servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
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Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 22, 2021 22:39:26 GMT -6
During my study of Revelation, I seem to have had a few of my own. I have read this book at least a dozen times in the past months, but recently a few oddities began to pop out at me. It began when I noticed that there appeared to be a couple phrases that repeated. But they are separated in what would be considered the "chronologic" order of the book. Since I was busy doing referencing and the like, I filed it under "curiosity" in my mental databanks and continued my study. But like a mosquito bite, it kept irritating me and as I continued in my study, I came across another, then another, then another. At this point I realized this was obviously more than coincidence, and was for some reason demanding my attention. So I marked the obvious ones, and compared/contrasted the surrounding verses. i'll spare you the long version, for it is a quite seemingly easy process, but involved a lot of steps and basic trial and error, along with a rainbow of color coding and cutting and pasting scripture references all over. It has slowly sort of organically formed a tentative outline of sorts, which I am still in the midst of doing. But I figured I'd share the basics, in the event someones brain is as weird as mine and sees a similar "picture". The book appears to me to be a few different parts. The introduction to it. The letters to the churches. Then a complete chronological layout of the end days, with the seals and the trumpets as the focal points around which the whole thing is told. We know it begins with the seals, as it couldn't do otherwise and make any sense at all. And it is very clear that it is laid out in language that is literal enough to be clear it is in a specific order. It also makes clear that the ending seems to be after the seventh trumpet, for it quotes scripture saying that it is so as taught to the prophets, and saying it is the end of god's mystery. We can't have two endings or two beginnings or the same prophesies filled twice. It also is plainly stated in those first 12ish books just when the wrath begins. Also, when heaven opens and the ark of the covenant appears. It also declares judgement has begun as well as God's reign on earth. Those things don't happen more than once. So, the remaining books, up to the descriptions of the 1,000 year reign, are descriptions of events that happen at some point within the first 12ish books. Since they also contain "waypoints" or markers, like phrases, events, etc. that single them out, and those are also repeated, it cannot be a simple chronologically segmented remainder, as the first was. Unless we believe John ignores the angel telling him not to worship him, and does it again and gets the same warning and instruction twice. Or that the angels didn't realize Babylon has already been declared as fallen and just declared it over again, and many other such things which repeat out of order. Not to mention, how many keys to the abyss/pit are there? It was already opened and never closed, then the key is given and it is opened again? So, if your reading this and it seems fun or you see what I do, help me see where in the seals and trumpets the rest fit, without "making" them fit. Perhaps we can learn more about the book then we do now, and get a better understanding of the end that we are probably in now. If your going to do this to "PROVE" your personally held theologies, feel free, but please don't use this thread to do it. I am only interested in what the book actually bears out, without putting mine or anyone else's personal interpretations into it to do so. If it agrees with any of them, great, if not, that's fine by me too. Opinion based on what you read in the book is good, buy not opinion you read into it. When I have a bit more time I'll make a listing of the double mentions and the obvious overlaps in descriptions and or events that I have already, so you all will have the info I do to work with. Thats if you don't feel like doing an intensive study to find them yourself, like me. I'm a bit stubborn at study sometimes. LOL Like seeing/finding for myself.  Happy hunting and be blessed! |
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Post by boraddict on Jul 23, 2021 0:32:45 GMT -6
servantofthelord , Go ahead and show the markers because I would just be guessing to find them; you referenced Rev. 19:10, 22:8 and Rev. 14:8, 18:2 and Rev. 9:1, 20:1. Those are the three that you mentioned that are John kneeling to the angel, Babylon is fallen, and the keys to the bottomless pit. The bottomless pit by the way is the populations of the earth that are not in the book of life and this is shown in the riddle at Rev. 17:8. Please notice in this verse (17:8) that the beast comes from the populations of the earth that are not in the book of life and then he goes to destruction (perdition) for his final resting place. From this it is clear that the bottomless pit and destruction are two different things. Another interesting point is that the angel of the bottomless pit is the king that presides over them (Rev. 9:11). This indicates that the locusts and so forth in the 1st woe of Chapter 9 are in fact people (Rev. 9:3). Also, the star that fell from heaven in Rev. 9:1 is given the key of the bottomless pit. And, since the bottomless pit is the populations of the earth then this star is the angel of the bottomless pit that is their king (v. 9:11). I mention this information about the bottomless pit because it shows that the angel of the bottomless pit (Rev. 9:11) is not the angel with the 5th trumpet (Rev. 9:1). In other words, the angel coming down from heaven that is the 5th angel with trumpet (v. 9:1) is the angel coming down from heaven in Rev. 20:1, but not the angel of the bottomless pit (Rev. 9:11). And, that the giving of the key in Rev. 9:1 from the 5th angel to the angel of the bottomless pit is not the same thing as the angel having the key and casting the dragon into the bottomless pit (v. 20:1-3). What I am saying is that Rev. 20:1 is not a repeat of Rev. 9:1 but the book end of that verse. That is, Verse 9:1 is on one end and Verse 20:1 on the other; they are a matched pair but not a repeat.
