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Post by boraddict on Jul 24, 2021 13:29:45 GMT -6
You make nice boxes for the options, but you limit the possibilities to the ones YOU see, which leaves no room for error in your view. I see it as it says. I don't have to declare the first woe, it is done in scripture, I don't see that it has to involve the things you point out that you see. There is no spot that declares the king and the angel that opens the pit have to be or are the same. Nor is there anywhere that says if they aren't it is the first woe or 2 angels etc. Thats how you see it would have to be. I just read the verses and assume they tell it as I read it. If I try tying them in as I go and start to create a picture/pictures of the events, it affects how I'll see the events after.  Ok, 8:2 covers all 7 angels with trumpets, not just the fifth. So does 8:6. So those 2 are irrelevant to the individual angels except to point out there are indeed 7 and then they are all preparing. So I don't use the description of the whole to identify anything other than the number of them, they all get addressed individually as we go, so I let the individual descriptions control the narrative. 8:13 just says an angel or another angel, but makes no reference to it being one of the 7 with the trumpets. Those are identified all through by number when referenced. So I rely on the actual verse that names the 5th angel, which indicates he sounds and gets they key to open/opens the pit. I don't read anymore into it than it says. Sorry if that isn't enough, but I do my best to stick to the descriptions and wording as it is written without trying to decipher it beyond, unless it is needed to understand. In this case it is pretty straight forward to me and needs no interpretation. IMO  All that said, I'm not trying to convince you, just showing what is openly stated, verses what can be inferred or understood. Some are stricter in interpretation than others, I tend towards stricter, then interpret if I need more to make it clear. It reads very clear to me through the first 12 books or so, so I don't interpret much into them. But thats just me.  , thank you and that is fair enough. There are some verses that show the "star" to be a person as in Num. 24:17, and Rev. 22:16, while other verses show the star to be literal as in Matt. 2:9-10. With regard to Rev. 9:1, you hold that the star is literal, and that the one receiving the key is the angel with the trumpet. Then in Rev. 9:2 this angel opened the bottomless pit releasing those of Rev. 3-10 and that they had a king over them that is the angel of the bottomless pit (Rev. 9:11). And that this angel of the bottomless pit (v. 9:11) is not the angel with the trumpet that was given the key (v. 9:1). In association with Verses 9:1-11 you maintain that a matched verse to Rev. 9:1 is Rev. 20:1, wherein an angel came down to earth having the key of the bottomless pit. However, in the first case the angel opened and released the bottomless pit, and in the second case (Rev. 20:1-3) the angel having the key bound up the devil and the bottomless pit. So let's say that your analysis is correct, the case seems to be that the bottomless pit is opened and released in Verses 9:1-11 and then closed and sealed in Verses 20:1-3. This shows that the verses, 9:1, 20:1, are not the same but are book ends to the story of the bottomless pit; one opening and one closing. I think this is what you are saying and it is a good find; good analysis. Please correct me if I have made an error in the above summation. What should we look at next? |
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servantofthelord
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 24, 2021 14:51:01 GMT -6
You make nice boxes for the options, but you limit the possibilities to the ones YOU see, which leaves no room for error in your view. I see it as it says. I don't have to declare the first woe, it is done in scripture, I don't see that it has to involve the things you point out that you see. There is no spot that declares the king and the angel that opens the pit have to be or are the same. Nor is there anywhere that says if they aren't it is the first woe or 2 angels etc. Thats how you see it would have to be. I just read the verses and assume they tell it as I read it. If I try tying them in as I go and start to create a picture/pictures of the events, it affects how I'll see the events after. Ok, 8:2 covers all 7 angels with trumpets, not just the fifth. So does 8:6. So those 2 are irrelevant to the individual angels except to point out there are indeed 7 and then they are all preparing. So I don't use the description of the whole to identify anything other than the number of them, they all get addressed individually as we go, so I let the individual descriptions control the narrative. 8:13 just says an angel or another angel, but makes no reference to it being one of the 7 with the trumpets. Those are identified all through by number when referenced. So I rely on the actual verse that names the 5th angel, which indicates he sounds and gets they key to open/opens the pit. I don't read anymore into it than it says. Sorry if that isn't enough, but I do my best to stick to the descriptions and wording as it is written without trying to decipher it beyond, unless it is needed to understand. In this case it is pretty straight forward to me and needs no interpretation. IMO All that said, I'm not trying to convince you, just showing what is openly stated, verses what can be inferred or understood. Some are stricter in interpretation than others, I tend towards stricter, then interpret if I need more to make it clear. It reads very clear to me through the first 12 books or so, so I don't interpret much into them. But thats just me. , thank you and that is fair enough. Before I comment or discuss further, I'd like to just exhort you a bit, as I feel as Christians it is a thing we don't do enough of. It elates me to see your obvious sincere desire to understand scriptures! This is an admirable quality and quite endearing. Your love for the Lord is expressed very obviously in you zeal. Whether I agree with all your opinions or not, I certainly appreciate your dedication. :) Ok, on to the scriptures ...
