mike , sog , stormyknight , venge , I hope I can explain adequately where I am going with this. Thanks for your patience in advance: I believe there is a missing element to all this, that I have yet to see anyone bring up. This missing element would reconcile the apparent instantaneousness of being in the Lord's presence with the apparent 'wait', making any given passage cited a matter of perspective.When someone passes on, they shed their mortal body. When they do, the step outside of what the living perceive to be time. So if we take the scenarios everyone has been discussing and apply the notion that the spirit of the person who dies immediately bypasses all elapsing time that we who are physically alive experience; it begins to make sense that someone who passes away prior to the tribulation can be hapazoed; and the 5th seal altar believers are those who are killed during the tribulation and are the same who are raised on the last day. Both are in Heaven, with the Lord; but the 5th seal saints are "put on hold" (as it were) under the altar (they do not have their physical bodies back yet). You get three scenarios: 1. Go to Heaven, Go directly to Heaven, Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200. This applies to pre-trib believers. You'll be coming back down with Jesus at the Second Coming. 2. Go to the Second Coming, Go directly to the Second Coming, Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200. This is Trib saints. 3. Go to the great White Throne Judgement, Go directly to the great White Throne Judgement, Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200. This is the unbelievers. The raising is the raising of the physical body only, as the spirit has already bypassed the intervening time between death, and said resurrection. Pre-trib saints are resurrected at the beginning of the harpazo. Trib saints are resurrected at the second coming. Unbelievers are resurrected later. "This is the first resurrection" refers to those resurrected unto life, regardless of when (temporally) they were resurrected. The second resurrection is those resurrected unto death at the white throne judgement. Basically some passages refer to the spiritual body and others to the physical, but there is not necessarily a distinction made. This causes confusion. I assert that for any given resurrection passage, it should fit into the description above. If you guys want to go through them one at a time, that would be a good exercise to verify or disprove this hypothesis. This hypothesis does not have to be correct, but I believe it adequately reconciles those passages which would otherwise not make sense. inaweofhim you caught me in an edit. the part I highlighted above is what I've believed for a long time. Time only matters to those who perceive it. That is us. Let me put it like this. When my mom passed away a few years ago, she passed away on the very same day her first daughter, my older sister, did some sixty plus years ago. It was a nice sentiment that was told around during the funeral and whatnot that now she is with her daughter and gets to hold her, etc (she was 1 1/2 years old when she drowned.) Anyway, for me in my mind, yes, the first thing my Mom got to do is be reunited with my sister, but to me, that hasn't happened yet. They are together, but in my future. If I were to die tonight, I too would be with them, but in the future of every one who lives until Jesus returns and raises the dead who are in Him. If I am alive at the rapture, I will be there moments after my Mom and sister are reunited. (My Mom was a staunch Catholic, so I'm not quite sure where she stood, but I know she believed in Jesus, but I digress. lol) One other thing on standing before the judgement seat. How do you fit John 5:24 into the picture, venge,? I was with you until you said we all have to be judged. I do believe we will stand before Jesus, as all will, but for those who are in Him, it's for a different reason. "Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24If I'm not mistaken, that is when we receive our rewards and crowns for our trials and tribulations that we endure while believing in Him in this life. "From now on there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day— and not only to me, but to all who crave His appearing." 2 Tim. 4:8"And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away." 1 Peter 5:4"I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown." Rev. 3:11"The one who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name. Rev. 3:12There are other crowns and rewards listed that will be awarded, but this is just an example.
But, just saying, I believe we have already been judged and our sins have been covered by the blood of our Savior Jesus Christ.