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 23, 2021 12:25:24 GMT -6
servantofthelord , Go ahead and show the markers because I would just be guessing to find them; you referenced Rev. 19:10, 22:8 and Rev. 14:8, 18:2 and Rev. 9:1, 20:1. Those are the three that you mentioned that are John kneeling to the angel, Babylon is fallen, and the keys to the bottomless pit. The bottomless pit by the way is the populations of the earth that are not in the book of life and this is shown in the riddle at Rev. 17:8. Please notice in this verse (17:8) that the beast comes from the populations of the earth that are not in the book of life and then he goes to destruction (perdition) for his final resting place. From this it is clear that the bottomless pit and destruction are two different things. While I understand why you believe this to be true, this is an interpretation of what is written, not what is actually written. I'll explain better in a different part of my response.Another interesting point is that the angel of the bottomless pit is the king that presides over them (Rev. 9:11). This indicates that the locusts and so forth in the 1st woe of Chapter 9 are in fact people (Rev. 9:3). Also, the star that fell from heaven in Rev. 9:1 is given the key of the bottomless pit. And, since the bottomless pit is the populations of the earth then this star is the angel of the bottomless pit that is their king (v. 9:11). Same point as above.I mention this information about the bottomless pit because it shows that the angel of the bottomless pit (Rev. 9:11) is not the angel with the 5th trumpet (Rev. 9:1). In other words, the angel coming down from heaven that is the 5th angel with trumpet (v. 9:1) is the angel coming down from heaven in Rev. 20:1, but not the angel of the bottomless pit (Rev. 9:11). And, that the giving of the key in Rev. 9:1 from the 5th angel to the angel of the bottomless pit is not the same thing as the angel having the key and casting the dragon into the bottomless pit (v. 20:1-3). What I am saying is that Rev. 20:1 is not a repeat of Rev. 9:1 but the book end of that verse. That is, Verse 9:1 is on one end and Verse 20:1 on the other; they are a matched pair but not a repeat. The verse actually says in the 9:1, the angel is given the key. Then in 20:1 it again says the angel is given the key. If they are "book ends" then one happens first the other last. like book ends. But they can't happen this way, since the angel has the key already. So it is by definition a repeat, or retelling. They are both describing the same event. So, if your following the book as a chronology, what has already taken place in the start, cannot take place again at the ending. Either they both are descriptions of the same event, or there are 2 abyss's and 2 keys. The latter makes no sense according to scripture or the book of Revelation, so it only leaves the former to be true.
As to the abyss and pit representing different things. This is a good example of why english is a poor language for scriptural study. We don't have the vocabulary that most languages do. The word used in both places translates as abyss, but one has the added "pit" word to it. but they don't carry separate meaning in the original language. It's similar with the word we use "hell", that word is used all through OUR version, but the Greek uses several different words, which mean different things. But we only have "hell". It directly affects how we interpret the verses. Love is the same as well. There are I think five different "forms" of love in the Greek, but only one in English. So we lose the intent with our translation to English. Ironically, Spanish, Latin and most other languages have multiple words as well, just not English. It is a "lazy" language.
To elaborate on my first comment, I'm not stating whether your interpretation is correct or incorrect, just that it is not a specifically stated fact in the book of Revelation.
I do my personal studies in a layered type approach, which helps me to avoid drawing conclusions as to what a verse "means", unless directly stated. I first look at the actual verses, as they are written. If something is not directly stated to be other than it says, I don't pursue what that "meaning" may be, till I have completed the book. Sometimes, like in the case of the candlesticks, scripture will interpret itself to tell me exactly what it means. Other times it does not. When there is no direct explanation, then I keep an open and broad "understanding" of what it may mean, according to the context of the stated verse and the surrounding verses.