There are some verses that show the "star" to be a person as in Num. 24:17, and Rev. 22:16, while other verses show the star to be literal as in Matt. 2:9-10. While I see how you can come to this conclusion, since stars are mentioned all through the book as well as others, it is not a given that the particular verses you provide are a direct link to the individual star we are talking about.Were there a direct quote of revelations or even a really closely worded description, I'd lean towards linking them, but as it is, it is a reference point to any of the "stars" at best.With regard to Rev. 9:1, you hold that the star is literal, and that the one receiving the key is the angel with the trumpet. Then in Rev. 9:2 this angel opened the bottomless pit releasing those of Rev. 3-10 and that they had a king over them that is the angel of the bottomless pit (Rev. 9:11). Here again, you assume a link that is not in any way implicitly stated. I haven't begun to link the letters to the churches, as they randomly cite possible places all throughout the rest of the book. Once I've established as best I can, without making links that don't have enough descriptions or support for me to be comfortable with their order, then I'll look at the letters more closely to see how they fit or describe events. I'm not there yat, so I'd simply be speculating at possibilities, without enough references to accurately "prove" the links.And that this angel of the bottomless pit (v. 9:11) is not the angel with the trumpet that was given the key (v. 9:1). I don't actually hold the sort of hard opinions you may seem to think. What I am saying is that it is not stated clearly enough to jump to the conclusion that the 2 are the same. I'm open to the possibility, but not determining it to be so. Once I begin to do that, it would keep me from being objective about what ever I read beyond that point, therefore coloring my opinions. I try very hard to avoid that. So, I take the verses as they seem to say, leaving open the possibility for clarification, should I see an obviously worded or stated link later. such as the one in 20.In association with Verses 9:1-11 you maintain that a matched verse to Rev. 9:1 is Rev. 20:1, wherein an angel came down to earth having the key of the bottomless pit. However, in the first case the angel opened and released the bottomless pit, and in the second case (Rev. 20:1-3) the angel having the key bound up the devil and the bottomless pit. So let's say that your analysis is correct, the case seems to be that the bottomless pit is opened and released in Verses 9:1-11 and then closed and sealed in Verses 20:1-3. This shows that the verses, 9:1, 20:1, are not the same but are book ends to the story of the bottomless pit; one opening and one closing. I think this is what you are saying and it is a good find; good analysis. Please correct me if I have made an error in the above summation. This is a correct view of what I was "trying to say", though I believe I may have misstated it. I get tongue tied at times, part of getting old, I try to limit it, but mistakes happen. glad you saw through to the point I was making.What should we look at next? Give me a few minutes to review where I left off and compare to my notes and I'll put up some more hypothesis to examine. I thoroughly enjoy that you challenge, but still maintain an un-rigid view in this! :) |
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servantofthelord
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 24, 2021 16:04:54 GMT -6
in 11:15 Christs reign begins! - 15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, " The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."
Then in the same paragraph and the same description - 11:18 - 18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth." -
So, after the sounding of the 7th trumpet, the wrath has already come, the Lord has begun his reign and judgement is happening. The next line shows that the heavens open and the temple is coming 11:19 - 19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm. -WAYPOINT 12-
Here I will simply point out that the wrath has come, the pit opened, the beast released, judgement has happened, and the 1,000 year reign has already begun.
So, picking up where we/I left off, (above), there are a few questions to address. I assume tentatively, that we all agree on a few things about the end days.