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Post by Gary on Sept 20, 2021 19:58:08 GMT -6
The judgment seat is never shown to happen at anyone’s death. It happens at Christ appearing. You cannot be at home with the Lord till that happens. Even Job said that he will see his redeemer after he has died and been dead over 2000 years. So if you’re gonna believe it, you need to prove without a doubt that upon death we stand before a judgment seat So wait a minute, now, I'm no theologian, but I thought basic Christian doctrine, accepted by most, is as follows: The essence of our being is triune, made in the image of God. Spirit, Soul and Body. We are a spirit, that possesses a soul (the mind, will and emotions), that lives in a body. With the spirit, we have fellowship with God, or not, based on the decision we've made, and that with eternal consequences. When we believe, it's our spirit that is regenerated, by the power of God...the same power that raised Christ from the dead. We are promised the "indwelling" Holy Spirit (forever) at the very moment we have faith in Christ, our spirits are regenerated and we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. A dead spirit becomes an alive spirit, born again, filled with the Spirit of God, and the soul cannot be lost at this point. Question for you: When my body dies, in your understanding, where does my spirit and soul go? I mean, you aren't suggesting I will have a disembodied spirit & soul floating around somewhere, are you? Does the Holy Spirit leave me because my flesh is dead and rotting, or completely gone? Does He leave me because my spirit can't get into heaven at this juncture? Ludicrous! Am I to believe that He raises me to newness of life with the same power that raised Jesus and fills me with his own spirit, only to then set me adrift when my flesh dies, "Lost in Space", until such time as He ressurects and glorifies my body (and those of all other believers at the same time)? Poppycock! You are hung up on the Judgement Seat or The Bema Seat, as I prefer to call it. Can't wait for that day, because I've already been judged and found innocent, washed in the blood of the Lamb from the moment I believed! Hallelujah! And he won't let my spirit & soul drift, or "sleep" (though my body may "sleep") in the interim between my flesh dying and Jesus coming for his church. At that time, I will come with Him, and I'll get a new glorified body at this time. His Spirit was promised to me "forever", death of my flesh cannot separate us. Without a flesh suit, a believer can't exist on this plane, so our spirit and soul must be where the Holy Spirit is. Guess where. Super important point. The spirit and soul don't cease to exist at physical death. Jesus says as much in Matthew 10:28. I also showed abundantly from Scripture that there is conscious spiritual life AFTER death for at least SOME. Furthermore, I see no argument from Scripture that disembodied spirits must be unconscious as they await their resurrection and judgment (Bema for Christians or GWT for unbelievers).
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Post by fitz on Sept 21, 2021 5:03:20 GMT -6
Please read it carefully, all in context (all of John ch. 11!). Don't spiritualize it, but read it plainly and take it at face value. Jesus teaches in a way that even the children can understand and trust it for the perfect truth that it is. He tells us plainly here:
21 Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died. (physically)
22 But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask.” (raise Lazarus physically)
23 Jesus told her, “Your brother will rise again.” (physically glorified)
24 “Yes,” Martha said, “he will rise when everyone else rises, at the last day.” (physically glorified, but "dead" until then)
(What Martha says is true, but Jesus corrects her and reveals a deeper truth...)
25 Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. (Spirit and soul! Alive forever in Jesus!)
26 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?” (NEVER!!!)
Do you believe this, people? I do! I will never die! The essence of who I am, my spirit and soul (mind, will and emotions...my personality) is inseparably joined to the living Spirit of God and will never die, or even "sleep", for that matter. I believe Jesus is referring to perpetual, conscious existence, once born again, in the presence of the Holy Spirit.