If I feel that is not a sufficient understanding, then I look through the rest of the bible for references, in this case, since it is a New Testament book, I'd search the NT books first, then the OT if needed. By doing this, I prevent myself from drawing a conclusion that will affect how I view other verses. I try to always fall back to the literal, unless it is specifically stated otherwise. When interpretation is needed, I do so with the understanding that what ever my interpretation may be of this particular word in a verse, it doesn't automatically mean everywhere else it is used in scripture, it applies there too. Using an "across the board" assumption, can cause many to misinterpret things from other books based on a single incorrect "meaning" from one verse. It dominoes into an entire theory, based primarily off of one interpretation. Which mean if you make one easy mistake, your whole theological theory has to be questioned.
Hope this made sense, it seemed best to explain what I meant, rather than just say "that is not scriptural". Because it tends to be misunderstood, what the statement means. I'll try to put up a working list of things that are repeated/restated, I have a great deal of "notes" and color codes and etc, to dig through to give actual verses over just topics and/or words. Thanks for your response and interest, in any event! Be blessed! |
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 23, 2021 19:08:32 GMT -6
Before I dig through and list the "doubles" I have found, I just want to be clear on something, to head off any offenses being taken or misunderstandings as to my intent/statements.
I am not seeking to point out contradictions in scripture. The way I see if, if my hypothesis proves correct, the seeming oddities make perfect sense, and aren'r even contradictory. If it proves to not hold true, then we simply have a lot of seemingly redundant statements. Which would simply suggest that for unknown reasons, John's visions saw 2 Babylon's fall, 2 keys given, he ignored the angel the first time and other such things.
I just feel it is much more likely that some books are a reference to the first chronology, not one of there own. I don't see a logical reason the Lord would repeat himself in the manner it would read otherwise. That is generally not how a literal telling would go, so the visions, being a visual interpretation, may simply be stages as opposed to one straight through chronology of events.
I'll just start and it may not be totally in order, since I haven't arranged it all yet, but it is still just pages of notes and etc. Sorry for that in advance.
In 5:11 it says - 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also. -WAYPOINT 1-
Which is in reference to this question by those martyred - "How long *, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
So His wrath will come when those to be martyred have finished. Which all the theories of all I have heard, agree, will happen before the wrath. So ....
Since some see the wrath beginning in chapter 7, for those, it means that we are raptured between 5 and 7. -WAYPOINT 2-
Now in 7:14 there is reference to the ones who have come out of "the great tribulation" - 14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. - So, we have now established that at chapter 7 following the 6th seal, and the 144,000, but before the seventh seal, the great tribulation has already happened. -WAYPOINT 3-
Now in 8:13 the first of the "woes" is to begin - 13 Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!" Here we have already had the sounding of 4 trumpets -WAYPOINT 4-
In 9:1 we have the angel receiving the key and opening the pit - 1 Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. 2 He opened the bottomless pit .... -WAYPOINT 5-
In 9:4 things begin to get interesting, because the instructions are given not to hurt the ones with god's seal on them. But if those are no longer on earth, that cannot happen anyway, right? So why instruct them if we are all gone already and beyond their reach? - 4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. -WAYPOINT 6-
Now by 10:1-2, we have had plagues and much death and fire and brimstone already, and then - I saw another strong angel coming down out of heaven, clothed with a cloud; and the rainbow was upon his head, and his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire; 2 and he had in his hand a little book which was open. - The book makes the first appearance since the Lamb broke the seals. - WAYPOINT 7-
At 10:5-7 we see the angel swear by god - 5 Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, 6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer, 7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets. - Now from what I've read from most all the references to the mystery, it is about salvation/resurrection. -WAYPOINT 8-
After this John measures the temple and those worshipping in it. in 11:1 - 1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. - So the temple/New Jerusalem is still in heaven and to this point those described as worshiping in it are just the elders and angels those who came out of the great tribulation and assuming Jesus is there, the 144,000 that follow him everywhere He goes. -WAYPOINT 9-
By 11:6 the 2 witnesses are sent and the beasts arrival is foretold - 6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. 7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.
One good question to ask here is why are the witnesses prophesying? If all God's chosen are already gone, who are they prophesying to? -WAYPOINT 10-
11:13 the witnesses are raptured and the city is destroyed, the second woe - 13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people * were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; behold, the third woe is coming quickly. - Here I will point out that the witnesses could have been prophesying to the city to save the remainder. But that is the only ones out of all that repented. Also, this was the sign of the beasts rising from the pit. -WAYPOINT 11-
in 11:15 Christs reign begins! - 15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, " The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." Then in the same paragraph and the same description - 11:18 - 18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth." - So, after the sounding of the 7th trumpet, the wrath has already come, the Lord has begun his reign and judgement is happening. The next line shows that the heavens open and the temple is coming 11:19 - 19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm. -WAYPOINT 12- Here I will simply point out that the wrath has come, the pit opened, the beast released, judgement has happened, and the 1,000 year reign has already begun.
