Scriptural verses about the rapture

Your assumption is not what I was referring to, but it works too. From a simple browsing of this topic on this site, I have read many different views on the specific of the rapture. Some groups hold the same opinions exactly, many hold tentatively some just differ. I used the words I used, in the assumption that people wouldn't assume more than I actually say. But again, it's all good. I KNEW that no matter what I found, all would not agree. Thats just the way it is with anything you state that is not already readily accepted. So I stated this to cover any and all theories that my findings don't fit. I haven't finished the actual restructuring yet, so not even I am sure of the "where" in the chronology it is. From your reference, it sounds as if you feel the entire book reads in order, would that be accurate? If it did, you realize that Babylon falls twice and a host of other things happen more than once as well. And they are literally said, not implied. So, an assumption as to where this happens based on the prior text, assumes it is all in order which a quick review will prove otherwise. Congrats on having no bias! That is truly a rare thing. I still don't get why people always seem to have to see right and wrong in this kind of thing. I haven't implied that at all. What I did imply and state, is that the verse I showed was very obviously supported by the other verses I showed, and not just by my opinion. Now, if you have to read that as your wrong, well, without being rude, thats not MY fault. It's your perspective. You say I'm not saying it, yet you clearly seem yo be accusing me of just that. This is the second "soft reminder" of me possibly doing what you admit I'm not actually doing. Which I've clearly stated is not the intention. Yet it persists. As to the video your recommending, I find it a bit fascinating that apparently Dr. Woods is an authority on a book that I'm getting the impression you as a group feel is not be be truly understood. As there is a Dr. before his name I take it this gentleman is a scholar? If he had just come out with his first video, and had no degrees, would you still be recommending it? Not slamming the guy, he may be the smartest and best at this subject that ever lived. I don't know. But I'd be willing to bet that when he first had his insights, they were not universally accepted. I'll make some time to loop back and check him out. But with the exception of textual examination, I put very little stock in scholars. Scriptures were intended for the base population, not the scholars. Though they can understand as well as any at times too. But I've never consulted an architect to tell me how to remodel homes, I learned from doing, from the ground up, except when I was in need of a specific expertise that I either didn't have or couldn't get on my own. Doesn't mean I don't value the expertise, but it is not needed in the average remodel. Sort of like scripture. If the scriptures understanding requires exegesis,I'll lean on a scholars knowledge, but if it states something clearly, I don't see the need to doubt the obvious, in order to understand the not obvious in it's place. That said, I'm open to learning in general, if this guys video is by the letter and not his particular view, shared by those who follow, thats cool. There are Lot's that are interpretations of the book, but rely on just that. Been that way for hundreds of years, though rapture theology as it is now is recent to our modern church, which apparently only seems to alert few people. Curious that. Thanks for the recommendation. Since your standing with Natalie, convey my non-right sentiments as I've stated.  :P  That was a joke, just so it is not misunderstood.

Ok, since it will obviously take a considerable amount of proof to budge most of you from the view of Revealtion that you hold, and you won't be able to realistically consider what I've found without at least being shown the possibility. I will write this post up in a manner to step you through the basics of how I got to my premise. At least then, if you read this, and you still can't see it, I've give it a good attempt to get past the “norm” view. You may not see it regardless, I just don't know. I never did before.

So, first we have to establish at least the possibility that the book does not read as it is written. So I will give several verses to support that it not only probably doesn't but it can't. Just in case it matters to any, I'm using the NASB, mainly because I already have a version of it on my desktop. But I actually have 17 separate versions in hardcover and 9 more in ebook type or PDF. I have compared many and the issues I will show, cut across most all. So it is not a translation/version issue.

I will list repeat verses or wording or etc.

Revelation 19:10 NAS- Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
(and)
Revelation 22:9 NAS- 9 But he said to me, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God."

Revelation 10:7 NAS- 7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.
(and)
Revelation 16:17 NAS- 17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done."
(and)
Revelation 21:6 NAS- 6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.

Revelation 11:18 NAS- 18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."
(and)
Revelation 20:12 NAS- 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Revelation 14:8 NAS- 8 And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality."
(and)
Revelation 18:2 NAS- 2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.