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Post by venge on Sept 23, 2021 7:35:10 GMT -6
stormyknight , I am getting back to this late because I have been working long hours. I wanted to reply when I had the chance to do so. You said, You don't see us appearing before a judgment seat? The verse you quoted is explaining salvation by faith. Not the judgment seat. That is why I quoted to you 2 Tim 4:1 That is a very blunt specific statement. Paul follows it with his coming death: He places receiving the crown at Christ appearing which coincides with his Kingdom and the judgment seat. I recognize that is is common, whether we are believers or not, that people in general think when they die they go to heaven. And Grandma is looking at us from above. But there is not 1 verse from any disciple or Christ or God or prophet that says when we die we go to heaven. Even those who study from all faiths who have degrees in these things (not that it matters), acknowledge this one point. It was never specifically taught. What was taught was God's Kingdom on earth. Bringing Eden (delight, paradise) back to earth when there will be new heavens and a new earth. So when we look back to the original question: does absent from the body mean to be instantly present with the Lord, it doesnt say that. So who is Paul talking to that we must all go to a judgment seat? Heathen, Christians or ALL? Obviously, he is speaking to his hearers who believe in reference to all mankind. And when he says "each one may receive his due to the things done while alive", how do you not go to a judgment seat if you are still alive as you and Fitz are? You must die or be raptured because all go. As you are still alive today, everything you do and say is recorded till the day you die or you are raptured. Matthew 16 backs this verse up: That is because when he comes (his appearing in 2 Tim 4:1), his judgment seat comes first and then he rewards "based upon the things he did while alive". This puts the judgment not at our physical death, but only at Christ appearing. Or Paul says again in Romans, What day? Not at our death, but a special day known to Him. And again he says, Or in his Acts In 2 Thess, Paul goes on to explain what the things we do in the body are counted for. The Christians experienced extreme persecution and in doing so they still pushed forward with the gospel. He said it would be counted as worthy for them in the Kingdom of God, not heaven. And that they would be given relief/rest when Christ appears. This same fact which appeared in verses I quoted above. Our place is to die, then the judgment, reward and finally reign with him on earth. Even Lazarus was a friend to Christ and most likely believed because he was raised back to an imperishable form. Yet wouldnt it be better for Lazarus to be in heaven then on earth? If he died, did he go to heaven with God? If so, did Christ then remove him from the wonderfulness of being there with God to bring him back to earth? Or John the Baptist, he believed, he paved the way for Christ in the power of Elijah. Yet the word says no man has ascended to heaven except Christ. That all wait for the resurrection of the just. For Job said: That is, till the things that can be shaken and moved are removed and the things that cannot be shaken may remain, that is a new heaven and a new earth for the old must be removed. or he says: So what happens when we die? Well, as I said earlier, no verse says we go to heaven upon death. But MANY point to the issue that when we die, we all must go before a judgment seat and afterwards are rewarded with the resurrection. What of Ecc. that says the spirit goes back to God who gave it? What then? Do we suggest because God is in heaven, we go to heaven because our spirit goes back to Him? What of the wicked then? That verse leads into the following: The context is that animals and man both live, breathe and die thereby returning to the ground. Yet man has knowledge of his right and wrongs. He was made in the image of God. He has a soul that "goes back to the God who gave it" upon death. But that soul is to be judged by Christ in its due time when he appears. I suppose I could say more and its possible that anything I have already stated will not cause you to think otherwise. But let me end with this from 1 Thessalonians: Christians had died. Paul didnt say, do not worry, they are in heaven with Christ our Lord where there is no pain, no tears but all joy and happiness (which is typical at funerals today). Instead, he says just like Christ died and was resurrected, these dead Christians will be resurrected too one day and that was the comfort that we should see them and they would live and get the victory over death. Not that they were happy in heaven looking down on us from above (which would be a comfort too but it was not said). He links this thought of the resurrection of their friends that died, with Christ returning in his Kingdom that they may reign with Him. That was the only comfort. Some may say the judgment seat for us is a formality that we go to in order to see how many treasures we receive. I suppose more studying on the topic is needed. But the object of absent from the body is never said to be instantly present with the Lord and it is not said for us to be heaven upon death. If it were so, I think that would be amazing. Yet scripture doesnt tell us that - just the opposite.