I will stop here and use this post to refer back too. I hope the color coding helps to make it easier to identify things.
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 23, 2021 20:02:14 GMT -6
Now, hopefully I have managed to use the actual scriptures to show without any personal interpretation, that with the exception of the beast being sent back into the pit, ALL the major events of the end times have already specifically bee met. The exception being the events that happen after the 1,000 years reign and subsequent extermination of all evil. The place we stopped, only leaves the actual arrival of the New Jerusalem to earth, which is not addressed till the final 2 books.
So, this means that the books in between, are basically describing the particulars of the first 12. Not occurrences after them. Unless of course you believe these things are repeated more than once.
This also explains the repeated terms and events that are described in the next books, they aren't necessarily chronological, though they can be, within the context of the first 12. So when later Babylon is said to be fallen in 2 different places it is just different descriptions of the same event, which took place somewhere in the first 12, but was not shown in the first vision of John. They are either a collection of individual visions to describe the first, or just shown/written in an order that seemed best to him to express.
The beauty for me in this, is it is going to eliminate a lot of speculation, since the waypoints are obvious and straight from scripture without my saying "this means" .... John states it, straight from Jesus and the angels. I/We just never put it together before, as far as I know. I doubt I'm the first, just the first I've heard. I'm not anything special in this way, just following where the spirit leads, and it has taken me here. Hopefully i'm not mucking up what he's trying to show me! :)
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Post by Natalie on Jul 23, 2021 20:28:59 GMT -6
I differ on a couple things:
ESV says in 7:14 "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation."
So, it may not have ended. He's seeing them start to arrive but the great tribulation continues. I need to see what other translations say.
11:1 - I see this as measuring an earthly Temple, not the heavenly one. Because, it says in verse 2 "but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months." How can the nations be given the heavenly temple's court? or how can they trample the heavenly city? I believe he's speaking of Jerusalem in physical Israel and the temple that will be there.
11:6 The two witnesses are prophesying to those left in Jerusalem. I imagine they are also going to be broadcast via the internet to places all over the world. One theory is that they show up towards the beginning of the 7 years and are killed when the Abomination is set up. So, they will have been prophesying to the Jewish remnant (Jews who will become followers of Christ during Daniel's 70th week).
I have come to see Revelation as not necessarily chronological. Which is what you have said also. It's a bit cyclical or spiraling, I'm not sure.  I haven't worked out how I think the pieces all fit together, but I have a general idea of what I think. For example, I see chapter 12 as an over view and not necessarily of events fitting between chapters 11 and 13. It's actually been awhile since I have sat down and thought through some of this stuff.
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 23, 2021 21:38:24 GMT -6
I differ on a couple things: ESV says in 7:14 "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation."
My other versions, which I've looked at are the TYN, the original KJV and Geneva and a few others almost all say "came out", funny that the NKJV changed to come from the original came. But really either way, it is already happening if it hasn't already happened, at that point. So, it may not have ended. He's seeing them start to arrive but the great tribulation continues. I need to see what other translations say. 11:1 - I see this as measuring an earthly Temple, not the heavenly one. Because, it says in verse 2 "but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months." How can the nations be given the heavenly temple's court? or how can they trample the heavenly city? I believe he's speaking of Jerusalem in physical Israel and the temple that will be there.
In 21 after it comes to earth and is described it further says in verse 27 -27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. and in 20:7-9 -7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. So, the city will be surrounded and there will be those who trample outside underfoot. Since we reign with Him during the thousand years, and obviously there are still those on earth that are not reigning with us, it also makes sense for it to be THE temple, not an earthly one, but I could be wrong there.
11:6 The two witnesses are prophesying to those left in Jerusalem. I imagine they are also going to be broadcast via the internet to places all over the world. One theory is that they show up towards the beginning of the 7 years and are killed when the Abomination is set up. So, they will have been prophesying to the Jewish remnant (Jews who will become followers of Christ during Daniel's 70th week).
According to the layout of the seals/trumpets, they are already dead before the 12th chapter which follows those verses.