Ok, I hope we can all at least agree that ….
1- John didn't just ignore an angel in two different times, and that two different angels didn't give him the same rebuke, if he did.
2- That the end can't come three times in three different chapters
3- The world doesn't all get judged twice
4- Babylon can't fall twice and then be proclaim in heaven to do so twice

I found a lot more, but this should be enough to prove the point. I actually, with the help of boraddict, found terms and words which organize most of the actual order of the events, without having to add any special viewpoint to it. There are very literal as well as overlapping descriptions, to do so with most of the book, once you accept that it is not actually read in order as it is. I won't bother trying to convince you of that much just yet. It should be enough for you to just accept the possibility that the order you read is not automatically the order of events. If you can just entertain that, then the rest will be much easier and make more sense.

So, if you eliminate the context you believe the next verses are in, and just read them for what they say, I will show you through the text, and through the use of several different verses, that are used to support the rapture, that these verses do just that. Describe the rapture.

I'm not saying this because I believe it, though I've become pretty swayed by the text to do so. I'm saying it because it makes sense, it follows the scriptures descriptions and it also contains all the specified elements to be the rapture.

Is it possible that i'm wrong, always! But what are the odds that multiple descriptions of the rapture would all fit one verse? Without saying”what this seems to say is.... But actually match words and themes, and still not be it?

I challenge anyone who reads this to find anyplace in the end times book of Revelation, where the rapture has to occur, any verse that comes anywhere near describing it as well as this. I've read the entire book more than three times since I found this, looking for another spot, or a honest reason it couldn't be this. I haven't come close to finding either. Even using other translations and computer word searches. I have been nothing, if not thorough in this study.

I'll keep you one second longer to cover a final point. The book of Revelation is a recounting of the things that are to happen in the end times. As such, if we really believe there is a rapture, then it should be covered in this book. Jesus doesn't make promises He doesn't keep. And it makes absolutely no sense that He would show John everything except that promise.

As far as I know, or have seen on this site, nobody has been able to show it with any real certainty, without using some view of interpretation, without literal matching scriptures to do it. Which is why there are theories on rapture and not a united view. Ok, enough of my having to lay out all the obvious pre-qualifiers.

The rapture ...

Revelations 14:14-16 - 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Notice in this verse, the description. A white cloud, sitting on it one like the son of man, having a golden crown. Only this first one is described this way, only he has a crown, only he is on a cloud, only he is “like the son of man”. Then a loud crying voice! Then the ripe EARH is reaped. Notice it specifies the ripe earth, the whole thing.

The very next verses clarify ….

14:17-18 - 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe."
14:19-20 - 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles

Now see the difference in the angels and the “harvest” of the others. One just has a sharp sickle, the other has the “power of fire” and came out from the altar. He's to gather the clusters from the “vine OF THE earth”. See the distinction made? The first angel harvested the ripe earth. This one gathers the ripe clusters “of the earth”. Different “grapes”. Then this one further puts his harvest into the wine press of God's wrath. A definite indication of worldly wicked grapes. But the first reaping is where? Still in the clouds with the “reaper”!

Now the reference to the trodding outside the temple refers to New Jerusalem/Heaven which is referenced in the verse below, down to the treading. Which is further evidence it is the reaping of the wicked in His wrath.

Revelation 11:2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

Since I know most of you will automatically assume this is another temple, strictly based on the fact it is described in the same paragraph as the witnesses. I'll go ahead and cover this now. First off, he is told to “get up” and measure the temple. He's already in heaven, not earth, he is not having visions with angels on earth, but IN heaven. The voice which talks describing the witnesses is in heaven, not on earth.

But I fully realized this logic wouldn't even sway most, so I also found every reference to the temple of God within this book. Every single one is in heaven and describing either heaven or New Jerusalem in heaven, depending on your viewpoint. Not one time is this phrase used in this book for any other places. But since I also figured that my word wouldn't sway, I've listed every one here for you to see for yourself.

Revelation 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

Revelation 7:15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Revelation 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

Revelation 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God."

Ok, now lets look at the different scripture from the NT about the rapture. Again I know any one will not be believed so I'm using a couple. I have seen these sited by different people on this site in support of the rapture. I'll start with one that ALL seem to use.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 - 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

So, how does this match up? Let's see. Descended with a shout from the arch angel, check!

With a trumpet of God, well this is also true, but it is covered in my restructured chronology, and will take a much more in depth look than I'm willing to go into on this explanation. I'm personally giving it a check.

If your willing to entertain the order not being literal as shown at the start, then entertain it's possible.

Next, the dead will rise first, again this will be shown in the chronology to be a check. Finally, they meet the Lord in the air, check!

So, the only parts of this verse that all already agree is the rapture, that isn't already covered within the verse itself is the dead and the trumpet. Which I'll show in the study are actually happening at this time.

