servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
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Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 16, 2021 19:04:12 GMT -6
Sorr for all the seemingly basic questions, but I'm trying to do as little assumptions and interpretations as possible till it has to be done. Since you all have a specific idea in mind already, I just wish to be sure I'm accurate in my basic understanding of each. Rather ask irritatingly simple questions than make worse assumptions.
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Post by sog on Jul 16, 2021 19:07:00 GMT -6
sog , which event is considered the beginning of Gods wrath? After or coinciding with the 6th seal. The day we won’t know “the day or hour”. Revelation 6:12-17 12 And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the eminent people, and the commanders and the wealthy and the strong, and every slave and free person hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the sight of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 16, 2021 19:07:07 GMT -6
Basically, 1) pre-tribulation is before the tribulation and this appears to be before the seals of Rev. 6 at Rev. 4. 2) mid-tribulation is the mid point of the tribulation that appears to be between the seals and trumpets and more specifically Rev. 8:1. 3) post-tribulation is after the tribulation and this appears to be after the bowls of Rev. 16. However, it seems to be generally accepted that the rapture occurring somewhere close to these three areas of time is considered to be within their definitions. Because, let's say that the tribulation began as a result of some event and we did not recognize that event as the beginning of the tribulation, and the rapture occurred five weeks later, then the rapture would still be considered pre-tribulation. The same goes for the mid and post rapture possibilities. There are many other possible definitions available to you and mine is not to be considered absolute. Thanks, this is the sort of explanation I sought. I'll let the others all weigh in and try to get a basic handle on them.
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Post by sog on Jul 16, 2021 19:20:19 GMT -6
servantofthelord , Natalie , mike , Gary , stormyknight , if ya'll don't mind, I'd like some clarification. I don't want to do any study into the different schools of thought on the rapture just yet, as I don't want to risk biasing my study before I conclude it. But I do need a little clarification. Just simple basics, no reasoning or opinion, if you don't mind. Not yet anyway. I understand there to be 4 schools of thought on rapture. Those that don't believe it at all, those who are what is termed pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and post-tribulation. If I surmise correctly by simple word/linguistics, the pre thought is before the tribulation, mid is in the middle and post is after. Hopefully that is the correct basic thought. So the defining factor is the tribulation. since tribulations are ongoing even today, I take it to mean the "Great Tribulation", specifically. So hopefully, there is a consensus among the three as to what event or time, signifies the beginning/start of this event. What exactly would that be? If there is a specific verse that declares it, or some definite sign of it in scripture, that will suffice. If not a basic description will do nicely. Please consider that I'm not wanting a full explanation of any particular theory just yet, I merely wish to be sure I at least understand the most basic premise of these. Thanks in advance for saving me the time of trying to pinpoint and assume I am correct. Basically, 1) pre-tribulation is before the tribulation and this appears to be before the seals of Rev. 6 at Rev. 4. 2) mid-tribulation is the mid point of the tribulation that appears to be between the seals and trumpets and more specifically Rev. 8:1. 3) post-tribulation is after the tribulation and this appears to be after the bowls of Rev. 16. However, it seems to be generally accepted that the rapture occurring somewhere close to these three areas of time is considered to be within their definitions. Because, let's say that the tribulation began as a result of some event and we did not recognize that event as the beginning of the tribulation, and the rapture occurred five weeks later, then the rapture would still be considered pre-tribulation. The same goes for the mid and post rapture possibilities. There are many other possible definitions available to you and mine is not to be considered absolute. boraddict, just curious why you decided to exclude Pre-wrath? It has some similarities with all three, but is distinct in it's position. I get this feeling that many really don't understand it.
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Post by boraddict on Jul 16, 2021 22:17:03 GMT -6
Basically, 1) pre-tribulation is before the tribulation and this appears to be before the seals of Rev. 6 at Rev. 4. 2) mid-tribulation is the mid point of the tribulation that appears to be between the seals and trumpets and more specifically Rev. 8:1. 3) post-tribulation is after the tribulation and this appears to be after the bowls of Rev. 16. However, it seems to be generally accepted that the rapture occurring somewhere close to these three areas of time is considered to be within their definitions. Because, let's say that the tribulation began as a result of some event and we did not recognize that event as the beginning of the tribulation, and the rapture occurred five weeks later, then the rapture would still be considered pre-tribulation. The same goes for the mid and post rapture possibilities. There are many other possible definitions available to you and mine is not to be considered absolute. boraddict , just curious why you decided to exclude Pre-wrath? It has some similarities with all three, but is distinct in it's position. I get this feeling that many really don't understand it. I think you are correct in your conclusion. The details in the pre-wrath may have large implications but I have not researched this subject. Do you see each of the three rapture possibilities as having a pre-wrath component? The reason that I mention this is because there appear to be three wrath's of God: 1) the destruction of Babylon that appears to take place in the seals, 2) the destruction upon the armies against Judah that appears to take place in the trumpets, 3) the final wrath of God in the bowls. Each of these would have pre-wrath components.