I have come to see Revelation as not necessarily chronological. Which is what you have said also. It's a bit cyclical or spiraling, I'm not sure. I haven't worked out how I think the pieces all fit together, but I have a general idea of what I think. For example, I see chapter 12 as an over view and not necessarily of events fitting between chapters 11 and 13. It's actually been awhile since I have sat down and thought through some of this stuff. After reading it front to back daily for weeks, it seems to me at least, clear that the first vision, the chapters I lay out above, are one chronological description, which also fit the descriptions in scripture. But after those, it repeats and it refers to things often and out of order. It seems like the beginning is as it is described, a vision of beginning to the judgement and reign. then following this it is individual descriptions, which fall within the area already described. Otherwise the whole book would just be a random collection and no sense in him stating it as a chronology in the vision as he does. Also the way the remainder is worded it is easy to see breaks in the visions as well as he says and then i saw or looked and saw and etc. which doesn't happen in the first layout. None of that is concrete proof, but it is a good indication. :) |
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Post by boraddict on Jul 23, 2021 23:03:26 GMT -6
servantofthelord , I included some interpretation with the factual and color-coded. Here is Rev. 17:8, "1) The beast that you saw was, and is not, and 2) is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And 3) the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come."
1) John saw the beast that is referenced in Verse 17:8 in Rev. 17:3.
2) This beast is about to rise from the bottomless pit.
3) Those who dwell on the earth and are not written in the book of life marvel to see the beast and this links to Rev. 13:8.
4) The beast from Verse 13:8 arose from the sea.
5) John saw this beast in Rev. 13:1.
The above information is factual and not my interpretation. The beasts are the same beast and the bottomless pit means the same thing as the sea.
Here is Rev. 9:11, "They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon." That is, the angel of the bottomless pit is the king that is over those who are described in the 1st woe of Chapter 9. Again, this is factual information.Here is Rev. 9:1, "And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit." Again, the fifth angel blew his trumpet, then John saw a star fall to the earth. So either the 5th angel was given the key to the bottomless pit after he blew his trumpet; or, the star was given the key to the bottomless pit after the 5th angel blew his trumpet. Since the above verse (9:11) states that the king over those described in the 1st woe is the angel of the bottomless pit, and the 5th angel is an angel of God, then the angel of the bottomless pit can not be the 5th angel but the star. Again, this is not interpretation but fact based upon logic. That is, the angel of the bottomless pit that is the king over those described in the 1st woe of Chapter 9 is not the 5th angel blowing the trumpet. Therefore, this king must be the star of Rev. 9:1 that is given the key to the bottomless pit. Not interpretation but fact according to the text.Since this king is given the key of the bottomless pit and the beast arose from the bottomless pit that is the sea, then the king of the 1st woe is ether Lucifer or the beast of Rev. 13:1 and Rev. 17:3. Again, the logic is factual based upon the information in the verses. That is, the star that fell is either Lucifer or the beast that is given the key to the bottomless pit.Then in Rev. 20:1 we have: "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain." An angel coming down having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. So now a little interpretation from me that is the angel having the key is the corresponding angel to the 5th angel of Rev. 9:1. That is, both the angels of Verse 9:1 and 20:1 have the keys but in the 1st instance the key is given to the angel of the bottomless pit that is the star, as evidenced above, and in the 2nd case the angel having the key to the bottomless pit does not give it away but binds the devil. This seems to show, and now some additional interpretation, that the king in Rev. 9:11 that is the star in Rev. 9:1 (fact) is the devil placed in chains in Chapter 20 (speculation).
However, the angel of the bottomless pit that is the king (v. 9:11) is not the angel in Verse 20:1. That is, the angel having the key (v. 20:1) is not the one receiving the key in Rev. 9:1 and this is factual as explained above. Because, and again, the angel with trumpet (v. 9:1) is of God and the angel of the bottomless pit (v. 9:11) is not. My interpretation again, the angel with trumpet gave the key to the devil (v. 9:1); and secondly (v. 20:1), he did not. That is, in one instance the key was given (v. 9:1) and in the other instance the key was not given (v. 20:1 and factual).This shows that the two verses (9:1, 20:1) are not a matched pair but are like book ends to each other and the factual information shows this.