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Post by stormyknight on Sept 23, 2021 9:37:25 GMT -6
venge , I agree with you for the most part. There is nothing said in scripture about what happens from the time we die until we stand before Jesus Christ. And stand before Jesus Christ, we must!! To use my Mom and I as examples, I believe, as Paul did, that I will receive a crown for looking for, longing for, and "love His appearing". My Mom, on the other hand, and I hope I'm wrong, spent a life time of praying. Visibly praying in church, praying the rosary in groups or in church, etc. So,(of course I don't know what her personal thoughts were as Jesus would, so it's not my place to judge that) according to Jesus Himself, she has received her reward as per Matt. 6: "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward." v. 5or "And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words." v.7The verse I quoted before, John 5:24, tells me we, the church, will not be there to be judged, that we will be there only for rewards, our deeds will be judged, yes, like "loving His appearing" and such, but we ourselves will not be judged. What is the spirit in man? “But there is a spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.” Job 32:8“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Gen. 2:7“An oracle of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD, who stretches out the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth, who forms the spirit of man within him:” Zech. 12:1So, according to scripture, our spirit in us is the breath of God that gives us life and understanding, the ability to think. When we die: “the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” Eccl. 12:7b“When his spirit departs(where does it go? Back to God who gave it.) , he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish.” Psalm 146:4What happens between the time of death and our standing before Jesus is a mystery, plain and simple. Yes, people have been raised from the dead, Lazarus being the prime example. But what then? Nothing is said what became of him. It's a good assumption that he died later since he is not still walking around alive. What about the dead that are raised at the rapture? Are they raised to physical life and then given a spirit body? I've never read that anywhere in scripture. Sublimation of solid matter to gas is what comes to mind for me, that they go from being dead straight to being given a spirit body. Speculation for sure, but if we who are alive are given a spirit body moments after they are raised, then its a fairly good speculation. Also, where do we go when we die? Our spirit goes back to God who gave it to us. Where is God? In Heaven, right? "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8According to the Got Questions website: "The prefix omni- originates in Latin and means “all.” So, to say that God is omnipresent is to say that God is present everywhere. In many religions, God is regarded as omnipresent, whereas in both Judaism and Christianity, this view is further subdivided into the transcendence and immanence of God. Although God is not totally immersed in the fabric of creation (pantheism), He is present everywhere at all times." In my mind, we don't go "somewhere", as in another actual place, we just change our state of being. Remember Exodus 3:14 "And God says to Moses, “I AM THAT WHICH I AM.” He also says, “Thus you say to the sons of Israel: I AM has sent me to you.”. God IS.
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Post by venge on Sept 23, 2021 11:53:13 GMT -6
venge , I agree with you for the most part. There is nothing said in scripture about what happens from the time we die until we stand before Jesus Christ. And stand before Jesus Christ, we must!! To use my Mom and I as examples, I believe, as Paul did, that I will receive a crown for looking for, longing for, and "love His appearing". My Mom, on the other hand, and I hope I'm wrong, spent a life time of praying. Visibly praying in church, praying the rosary in groups or in church, etc. So,(of course I don't know what her personal thoughts were as Jesus would, so it's not my place to judge that) according to Jesus Himself, she has received her reward as per Matt. 6: "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward." v. 5or "And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words." v.7The verse I quoted before, John 5:24, tells me we, the church, will not be there to be judged, that we will be there only for rewards, our deeds will be judged, yes, like "loving His appearing" and such, but we ourselves will not be judged. What is the spirit in man? “But there is a spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.” Job 32:8“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Gen. 2:7“An oracle of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD, who stretches out the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth, who forms the spirit of man within him:” Zech. 12:1So, according to scripture, our spirit in us is the breath of God that gives us life and understanding, the ability to think. When we die: “the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” Eccl. 