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Post by sog on May 17, 2021 12:54:17 GMT -6
Very good video on the Anti-Christ and Revelation 13. Sermon starts at around 39 minute mark. Only need to watch til 1:41:30 ish.
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Post by mike on May 18, 2021 8:09:05 GMT -6
Good stuff sog thanks for sharing Although I am not currently of the persuasion that the AC will die and be resurrected, I am not closed off to the possibility. I differ with the pastor in that I see this passage as speaking of a kingdom, not specifically a king. No king/ruler has multiple heads (one of its heads), but the kingdom can. But I also am persuaded that believers will live into the tribulation and see the AC. Should I be alive & remaining and see someone appear to rise from the dead, I will not rule out the possibility I was incorrect!
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Post by Natalie on May 18, 2021 8:45:59 GMT -6
I agree, Mike, about the wounded head. That's one reason people see a revived Roman Empire.
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Post by boraddict on May 18, 2021 9:55:26 GMT -6
Good stuff sog thanks for sharing Although I am not currently of the persuasion that the AC will die and be resurrected, I am not closed off to the possibility. I differ with the pastor in that I see: this passage as speaking of a kingdom, not specifically a king. No king/ruler has multiple heads (one of its heads), but the kingdom can. But I also am persuaded that believers will live into the tribulation and see the AC. Should I be alive & remaining and see someone appear to rise from the dead, I will not rule out the possibility I was incorrect! Mike, what you said made me laugh because it is so true for me as well. "I will not rule out the possibility I was incorrect!" Yes! There are so many moving parts to this puzzle.
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Post by mike on May 18, 2021 11:04:05 GMT -6
I agree, Mike, about the wounded head. That's one reason people see a revived Roman Empire. or perhaps Babylonian?
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Post by sog on May 18, 2021 11:31:40 GMT -6
Good stuff sog thanks for sharing Although I am not currently of the persuasion that the AC will die and be resurrected, I am not closed off to the possibility. I differ with the pastor in that I see this passage as speaking of a kingdom, not specifically a king. No king/ruler has multiple heads (one of its heads), but the kingdom can. But I also am persuaded that believers will live into the tribulation and see the AC. Should I be alive & remaining and see someone appear to rise from the dead, I will not rule out the possibility I was incorrect! mike, I guess I heard it differently. I thought he was saying that it's not an actual death and resurrection. Only Jesus did that. Rather it's a deception by the AC and supported by the False Prophet that he actually died and was resurrected, thereby creating the illusion that he is Christ. I thought he was saying that it's a counterfeit death and resurrection fooling the masses, but not true Christians. I'll have to review that section again and report if I hear any different.
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Post by mike on May 18, 2021 12:16:39 GMT -6
I think he did say the way you heard it sog - Im saying I do not think its a man that is raised, or assumed to be raised. I see the beast as a kingdom with a "king". I see the kingdom as having a deadly head wound healed, not a king. As I said though I aopen to being wrong about should I be alive at that time and see a man appear to be raised to life. I think for me, it would be easier to notice a man apparently raised from the dead and harder to place my finger a kingdom rising from the ashes.
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Post by sog on May 18, 2021 12:47:20 GMT -6
I think he did say the way you heard it sog - Im saying I do not think its a man that is raised, or assumed to be raised. I see the beast as a kingdom with a "king". I see the kingdom as having a deadly head wound healed, not a king. As I said though I aopen to being wrong about should I be alive at that time and see a man appear to be raised to life. I think for me, it would be easier to notice a man apparently raised from the dead and harder to place my finger a kingdom rising from the ashes. mike, Ok. I see what you are saying. Right now, and what I thought he was saying, is that the beast is the AC and the system he represents (a monster) and the final kingdom. The Horns are other Kingdoms and other Heads are it's kings (leaders). I haven't looked at the Greek and/or Hebrew words in each passage yet to see if there is a different meaning or multiple meanings of each. I admit I can be somewhat lazy in that regard. I'll try my best to decipher. If you or anyone else has a take on that part, please contribute. Right now I'm of the opinion that the small horn, that later becomes a larger horn, and it's head (king or leader is wounded), the AC, leader of the final global kingdom (horn). Of course that may change.