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 23, 2021 23:42:39 GMT -6
servantofthelord , Here is Rev. 17:8, " 1) The beast that you saw was, and is not, and 2) is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And 3) the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come." 1) John saw the beast that is referenced in Verse 17:8 in Rev. 17:3. 2) This beast is about to rise from the bottomless pit. 3) Those who dwell on the earth and are not written in the book of life marvel to see the beast and this links to Rev. 13:8. 4) The beast from Verse 13:8 arose from the sea. 5) John saw this beast in Rev. 13:1. The above information is factual and not my interpretation. The beasts are the same beast and the bottomless pit means the same thing as the sea. Here is Rev. 9:11, "They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon." That is, the angel of the bottomless pit is the king that is over those who are described in the 1st woe of Chapter 9. Again, this is factual information. Here is Rev. 9:1, "And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit." Again, the fifth angel blew his trumpet, then John saw a star fall to the earth. So either the 5th angel was given the key to the bottomless pit after he blew his trumpet; or, the star was given the key to the bottomless pit after the 5th angel blew his trumpet. Since the above verse (9:11) states that the king over those described in the 1st woe is the angel of the bottomless pit, and the 5th angel is an angel of God, then the angel of the bottomless pit can not be the 5th angel but the star. Again, this is not interpretation but fact. That is, the angel of the bottomless pit that is the king over those described in the 1st woe of Chapter 9 is not the 5th angel blowing the trumpet. Therefore, this king must be the star of Rev. 9:1 that is given the key to the bottomless pit. Not interpretation but fact according to the text. Since this king has the key of the bottomless pit and the beast arose from the bottomless pit that is the sea, then the king of the 1st woe is the beast of Rev. 13:1 and Rev. 17:3. Again, the logic is factual based upon the information in the verses. A couple questions. which version are you quoting from, it seems to have added words not in most of the translations I'm using. I'm using mostly the NASB, KJV, Youngs literal and occasionally the Geneva(Breeches bible) In the layout you make above you seem to begin at the ending and work to the beginning as opposed to the way it is written. 9:1 is before 9:11, so it is referring to the "locusts" which are described in between, not the beast. Also, the verse says the angel is given the key, not the king. The reference is not to the star, but the angel which are called he throughout, but the other stars referred to are not called he. Further it says in some of the more literal, like YLT that they have over them a messenger OF the abyss, not having to be the messenger of God, or the one with the key, but one from the pit. In 11:7 it clearly states that the beast comes out of the pit once the 2 witnesses are done prophesying, which happens in 11:12, since they are taken to heaven and never return. The beast that comes from the sea is coming from the sea, not the abyss or pit. But even if it were, it is already released in 11:12 and therefore cannot be already referencing a later happening, it works the other way around, unless you read it backwards. :) Which I wouldn't recommend if you are trying to decide what happens when. The first books are stated very orderly and in a chronology, the later ones as you point out aren't necessarily so. So a reference in the later books would be a reference to an earlier happening not vice versa. |
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Post by boraddict on Jul 23, 2021 23:57:19 GMT -6
A couple questions. which version are you quoting from, it seems to have added words not in most of the translations I'm using. I'm using mostly the NASB, KJV, Youngs literal and occasionally the Geneva(Breeches bible) In the layout you make above you seem to begin at the ending and work to the beginning as opposed to the way it is written. 9:1 is before 9:11, so it is referring to the "locusts" which are described in between, not the beast. Also, the verse says the angel is given the key, not the king. The reference is not to the star, but the angel which are called he throughout, but the other stars referred to are not called he. Further it says in some of the more literal, like YLT that they have over them a messenger OF the abyss, not having to be the messenger of God, or the one with the key, but one from the pit. In 11:7 it clearly states that the beast comes out of the pit once the 2 witnesses are done prophesying, which happens in 11:12, since they are taken to heaven and never return. The beast that comes from the sea is coming from the sea, not the abyss or pit. But even if it were, it is already released in 11:12 and therefore cannot be already referencing a later happening, it works the other way around, unless you read it backwards. Which I wouldn't recommend if you are trying to decide what happens when. The first books are stated very orderly and in a chronology, the later ones as you point out aren't necessarily so. So a reference in the later books would be a reference to an earlier happening not vice versa. Rev. 9:11 KJV states that "they had a king over them which is the the angel of the bottomless bottomless pit." This angel and the king are one and the same. This angel is not the 5th angel of Rev. 9:1 KJV. |
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 24, 2021 0:14:02 GMT -6
One way I use to confirm my hypothesis is to compare the judgement parts, since we know from scripture there is not, as far as I know multiple judgements (I'm not talking about individual acts of judgement but the wholesale judgement) other that the one for the believers and non, and depending on your position, possibly a second after the 1,000 year reign where the dead are risen to the damnation. But in no way should those two be described in a similar way as they are wholly different. So, lets look at the first one mentioned in 11:18
- 18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."