12:7b“When his spirit departs(where does it go? Back to God who gave it.) , he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish.” Psalm 146:4What happens between the time of death and our standing before Jesus is a mystery, plain and simple. Yes, people have been raised from the dead, Lazarus being the prime example. But what then? Nothing is said what became of him. It's a good assumption that he died later since he is not still walking around alive. What about the dead that are raised at the rapture? Are they raised to physical life and then given a spirit body? I've never read that anywhere in scripture. Sublimation of solid matter to gas is what comes to mind for me, that they go from being dead straight to being given a spirit body. Speculation for sure, but if we who are alive are given a spirit body moments after they are raised, then its a fairly good speculation. Also, where do we go when we die? Our spirit goes back to God who gave it to us. Where is God? In Heaven, right? "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8According to the Got Questions website: "The prefix omni- originates in Latin and means “all.” So, to say that God is omnipresent is to say that God is present everywhere. In many religions, God is regarded as omnipresent, whereas in both Judaism and Christianity, this view is further subdivided into the transcendence and immanence of God. Although God is not totally immersed in the fabric of creation (pantheism), He is present everywhere at all times." In my mind, we don't go "somewhere", as in another actual place, we just change our state of being. Remember Exodus 3:14 "And God says to Moses, “I AM THAT WHICH I AM.” He also says, “Thus you say to the sons of Israel: I AM has sent me to you.”. God IS. stormyknight , That is my point. There is no direct conclusiveness to us dieing and immediately going to heaven. The only fact is that we all die, we will all stand before the judgment seat and we are rewarded at his appearing and kingdom. The other fact is we reign on Earth, not heaven. But the idea that absent from the body....present from the Lord means we die and go immediately to heaven is false because it doesnt say that there or anywhere. And that was my point of why he mentions "we must all stand before the judgment seat". This is why I asked the specific question, "If the judgment seat must precede our being clothed upon (when we are with Christ), does that happen right when you die or at a specific time? And the answer was a specific time at Christ appearing in his Kingdom. That makes the idea that absent from the body is to be immediately present with the Lord out of context and wishful thinking. Here is the literal standard version (since Gary likes it) Well, I for one would rather be at home with Christ and not here either. That is what it says. It doesnt say, "to be dead = to go to Heaven". Also, about how we are when we resurrect. You said, When Jesus resurrected and was seen by the disciples, this is what was said: He was resurrected and his body was visible and touchable. And Thomas also when he saw Christ: Also recognize that when Jesus was first found, he may have appeared differently in this new body when he rose. So then, we may be given a body that is incorruptible yet can be seen and touched as Christ was given if we are modeled after his resurrection.
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Post by Gary on Sept 23, 2021 14:32:03 GMT -6
I'm trying to understand what the actual disagreement is here. Does everyone agree that the spirit and/or soul of a person persists after death? If not, how do you reconcile the numerous scriptures that indicate it does?
If you do agree it persists after death, then what is the conclusion being drawn? That this immaterial spirit is unconscious while it awaits a glorified body?
I think we can all agree that everyone will stand before a judgment seat. Some for non-salvific reasons (i.e., rewards). These would be believers saved by grace having already passed out of κρίσις judgment (Jn. 3:18; 5:24; Rm. 8:1). This would be βῆμα judgment. And unbelievers will face κρίσις judgment, but believers never will. The κρίσις judgment of believers is already done / voided.
It also doesn't say "to be dead ≠ to go to Heaven." That would be reading between the lines. The very verse quoted says we have courage / have confidence, rather, that to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD. It's not simply a wishful statement. It's a confident assertion that our wish will be granted. If you're a believer without a body you're with the LORD:
1. When Jesus' body died He asked the Father to receive His spirit. We can be confident God obliged.
2. When Stephen was murdered He asked God to receive His spirit. We can be confident God obliged.
3. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob continue to live even now (Lk. 20:38). And as we learn in Luke 16, Abraham and Lazarus, at least pre-Cross, were very much alive and conscious after death, kept in a blissful area of Hades.
4. The disembodied saints martyred during the Tribulation are kept in Heaven, conscious of what's happening on earth (Rev. 6).