That the Reign of Christ doesn't begin till (1 - the beast is defeated (2 - the rapture has come, (3 - the dead in Christ are raised (4 - the wrath has been completed, or at the least is well under way (5 - Babylon has fallen
Now here is where there are going to be people who just wont recognize the literally stated facts from the verses to this point. 11:15 above clearly defines that the kingdom has arrived, that he is going to reign forever and ever. There's just no getting this wrong without changing meanings and forcing things.
Further after that we see it also clearly stated that (in past tenses) The nations were enraged, the wrath has come, as well as the judgement of the dead AND His bond-servants are rewarded, as well as the saints and those small and great. PLUS, the destruction of those that destroy the earth.
Once we accept this, like it or not, scripture clearly states it, then we can view the remaining chapters, till they meet with the things above, as having to take place within this period already described. What we know happens after this, is the ascending of New Jerusalem, then the events that occur during or after the 1,000 year reign.
Which only are addressed starting in chapters 21 and further in 22. So, by elimination we know that the descriptions of 12 thru 20 are describing things which took place within the first 12 chapters. They are not described specifically at times, but they had to occur then.
John seems to have first focussed on the seals and the trumpets, which laid the framework and the order of things, then filled in what took place within, in more detail afterwards in the remaining chapters. When the descriptions fill in to the point they are meeting where the chronology left off, then he finishes with describing the New Earth and the things to follow.
Viewing it in this light, not only makes sense, it explains the repeated descriptions, is no longer difficult to find order, it doesn't hav any obviously seeming contradictions, it fits with prophetic scripture still, and it is quite similar to the way an author writes a book.
The only serious difficulty becomes ordering the events in where they actually occur in the first 12 chapters. But even here we have help from scripture and John. We know that some things happen in a certain order, even if we didn't know the timing. The beast isn't released after Babylon's fall, etc. So we take the knowns first and refer to the obvious fits, then see what remains and how it fits before placing it in the chronology.
The easiest one is the judgement. It is listed at trumpet 7, so we know that the events starting at chapter 19, are occurring at the 7th seal. They follow orderly through to the end from there, so that establishes the entire books order and events. From 12 thru 18, this is the only things left to decide. The rest has been laid out for us, we just didn't see it.
I'll leave this here at this point for comments and discussion before I try to fill in the last bit.
Again, thanks for reading and I hope this helps to clear up some things for some people. This entire study has helped me enormously. :)
Be blessed!
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Post by boraddict on Jul 24, 2021 16:44:01 GMT -6
.... The easiest one is the judgement. It is listed at trumpet 7, so we know that the events starting at chapter 19, are occurring at the 7th seal (you mean trumpet). They follow orderly through to the end from there, so that establishes the entire books order and events. From 12 thru 18, this is the only things left to decide. The rest has been laid out for us, we just didn't see it. .... Thank you servantofthelord, and that is a big bite into the book. So let's go with that, that the 1st half of the book, Chapters 1-11, have some order, and that the remaining Chapters, 12-19 fit into that order parenthetically. It is reasonable to conclude that the seals are in order and that they are followed by the trumpets. It is also reasonable as you have stated that Chapter 19 is parenthetical to the ending of Chapter 11. And, since Chapters 17 and 18 are in series to Chapter 19, then these two chapters should precede the ending of Chapter 11. That is, some of the parenthetical chapters (12-19) are in series as follows: 12 13 14 15-16, these are in series wherein 15 is directly followed by 16 17-19, these are in series wherein 17 is directly followed by 18 that is directly followed by 19 As stated, since Chapter 19 is parenthetical to the ending of Chapter 11, then Chapters 17 and 18 should precede that ending. |
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servantofthelord
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 24, 2021 17:02:52 GMT -6