Now let's look at the other in 20:12-13
-12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
The dead are covered in both, the small and large or great and small, and those who are God's or those in the book. It would take a lot of imagination stretching to deny these are not both describing the same event. The wording is even similar. But since chapter 20 was not yet written when chapter 12 was being so, it is hard to claim the first one is referencing the one he is yet to write. Plus since the first part is fluid and in order and the second is not, there is little reason to try to make it fit backwards when it already works just as it is.
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 24, 2021 0:20:26 GMT -6
A couple questions. which version are you quoting from, it seems to have added words not in most of the translations I'm using. I'm using mostly the NASB, KJV, Youngs literal and occasionally the Geneva(Breeches bible) In the layout you make above you seem to begin at the ending and work to the beginning as opposed to the way it is written. 9:1 is before 9:11, so it is referring to the "locusts" which are described in between, not the beast. Also, the verse says the angel is given the key, not the king. The reference is not to the star, but the angel which are called he throughout, but the other stars referred to are not called he. Further it says in some of the more literal, like YLT that they have over them a messenger OF the abyss, not having to be the messenger of God, or the one with the key, but one from the pit. In 11:7 it clearly states that the beast comes out of the pit once the 2 witnesses are done prophesying, which happens in 11:12, since they are taken to heaven and never return. The beast that comes from the sea is coming from the sea, not the abyss or pit. But even if it were, it is already released in 11:12 and therefore cannot be already referencing a later happening, it works the other way around, unless you read it backwards. Which I wouldn't recommend if you are trying to decide what happens when. The first books are stated very orderly and in a chronology, the later ones as you point out aren't necessarily so. So a reference in the later books would be a reference to an earlier happening not vice versa. Rev. 9:11 KJV states that "they had a king over them which is the the angel of the bottomless bottomless pit." This angel and the king are one and the same. This angel is not the 5th angel of Rev. 9:1 KJV. The word that is translated as "angel" is the same word for "messenger". But doesn't automatically mean divine. The same word was used to describe Caesars pages, who were not "angels". Since the key reference was made prior to the messenger/angel reference in the later verses, your not supposed to look forward to decide what the tense/meaning of the previous sentence is. thats not how the language is read. Had the key reference been made after the angel/star supposition, then it may work, but not in the order it reads. At least not without bending the language rules to make it fit. sorry tense wasn't the right word, more ownership or what is being referred to. |
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 24, 2021 0:39:25 GMT -6
Try to think of Revelation like John, he's describing a dream or vision. When I did this the other dayI naturally did it as I would describe a book. I told the basics first , a general layout of the events, and then elaborated on the specifics inside. This way, the hearer doesn't have to try to digest all the details in one swallow, once they got the gist of it, your fill in the blanks. That's not a hard and fast rule, but from a writers point of view it happens to be the way you usually write a book as well.
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Post by boraddict on Jul 24, 2021 7:05:22 GMT -6
Rev. 9:11 KJV states that "they had a king over them which is the the angel of the bottomless bottomless pit." This angel and the king are one and the same. This angel is not the 5th angel of Rev. 9:1 KJV. The word that is translated as "angel" is the same word for "messenger". But doesn't automatically mean divine. The same word was used to describe Caesars pages, who were not "angels". Since the key reference was made prior to the messenger/angel reference in the later verses, your not supposed to look forward to decide what the tense/meaning of the previous sentence is. thats not how the language is read. Had the key reference been made after the angel/star supposition, then it may work, but not in the order it reads. At least not without bending the language rules to make it fit. sorry tense wasn't the right word, more ownership or what is being referred to. Okay, what is your position as it pertains to the angel with the trumpet in Rev. 9:1? 1) that was standing before God in Rev. 8:2 KJV, 2) that prepared to sound in Rev. 8:6 KJV 2) that was yet to sound as stated in Rev. 8:13 KJV 3) that sounded in Rev. 9:1 KJV Option 1, The angel of God that has the task of sounding his trumpet (vv. 8:2, 6, 13, 9:1), has the additional task as the angel of the bottomless pit to preside over those who torment (Rev. 9:3-10) as their king (v. 9:11)? This would mean that one of the angels standing before God at Rev. 8:2 is the angel of the bottomless pit of Rev. 9:11, that is king Abaddon. or Option 2, The angel of God that has the task of sounding his trumpet (vv. 8:2, 6, 13, 9:1) is not the angel of the bottomless pit (v. 9:11)? In this case there would be in the 1st woe: 1) the angel sounding the trumpet (v. 9:1) and 2) the angel of the bottomless pit (v. 9:11); two angels in the 1st woe. Along with option 2 the angel of the bottomless pit must have the key of the bottomless pit and this key was given in Verse 9:1. Since the angel sounding the trumpet is not the angel of the bottomless pit (here in option 2) and the angel of the bottomless pit has the key, and the key was given in Verse 9:1, then the key was given to the "star" that metaphorically represents the angel of the bottomless pit in that verse. |