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Post by mike on May 18, 2021 12:59:29 GMT -6
sog You seem to understand this but in case its fuzzy, this helps clear up some of it for me. Barnes Notes on Bible Hub and the notes for Psalm 75:4
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Post by sog on May 18, 2021 13:31:05 GMT -6
sog You seem to understand this but in case its fuzzy, this helps clear up some of it for me. Barnes Notes on Bible Hub and the notes for Psalm 75:4 mike , Yes, I agree. The four Horns of the OT, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome, scattered the Hebrews. And then also in Psalm 75, look not to them, but to God. Psalm 75 6-10: 6 For not from the east, nor from the west, Nor from the desert comes exaltation; 7 But God is the Judge; He puts down one and exalts another. 8 For a cup is in the hand of the Lord, and the wine foams; It is well mixed, and He pours out of this; Certainly all the wicked of the earth must drain and drink its dregs. 9 But as for me, I will declare it forever; I will sing praises to the God of Jacob. 10 And He will cut off all the horns of the wicked, But the horns of the righteous will be lifted up. They will be cut off. God's Kingdom will be exalted. Now, the Fourth beast (system, Kingdom, and it's King) could be, could, be Rome (or smaller Horn, Vatican. And it's leader), wounded, but comes back. An OT beast, but also NT and becomes greater. Just my opinion for now. As we know, we will know more soon.
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Post by uscgvet on Jul 12, 2021 8:10:12 GMT -6
Either way: 1) a kingdom risen from the dead 2) a man raised from the dead
We still have other clues.
Whomever, or whatever the idol shepherd is, it was originally with "the flock", but then left it. So, it was Jewish or maybe even appeared "Christian" but left "the flock". We can confirm this in Daniel 11
"his fathers"... "his" doesn't sound like a kingdom to me, it's singular. "his" was originally with "the flock" and then left "the flock".
An interesting thing to also note about the "shepherd" in Zechariah 11 is, it's Christ. It's a man, a king, it's not a kingdom. We see this also with the 30 pieces of silver in Zechariah 11:12-13. That's an obvious reference to the traitor that betrayed Christ for 30 pieces of silver. The context we see in Zechariah 11 are all singular with respect to a specific person, not necessarily a kingdom. A kingdom wasn't betrayed by another kingdom for 30 pieces of silver. We shouldn't assume the idol shepherd is a kingdom. We should assume it's a man.
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Post by mike on Jul 12, 2021 8:23:55 GMT -6
uscgvet - check the language there again. It is not idle shepherd as in a "do nothing who left the flock" it is IDOL shepherd.
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Post by uscgvet on Jul 12, 2021 8:48:03 GMT -6
uscgvet - check the language there again. It is not idle shepherd as in a "do nothing who left the flock" it is IDOL shepherd. I see the mistake, but that doesn't change the underlying thought. I stink at spelling. The ISV translates it to the "worthless shepherd". Idol, worthless, my accidental "idle",... the shepherd is still windowed in context as a man, not a kingdom. Edit: corrected my spelling mistake
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Post by Gary on Jul 12, 2021 20:49:05 GMT -6
To me it's not really an "either/or," but a "both/and." The beast is routinely described throughout Revelation in the third person singular, and seemingly described as a single individual (Rev. 17:8 as one example), as well as doing things an individual would do. Revelation 17:12 is also a really big clue. In Rev. 13 we see the beast described as the collective entity. Heads + horns + beast = beast. But in Rev. 17:12 it breaks it down further. Each of the 10 horns is an individual "king," as is the beast. So that's why I think it's a both/and situation. The beast is a kingdom (cf. Dan. 7:7), but it's also a king (Dan. 7:8). I think it helps to consider that there isn't a strong distinction between the state and the dictator in such a complete authoritarian system. E.g., empire vs emperor, kingdom vs king.
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 20, 2021 19:39:51 GMT -6
It's good to keep in mind we are talking about satan here, who can be in one person or in many. He can do both, so having him described as an individual and a group in not inconsistent with other scripture. Even his minions can be one or more, remember Legion. Many can also act as one.
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