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Post by mike on Jul 17, 2021 6:01:21 GMT -6
With pre-trib the event that kicks off week 70 (aka the 7 yr trib) is the rapture. With the other views the 7yrs is a little fuzzy as the only defining event to number or count the time is at the abomination of desolation, which should be 3.5 years in. So that would mean that the events we see in the world now could be that we would be in the beginning of the trib, and the (Great) Trib is sometime down the road. In the mid-trib, pre-wrath and post trib views, we (the church) would not know we were in the trib until the AoD
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david
New Member
Posts: 33
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Post by david on Jul 17, 2021 15:21:06 GMT -6
Sorry to be late, but for completeness I'd like to add the belief of partial rapture.
I don't know anyone who holds this, but it appears to be merit-based beyond one's salvation. All the saved will be raptured, but some will go before the rest because of some virtue of theirs.
I only know of it from Andy Woods' YouTube series on the Rapture and its variations.
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 17, 2021 15:40:45 GMT -6
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 17, 2021 17:50:01 GMT -6
Upon reading it, I think 2 Esdras chapter7 should be included as well, would ya'll agree?
Ok, since I'm deep into revelation/rapture already, it seems pointless to not simply widen my scope slightly to cover end times prophecy in general, since there is obvious overlap and correlation to both previous topics. I know there is a lot of ground to cover, but here is my scripture list so far. Fell free to suggest additions if you don't see them covered here. And once again, thanks for ya'll help. Many eyes and brains are better than just mine. If i need to include an entire chapter, feel free to list the chapter over the individual verses.
Working list updated to date
2 Esdras chapter 7 Zephaniah 2:1-3 Isaiah 66:7–9 Deuteronomy 32:20-21 Job 19:26-27 Isaiah 26:19-21 Daniel 12:1-2, Matthew 24:30-31, Matthew 25:1-13, Mark 13:24-32, Luke 10:20, Luke 17:34-37, John 14:3, Acts 1:7-8, Acts 15:14-16 Romans 8:18-19, 1 Corinthians 15:52, Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, All of Revelation
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Post by venge on Jul 18, 2021 7:42:25 GMT -6
Your list is extremely absent of many passages.
The first reason being the audience. Most here hold to Pre-TB and thereby do not use or are not aware of other verses supporting other views. Because of that, you can be limited to scripture from that perspective.
Secondly, I would stick with canon (66 books) types avoiding other works that could mislead and not be factual. No reason to drink from an unproven cistern when we have a proven word.
Third, the harpazo event is overhyped. I recognize that you are doing a study on it and I’m not trying to deter you from that. But the focus of the early church and most of the Bible in our change was the resurrection of the dead. That is what is key, not the rapture. If you find passages on the resurrection of the dead, you’re not far from what is termed the rapture.
Fourth, I believe you will not get everything you need unless you read it all yourself. The spirit will give you sight, not the internet. Prayer for wisdom and much study will do this. Go in with an open mind WITHOUT any preconceived notions. Don’t let certain theological ideas cloud a plain reading. Stick with scripture only; no outside influences or customs of man!
Fifth, ask yourself questions regarding the verses. Are they logical?
Ask yourself questions such as: What precedes the rapture? What precedes the resurrection of the dead? What happens concurrently with the resurrection of the dead? How many times does Christ come back? How many resurrections are there? Differences? Similarities in other verses? What did Christ followers believe? Are there signs that precede it? What is the purpose of the resurrection? What happens after the rapture? And what must be in place for that to happen? Can everyone have it wrong?
GL and If you want to talk, send me a private message. I won’t reply back on this thread.
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 18, 2021 10:53:40 GMT -6
Your list is extremely absent of many passages. I agree, which is why I asked for any and all passages or chapters that I might need to include and look at.The first reason being the audience. Most here hold to Pre-TB and thereby do not use or are not aware of other verses supporting other views. Because of that, you can be limited to scripture from that perspective. Secondly, I would stick with canon (66 books) types avoiding other works that could mislead and not be factual. No reason to drink from an unproven cistern when we have a proven word. I do agree with this for the most part. However, the "cannon" has never actually been closed. Depending on what bible you read, there are some with more books than others. Even the early christians quote from books not in our "cannon". Our cannon even references books that are not in at at least twice, Jasher and Enoch. I do however put the premium on the cannon books. I also limit what apocryphal writings I give "scriptural" value to. I'm not interested in the fringe Jewish books like the more "druidic" type stuff. I do see historical and background type value at the least, in the "accepted apocryphal books, like what was in the Septuagint and the 1611 KJV. They were kept along with the cannon, even though they were not "part of" it. So, even the early Christians and messianic Jews used them. I don't use them as a "primary" source, but they can help flesh out phraseology and common terminology and the like. Third, the harpazo event is overhyped. I recognize that you are doing a study on it and I’m not trying to deter you from that. But the focus of the early church and most of the Bible in our change was the resurrection of the dead. That is what is key, not the rapture. If you find passages on the resurrection of the dead, you’re not far from what is termed the rapture. It is partly for this reason that I am expanding to the "end days" as opposed to rapture and revelation. I feel that if I do a well done and thorough study of this, any "rapture" and accompanying beliefs will bear themselves out, without