.... The easiest one is the judgement. It is listed at trumpet 7, so we know that the events starting at chapter 19, are occurring at the 7th seal (you mean trumpet). They follow orderly through to the end from there, so that establishes the entire books order and events. From 12 thru 18, this is the only things left to decide. The rest has been laid out for us, we just didn't see it. .... Thank you servantofthelord, and that is a big bite into the book. So let's go with that, that the 1st half of the book, Chapters 1-11, have some order, and that the remaining Chapters, 12-19 fit into that order parenthetically. It is reasonable to conclude that the seals are in order and that they are followed by the trumpets. It is also reasonable as you have stated that Chapter 19 is parenthetical to the ending of Chapter 11. And, since Chapters 17 and 18 are in series to Chapter 19, then these two chapters should precede the ending of Chapter 11. That is, some of the parenthetical chapters (12-19) are in series as follows: 12 13 14 15-16, these are in series wherein 15 is directly followed by 16 17-19, these are in series wherein 17 is directly followed by 18 that is directly followed by 19 As stated, since Chapter 19 is parenthetical to the ending of Chapter 11, then Chapters 17 and 18 should precede that ending. Thanks for catching the mistake! I did mean trumpet. LOL As to the rest, from memory, without looking back into my notes, you seem to be pretty close if not correct. I'm still working on the "mesh' of them, so I haven't gotten enough pieces yet to be very clear, but your on the right track and your following the lead of the scriptural "storyline", so it's just a matter of comparison, reference and a bit of reorganization and then an overall examination, to confirm that it all works without any forced alterations. Great job! |
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servantofthelord
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 24, 2021 17:22:09 GMT -6
boraddict , Now the trick is finding "waypoints" to confirm the what/where of the rest, we know vaguely, which may be all we can without guessing, but perhaps a little more study will reveal some interlocking things to help it fit properly. But either way, I'm just happy to be able to at least be confident that I'm seeing more of the book than I did. Which was the whole reason I began this long process. :P
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Post by boraddict on Jul 24, 2021 17:34:14 GMT -6
servantofthelord, please notice that at Rev. 17:1 John suggests that Chapter 16 is followed by Chapter 17. This would imply that the series of chapters goes from 15 to 16 and then to 17 and then to 18 and then to 19. It may be the case that the bowls (vials) of Chapter 16 are in the four trumpets of Chapter 8. And that Chapters 17-18 are in the 1st and 2nd woes of Chapter 9. This would also tend to place Chapter 15 in Chapter 8 with the trumpets getting ready to sound. In short, Chapter 15 would be the prep followed by the bowls (vials) of Chapter 16 in Chapter 8. Then Chapters 17-18 would place in the 1st and 2nd woes of Chapter 9. The order would be something like: Chapter 15 in the prep of Chapter 8 Chapter 16 in the 4 trumpets of Chapter 8 Chapter 17 in the 1st woe of Chapter 9 Chapter 18 in the 2nd woe of Chapter 9 Chapter 19 in the 3rd woe of Chapter 11
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servantofthelord
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 24, 2021 17:36:08 GMT -6
boraddict, One possibility I'm looking at - In 12:12 there is reference to a woe. - Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time." I'm still flexible, but this would certainly fit in at the 6th seal point. Where the earth shakes the stars fall and everyone flees God's wrath. Perhaps the stars falling and etc, is representative of Satan and his angels being cast down to the earth? Just an idea as yet to be established firmly.
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servantofthelord
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 24, 2021 17:38:50 GMT -6
servantofthelord , please notice that at Rev. 17:1 John suggests that Chapter 16 is followed by Chapter 17. This would imply that the series of chapters goes from 15 to 16 and then to 17 and then to 18 and then to 19. It may be the case that the bowls (vials) of Chapter 16 are in the four trumpets of Chapter 8. And that Chapters 17-18 are in the 1st and 2nd woes of Chapter 9. This would also tend to place Chapter 15 in Chapter 8 with the trumpets getting ready to sound. In short, Chapter 15 would be the prep followed by the bowls (vials) of Chapter 16 in Chapter 8. Then Chapters 17-18 would place in the 1st and 2nd woes of Chapter 9. The order would be something like: Chapter 15 in the prep of Chapter 8 Chapter 16 in the 4 trumpets of Chapter 8 Chapter 17 in the 1st woe of Chapter 9 Chapter 18 in the 2nd woe of Chapter 9 Chapter 19 in the 3rd woe of Chapter 11 Sound reasoning, i'll have a look. Perhaps the woe I mentioned in the last post is a descriptive rather than literal woe. Will look to see if it fits better elsewhere too. Great pickup! the 12:12 line fits much better into 9:1, and has the added benefit of being mentioned as a woe and fits the opening of the pit and the armies being released, since they were just cast down. |
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servantofthelord
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 24, 2021 17:52:33 GMT -6
boraddict, one other thing I was looking at perhaps the creature of 4:7 -7 The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle. is the same as the reference in 8:13 - 13 Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!" and possibly the same as the one in 12:14 - 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. It's at the throne in the beginning, then it flies through mid heaven warning, then saves the woman from the beast?