5. Even in the OT, Samuel was very much alive and conscious after death and even appears to talk with Saul.
6. A plain, non-allegorized reading of 1 Peter 3:19-20 yields the same conclusion.
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Post by venge on Sept 23, 2021 18:12:26 GMT -6
I'm trying to understand what the actual disagreement is here. Does everyone agree that the spirit and/or soul of a person persists after death? If not, how do you reconcile the numerous scriptures that indicate it does? If you do agree it persists after death, then what is the conclusion being drawn? That this immaterial spirit is unconscious while it awaits a glorified body? I think we can all agree that everyone will stand before a judgment seat. Some for non-salvific reasons (i.e., rewards). These would be believers saved by grace having already passed out of κρίσις judgment (Jn. 3:18; 5:24; Rm. 8:1). This would be βῆμα judgment. And unbelievers will face κρίσις judgment, but believers never will. The κρίσις judgment of believers is already done / voided. It also doesn't say "to be dead ≠ to go to Heaven." That would be reading between the lines. The very verse quoted says we have courage / have confidence, rather, that to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD. It's not simply a wishful statement. It's a confident assertion that our wish will be granted. If you're a believer without a body you're with the LORD: 1. When Jesus' body died He asked the Father to receive His spirit. We can be confident God obliged. 2. When Stephen was murdered He asked God to receive His spirit. We can be confident God obliged. 3. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob continue to live even now (Lk. 20:38). And as we learn in Luke 16, Abraham and Lazarus, at least pre-Cross, were very much alive and conscious after death, kept in a blissful area of Hades. 4. The disembodied saints martyred during the Tribulation are kept in Heaven, conscious of what's happening on earth (Rev. 6). 5. Even in the OT, Samuel was very much alive and conscious after death and even appears to talk with Saul. 6. A plain, non-allegorized reading of 1 Peter 3:19-20 yields the same conclusion. I dont think anyone said a soul doesnt persist after death and I dont recall anyone debating consciousness whether the soul is or isnt... You can play devil's advocate "to be dead ≠ to go to Heaven", but we cannot emphatically say we go to heaven immediately when we die, if at all. It is not 100% biblically supported. I think enough has been said on the subject in the thread that I don't need regurgitate the main point over and over which you didnt place here. Paul preached the resurrection, not going to heaven. Paul preached seeing our dead friends again when they are resurrected, not when we die and we magically see them in heaven. I guess heaven has streets of gold too..../sigh Billy Graham says: Sorry Billy and Sunday school teachers. Another fallacy. An easy reading would be the New Jerusalem descending out of heaven from God as the lamb's wife to the earth in language full of symbols.
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Post by Gary on Sept 24, 2021 9:11:16 GMT -6
Cool. Thanks for the response. I'm just trying to get at the conclusion so I can understand what/if there is any disagreement. Sounds like we all agree souls persist after death (or else Jesus' promises of presently-possessed eternal/continuous life to the believer would be false promises). I guess my follow up question would be, where then do you think souls go when a person dies? If they don't go to Heaven, then where? Hades? Earth, like ghosts? I see direct scriptural support for disembodied spirits being held in Heaven, Hades, or even on earth depending on the circumstances.
1. We see both wicked and righteous human spirits held in Hades pre-resurrection of Christ (Lk. 16:19-31; Ps. 49:15; prob. also Lk. 23:43; 1 Pt. 3:19-20; 1 Sam. 28:1-25).
2. We see disembodied non-human spirits / demons held on earth before the judgment (Mt. 8:28-31, etc).
3. We see disembodied righteous human spirits post-resurrection of Christ in Heaven (Rev. 6:9-11; Rev. 20:4; prob. also Acts 7:59; 2 Cor. 12:1-4, etc).
4. Finally, we are given confident assurance that disembodied believers pre-resurrection are with the LORD (2 Cor. 5:8; 1 Thess. 4:14). If being in the manifest presence of the LORD isn't Heaven, I don't know what is. The LORD's throne is in Heaven (Acts 7:49; Rev. 4-5).
As with many theological debates, I think there can be too much splitting of hairs. Sure, Paul (and the other authors) preached the resurrection, but it's not a mutually exclusive teaching, nor does the resurrection preclude Heaven. They preached many true things. Scripture is clear that [at least some] disembodied spirits are conscious after death, but before their resurrection. Scripture is also clear that disembodied spirits dwell in Hades, Heaven, or even on the earth (see above). And yes, we'll get to enjoy a renewed earth, but we'll also get to enjoy New Jerusalem, which elsewhere is called heavenly Jerusalem (Heb. 12:18-24; see also Gal. 4:26-27), a place where angels literally dwell.