my delving into a specific held belief of it. I predominantly just wanted a basic idea of what each was based in, so that I might properly address any of these in my summary, without misrepresenting the core ideas. I have no intention of reading articles or learning the ins and outs of each. My opinions and subsequent beliefs will be formed and affirmed by what I actually read in scripture, regardless of anyones personal interpretation of it. It was my studies on the early church and their traditions that were the impetus for this study. I will admit that I will tend toward the beliefs they held over any we currently do, since they were united and still held to the apostles traditions over anything else.Fourth, I believe you will not get everything you need unless you read it all yourself. The spirit will give you sight, not the internet. Prayer for wisdom and much study will do this. Go in with an open mind WITHOUT any preconceived notions. Don’t let certain theological ideas cloud a plain reading. Stick with scripture only; no outside influences or customs of man! I completely agree with this, and I have read the entire bible many times. But I am human and trying to look at a focused topic means looking at certain parts specifically. So, I asked for suggestions of "scripture" and not articles and the like. I could miss something alone that may help me. I'm fine with adding hours to my reading and study, if it means I'll get a fuller picture. I take the verses and books and read them myself, not just the quoted passages, since context matters. I threw out all previously held beliefs some time ago, and have re-read scripture with the understanding that I didn't ever understand. So, I hold even my own personal previous learning with skepticism, to be properly learned by keeping my mind free of such bias as best I possibly can. This has taught me that many of the previous things I believed were actually rooted in traditions of the churches, not scripture. Thus leading me to this particular study. For example, In this study, on only the first page of the first book of Revelation, I have about 8 pages of notes and references and cross-references I madeFifth, ask yourself questions regarding the verses. Are they logical? That is why I read the context of the verse and what proceeds and follows it, to not fall to personal interpretation or face value understanding, void of context. I further take each phrase or scripture and search for other scripture that bears out the same meaning or wording/terminology, so as to allow scripture to define scripture, without looking outside, except in instances where a refinement of meaning can be helped by basic examination of the original Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew words, etc. I also compare against several, about 10 or 15 different versions of the bible, so I don't miss the occasional translational issues. I have concordances, lexicons and interlinear bibles to compare with as well. I also use the Septuagint and Masoretic, to get a full scope.Ask yourself questions such as: What precedes the rapture? What precedes the resurrection of the dead? What happens concurrently with the resurrection of the dead? How many times does Christ come back? How many resurrections are there? Differences? Similarities in other verses? What did Christ followers believe? Are there signs that precede it? What is the purpose of the resurrection? What happens after the rapture? And what must be in place for that to happen? Can everyone have it wrong? GL and If you want to talk, send me a private message. I won’t reply back on this thread. I'll more than likely take you up on this, as this study will be and already has been quite time consuming. I was probably 30 or 40 hrs. into it before I even considered asking for additional help. I leave each to their own theology, I'm not trying to prove anyone right or wrong, just seeking the truth. My own opinions will be formed by the scriptures, whether that agrees with anyone else's or not. To be blunt, I'm not looking to make friends with this, just seeking the best understanding of what scripture is saying about the end times as I can get, free of interpretations of the churches and others. No matter how learned and well versed they are. Scripture is the ultimate truth and that is where my allegiances fall. I certainly do appreciate your offer of help, as I do the others, no matter the opinion you may or may not hold. God Bless!
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Post by mike on Jul 19, 2021 8:27:38 GMT -6
Upon reading it, I think 2 Esdras chapter7 should be included as well, would ya'll agree? Ok, since I'm deep into revelation/rapture already, it seems pointless to not simply widen my scope slightly to cover end times prophecy in general, since there is obvious overlap and correlation to both previous topics. I know there is a lot of ground to cover, but here is my scripture list so far. Fell free to suggest additions if you don't see them covered here. And once again, thanks for ya'll help. Many eyes and brains are better than just mine. If i need to include an entire chapter, feel free to list the chapter over the individual verses. Working list updated to date 2 Esdras chapter 7 Zephaniah 2:1-3 Isaiah 66:7–9 Deuteronomy 32:20-21 Job 19:26-27 Isaiah 26:19-21 Daniel 12:1-2, Matthew 24:30-31, Matthew 25:1-13, Mark 13:24-32, Luke 10:20, Luke 17:34-37, John 14:3, Acts 1:7-8, Acts 15:14-16 Romans 8:18-19, 1 Corinthians 15:52, Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, All of Revelation No sorry I would not agree
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 19, 2021 11:33:30 GMT -6
No sorry I would not agree Ok brother, would you mind briefly explaining why? To satisfy my curiosity.
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Post by mike on Jul 19, 2021 11:55:33 GMT -6
Upon reading it, I think 2 Esdras chapter7 should be included as well, would ya'll agree? This is what I would not agree to
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 19, 2021 12:29:01 GMT -6
Upon reading it, I think 2 Esdras chapter7 should be included as well, would ya'll agree? This is what I would not agree to You don't agree the book is relevant to end times, or you don't believe it should be read? Or do you disagree with apocryphal books in general?
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