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servantofthelord
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 24, 2021 18:05:38 GMT -6
between the fifth and the sixth trumpets is when the "mighty" angel appears. Since this angel appears to be greater than the rest, it would follow that this is Michael, who was earlier fighting the war in heaven. as per 12:7, then they are cast down, which as we were talking about earlier in the fifth trumpet the star you posited had the key. Well, if the dark angels were being cast out at that pint, then that would then make sense, since one would be given the key to open the pit, releasing the armies of locusts, etc. which then leads to satan's casting which corresponds to the first woe mentioned at the end of the 5th trumpet as well.
See, told ya I wasn't set on a fixed opinion of the star, provided it fit without coaxing it. ;)
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servantofthelord
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 24, 2021 18:17:57 GMT -6
Chapter 17 must happen immediately after the death of the 2 witnesses in Jerusalem. Which also would indicate the AoD happens then because 17:8 says - 8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
So it is about to come up. And in 11:7 they say he arrives at the end of the 2 witnesses prophesying and kills them. -7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.
These just fit well as both are declarative of the time of arrival, so they must be referring to the same event. Said event is the death of the 2 witnesses which will bring on the AoD/or is the AoD as it fits the description i've been given of this event as well.
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servantofthelord
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 24, 2021 18:58:31 GMT -6
I'd like to point out one further thing that doesn't affect the work I'm/we're doing on this study, but is mingled into it. One of the few signs I'm fairly certain of, which is a reason I came here to this site to begin with, is the sign that Gary and the team identified, in their article on the "Fig Tree Generation". Of the woman straining with birth pains and the dragon waiting to devour it. That is a very particular type sign that doesn't randomly occur. Props to them for identifying it!
Once this chronology is done to the best it can be without plain guess work, we will be able to determine, not the time, but at least the place w are now. In relationship to the events that occur in the book. It won't pinpoint with any accuracy a date, which I never expected to do from any stretch. But it will confirm how close we may be to the rapture and the second coming.
I'm not knowledgeable enough in the fig tree scenario to be able to contribute much to it. but if it seems to parallel this, it would help to confirm both. It would also help us to know what signs may have already happened that we can in a way confirm, or even that some have happened that we may have missed.
So, there is much benefit to be gained in getting this scripturally and references wise right. Thanks to any and all who contribute!
PA- It might also help any who are still here after the rapture to stand firm and persevere, for God still makes room for all who turn to him up to the day of judgement.
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servantofthelord
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 24, 2021 21:40:48 GMT -6
Another possible correlation to look at, not sure it's related specifically but the timing/time is very similar. In 12:6 after the woman gives birth it says - 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. - This is roughly 3.5 years.
Then in 13:5 after the beast from the sea comes it says - 5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two * months was given to him. - once again, this is 3.5 years.
This is followed by 13:7 - 7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. -
Since this says he's given power to overcome the saints, it could possibly be another look at the AoD, when the beast is given power to kill the 2 witnesses and continue to deceive and cause all to worship him but god's people. This is also a good waypoint to mark. Here we haven't yet been raptured since it indicates those who are in the book won't be deceived. He couldn't deceive us if we were in heaven already.
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servantofthelord
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 24, 2021 21:58:57 GMT -6
I know I'm posting a lot of stuff, but this way I/we can look at them individually or whatever and examine their places and tie ins. Also boraddict wanted more to work on, so I'll give plenty to keep us busy. LOL I tend to see when things are repeated either identically or similarly. Authors choose words, not at random, but to convey messages. Revelations does so all through. So when there are such repetitive wording, they bear a look at. Such as in 13:10 - 10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.Then again in 14:12 - 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. These seem to either be describing the same event or similar ones for they carry the same specific wording and the same connotation. Not enough for me to assume an overlap, but worth a look at. |
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