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 24, 2021 12:45:52 GMT -6
The word that is translated as "angel" is the same word for "messenger". But doesn't automatically mean divine. The same word was used to describe Caesars pages, who were not "angels". Since the key reference was made prior to the messenger/angel reference in the later verses, your not supposed to look forward to decide what the tense/meaning of the previous sentence is. thats not how the language is read. Had the key reference been made after the angel/star supposition, then it may work, but not in the order it reads. At least not without bending the language rules to make it fit. sorry tense wasn't the right word, more ownership or what is being referred to. Okay, what is your position as it pertains to the angel with the trumpet in Rev. 9:1? 1) that was standing before God in Rev. 8:2 KJV, 2) that prepared to sound in Rev. 8:6 KJV 2) that was yet to sound as stated in Rev. 8:13 KJV 3) that sounded in Rev. 9:1 KJV Option 1, The angel of God that has the task of sounding his trumpet (vv. 8:2, 6, 13, 9:1), has the additional task as the angel of the bottomless pit to preside over those who torment (Rev. 9:3-10) as their king (v. 9:11)? This would mean that one of the angels standing before God at Rev. 8:2 is the angel of the bottomless pit of Rev. 9:11, that is king Abaddon. or Option 2, The angel of God that has the task of sounding his trumpet (vv. 8:2, 6, 13, 9:1) is not the angel of the bottomless pit (v. 9:11)? In this case there would be in the 1st woe: 1) the angel sounding the trumpet (v. 9:1) and 2) the angel of the bottomless pit (v. 9:11); two angels in the 1st woe. Along with option 2 the angel of the bottomless pit must have the key of the bottomless pit and this key was given in Verse 9:1. Since the angel sounding the trumpet is not the angel of the bottomless pit (here in option 2) and the angel of the bottomless pit has the key, and the key was given in Verse 9:1, then the key was given to the "star" that metaphorically represents the angel of the bottomless pit in that verse. You make nice boxes for the options, but you limit the possibilities to the ones YOU see, which leaves no room for error in your view. I see it as it says. I don't have to declare the first woe, it is done in scripture, I don't see that it has to involve the things you point out that you see. There is no spot that declares the king and the angel that opens the pit have to be or are the same. Nor is there anywhere that says if they aren't it is the first woe or 2 angels etc. Thats how you see it would have to be. I just read the verses and assume they tell it as I read it. If I try tying them in as I go and start to create a picture/pictures of the events, it affects how I'll see the events after. :o Ok, 8:2 covers all 7 angels with trumpets, not just the fifth. So does 8:6. So those 2 are irrelevant to the individual angels except to point out there are indeed 7 and then they are all preparing. So I don't use the description of the whole to identify anything other than the number of them, they all get addressed individually as we go, so I let the individual descriptions control the narrative. 8:13 just says an angel or another angel, but makes no reference to it being one of the 7 with the trumpets. Those are identified all through by number when referenced. So I rely on the actual verse that names the 5th angel, which indicates he sounds and gets they key to open/opens the pit. I don't read anymore into it than it says. Sorry if that isn't enough, but I do my best to stick to the descriptions and wording as it is written without trying to decipher it beyond, unless it is needed to understand. In this case it is pretty straight forward to me and needs no interpretation. IMO :) All that said, I'm not trying to convince you, just showing what is openly stated, verses what can be inferred or understood. Some are stricter in interpretation than others, I tend towards stricter, then interpret if I need more to make it clear. It reads very clear to me through the first 12 books or so, so I don't interpret much into them. But thats just me. :P |
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I haven't worked out how I think the pieces all fit together, but I have a general idea of what I think. For example, I see chapter 12 as an over view and not necessarily of events fitting between chapters 11 and 13. It's actually been awhile since I have sat down and thought through some of this stuff.