Mathew 13:36-43 - 36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field." 37 And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Now here Jesus specifically says this is to happen at the end of the age, twice! So, there is no misunderstanding the timing of this event.

Also he uses the reapers as the examples. Also he says the righteous will shine forth as the sun, an allusion to the sky, which is where the clouds are and He is and Heaven is.

He further calls it the kingdom of their Father. This should leave no doubts to where He is talking about.

He also says the good seed are sons of the kingdom, His sons, us! He even says the reapers are the angels.

He also says the bad seed is thrown into the furnace. Linking the power of fire as well. On top of it all,

He makes a point to show this is important to pay attention to! “ He who has ears let him hear.” This indicates this is no sub-importance event.

Plus he just described the verses above to a “T”. including all the main elements.

Ok, by now, you've either been looking to ofind a reason this is not the rapture, or you see it very probably is.

There is ample reasons why and i've laid out enough scripture to support it. There is similar likeness to some OT stuff to, but to be frank, if you are looking to have it not be, there will always be a reason for it not to be. If you look objectively, it's pretty hard to ignore.

The sheer amount of “coincidences” you have to write off, for it to be explained as something else, makes it something you'd have to be trying to do. If that is your viewpoint, I disagree, but you've a right to any opinion you want.

Hopefully this has blessed someone besides me.

PS- If this much scripture still won't sway you any, I'll save you some time. Don't bother reading the restructured book, when I'm done. It is filled with actual layering of repeated phrases and words used to confirm the order. It will only seem like a waste of time. I'm not here to be right or to prove anything. I have what I came to this study for and then some! I wanted to strictly let the verses speak, and they have, let those with an ear hear.

There is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. Each separate persons with separate roles, but all God working together.  Same God of the OT and the NT. 

"I challenge anyone who reads this to find anyplace in the end times book of Revelation, where the rapture has to occur, any verse that comes anywhere near describing it as well as this. I've read the entire book more than three times since I found this, looking for another spot, or a honest reason it couldn't be this. I haven't come close to finding either. Even using other translations and computer word searches. I have been nothing, if not thorough in this study."

How would you interpret this verse?

"and she brought forth a male son, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and her child was snatched up to God and to His throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place made ready from God, that there they may nourish her—one thousand, two hundred, sixty days." Rev. 12:5-6

She is Israel. The Child is the corporate body of the church. So, we can deduce that just before Israel goes in to the wilderness to hide and be protected, the Child, the Church is snatched away, caught up, raptured. Find the place in the chronology where Israel flees into the mountains, ie Matt. 24:16, and you will know that the church has already been snatched away.

This I understand. But the comment I was referring to was this one - 
- Israel belongs to God the Father and the Church belongs to God the Son. Jesus came to the nation of Israel -
This statement seems to indicate a difference in ownership/purpose. Since you specified Israel belongs to the Father, I took that to indicate you felt that the "Father" was the one who Moses and etc. was dealing with in the OT. This is a common belief I have found. I personally was taught this way as a young Christian. I was much older before it was shown to me that Jesus is the God of the OT and NT. The Father is oft referred to and is definitely in Genesis at the beginning/creation, but the one that tabernacled with the Jews, spoke to Abraham, etc. was Jesus.

Here's the crux. I try NOT to interpret. Not to say I won't or don't. But I prefer to see the text as it is stated, unless I have a specific text that gives me direct reference to the meaning. Such as when Jesus explains the parables, or when the lampstands are explained in the early part of the book. IMO when you begin to interpret one thing to represent another, it closes off other possibilities, makes them more difficult to see, since you will automatically then read that word/words to mean a specific thing. You may well be right about this being Israel and Jesus. Can't say with any certainty. But it is not THE "rapture". Any catching up in the bible is A rapture, by definition. But THE rapture referencing the taking up of the believers, only happens once. It is, I thought, one of few things pretty much all of us agree on. If we just take the word and try to find a place to fit that, without using the context of "the believers/church etc.", then it's easy to find the principle all over. reaping anything can be sen as such, the sickle cuts/snatches whats reaped up/off the ground. plucking a flower would even fit. I see I'm going to have to start writing posts like books to be sure all particular thoughts and words I'm speaking of are understood better. I'd hoped there was more "common" understanding in the groups of belief. Though there is much differences in the parts. All good. Also, the catching up part is just a single reference point. I showed many, and linked most all. Finding a spot to match any one or maybe two, is not hard. Finding something to match almost all, that is difficult.  :)

Wow! I'm out.