It's not just a new earth that we're looking forward to, but a new heaven as well (2 Pt. 3:13; Rev. 21:1; Isa. 65:17).
And, very importantly, our new bodies will be real and material like Jesus', but will not be earthly. We will be like Jesus (1 Jn. 3:2) possessing every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms (Eph. 1:3) including sitting with Him on His throne (Rev. 3:21). His throne is in Heaven (Acts 2:33; 7:49; 7:55; Rev. 4-5). We are promised to be seated with Him in the heavenly realms just as the elders are (Eph. 2:6; Rev. 3:21).
Moving beyond disembodied spirits, we see resurrected, glorified people on earth, but also in Heaven. We see the elders in the Throne Room of Rev. 4-5 (coming from every nation - Rev. 5:9; and possessing what was promised to the churches in Rev. 2-3). We see a different group of glorified saints in the Throne Room in Rev. 7:9-14. We see another reference to saints in Heaven in Rev. 12:10, 12. The author of Hebrews says as much in Heb. 12:22-24 where the Church is in Heaven, having their names written in Heaven (cf. Lk. 10:20).
So based on Scripture, 100%, I see no such limits imposed on the text or on God's promises to us. It's not "this or that," it's both. We're promised a new heaven, new earth, and new Jerusalem. We're promised eternal life now. We're promised to be with the LORD at death.
Blessings.
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Post by stormyknight on Oct 6, 2021 12:10:41 GMT -6
First of all, I want to apologize for not getting back to this. I haven't logged in for awhile and did not know I had been tagged. To quote my favorite contemporary thinker, Jordan Peterson, "Another way to think about it is..." lol You're right, Gary , I don't think there is much disagreement here, just how we think about it. One of the things I would like to point out on a scripture you listed, Luke 20:38 "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.", I believe you're point was that "all are alive." But, please note the part right before that. "for to Him". Being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent has it's perks, right? That, in my mind, is part of what is meant by "I AM". To us, one who has died is just that, dead. Whether we like to believe that they are with the Lord or just in the grave is our belief. It is really of no consequence, because we(believers) all come together when Jesus Christ returns. THAT is the good news! I think a lot of the confusion has come from all the different translations of words. In this case, the word Nephesh. It's meaning has been and can be applied to many different aspects of us humans as well as animals: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion. I think of it as the individual and everything that makes up that person. Memories, experiences, emotions, behaviors, etc. We are all unique in our nephesh. Even animals. Of all the dogs you've ever had, have any ever been exactly the same? No, they all have their own personalities, as do all animals. We know that when God created Adam, "the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul(nephesh)." Gen. 2:7. Also, "there is a spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.” Job 32:8, and upon death, "the spirit returns to God who gave it.” Eccl. 12:7b Just from these three verses we can discern that the breath of God brings life to the physical and gives us understanding, making us a living being, a nephesh. And that breath of the Almighty is our spirit, not to be confused with the Holy Spirit, which when we become believers is joined with our spirit and we then have eternal life, even though our physical body dies. But when we die, our spirit, the breath of the Almighty, goes back to God who gave it to us. Is our nephesh coupled with that spirit after death? If so, where in scripture does it say this? We do know our nephesh can be destroyed, Matt. 10:28. Which, by the way, is what I think people get confused with eternal torment in Hell. If one is destroyed, the destruction is eternal, in other words, there is no coming back from being destroyed. So I still think it is just how we think of death. Perhaps our Nephesh is like a flashdrive with all our experiences and memories, etc. and when God resurrects us(if we die before His return), he downloads those things into our new body. To Him it's not something that requires time as we know it, (like downloading something!!lol) It's just instantaneous. I could be way out in left field, but I know we'll all laugh about it when we get there!!
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