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Post by lionofgod on Apr 22, 2021 17:42:05 GMT -6
ok, I'm going to simply point out inconsistencies in teachings of the Old and New Testaments. Since they are held in the same book, but are separate to each other. Let's see how well the teachings agree. Since the established biblical explanation is that Jesus is the son of the God that created man. Since those 2 are 1 in him, the both sides should always compliment or fulfill each other and can never be in direct disagreement, since the Creator is a perfect being and all knowing, and incapable of errors or change from perfection. Ok, I think that should be a Good basis to start at. I will withhold posting a lil bit to see if there is any descent for the above statement of fact according to the rules of the site.
God Bless!
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Post by Natalie on Apr 22, 2021 18:30:55 GMT -6
I ran across this while looking for something else:
The whole article is good, but here's a section toward the end that I thought was relevant.
I hope you will read the whole article (it's short) as you get started on this discussion. Who knows, it might answer some of the questions you have.
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 22, 2021 21:30:05 GMT -6
I ran across this while looking for something else:
The whole article is good, but here's a section toward the end that I thought was relevant.
I hope you will read the whole article (it's short) as you get started on this discussion. Who knows, it might answer some of the questions you have.
Read the article, your right it's not long. I have a problem with trusting any writing that is not even signed by it's author though. I looked all over the page, couldn't find a name. I get the site is a "bible" sight, but since Christianity has about a dozen different viewpoints depending on what label you call yourself, I like seeing a name that I can then research to see if it is a student from high school. a Pastor, a fiction writer or just someones opinion. I do appreciate the link though.  |
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 22, 2021 21:40:49 GMT -6
Ok, first we must establish a standard to use. I'm good with the accepted belief of the masses, that ALL words in the bible are purposeful, and inspired and without flaw or contradiction, since there cannot be 2 truths. So if we all accept that God is not capable of mistakes, mind changes and anything other than complete perfection, we will begin. Oh that obviously includes sin as well, just to be thorough. These are the established beliefs and accepted by all, I assume. Since I stated nothing but the perfection of God, I hope there is no argument with my stated doctrine for this discussion. I will ask questions and actually give opinion and personal insight. If your uncomfortable doing anything but reading the Word. Please don't reply. I'm only going to use actual accepted bible verses. But I will pose hard questions. If thats offensive, don't read further. If your okay with standing on your faith, and explaining your viewpoint, let her rip!
---There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers --- author unknown
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Post by boraddict on Apr 22, 2021 21:45:05 GMT -6
Ok, first we must establish a standard to use. I'm good with the accepted belief of the masses, that ALL words in the bible are purposeful, and inspired and without flaw or contradiction, since there cannot be 2 truths. So if we all accept that God is not capable of mistakes, mind changes and anything other than complete perfection, we will begin. Oh that obviously includes sin as well, just to be thorough. These are the established beliefs and accepted by all, I assume. Since I stated nothing but the perfection of God, I hope there is no argument with my stated doctrine for this discussion. I will ask questions and actually give opinion and personal insight. If your uncomfortable doing anything but reading the Word. Please don't reply. I'm only going to use actual accepted bible verses. But I will pose hard questions. If thats offensive, don't read further. If your okay with standing on your faith, and explaining your viewpoint, let her rip! ---There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers --- author unknown Yes, I am in for the long haul. Let's say that God is perfect and that Jesus is God. Is that okay? |
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 22, 2021 22:35:51 GMT -6
Ok, first we must establish a standard to use. I'm good with the accepted belief of the masses, that ALL words in the bible are purposeful, and inspired and without flaw or contradiction, since there cannot be 2 truths. So if we all accept that God is not capable of mistakes, mind changes and anything other than complete perfection, we will begin. Oh that obviously includes sin as well, just to be thorough. These are the established beliefs and accepted by all, I assume. Since I stated nothing but the perfection of God, I hope there is no argument with my stated doctrine for this discussion. I will ask questions and actually give opinion and personal insight. If your uncomfortable doing anything but reading the Word. Please don't reply. I'm only going to use actual accepted bible verses. But I will pose hard questions. If thats offensive, don't read further. If your okay with standing on your faith, and explaining your viewpoint, let her rip! ---There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers --- author unknown Yes, I am in for the long haul. Let's say that God is perfect and that Jesus is God. Is that okay? I cannot go that far yet, as I am dealing in Old Testament first, Jesus was not uin the old Testament, other than by spirit. If I use anything that has his "spirit", I will so stipulate then. In New Testament talking, absolutely. |
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 22, 2021 22:36:11 GMT -6
Exodus 34:14-15 KJV- 14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: 15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; EXODUS 34:14-15 NAS version - 14 -for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God - 15 otherwise you might make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land and they would play the harlot with their gods and sacrifice to their gods, and someone might invite you to eat of his sacrifice, Ok, since we all agree God is perfect, we know he never uses wrong words, for that would be to err. which is not possible for a perfect God. Since God invented all words and languages, there is no way he doesn't use the correct ones when he speaks. Let's examine the scripture above. Which I took out of the original KJV and the NAS, since the KJV is the most widely accepted, and most other bibles are simply translated from it. And I chose the NAS, becuase the seminary listings I looked at consider it to be the best literal translation and the seminary students use it. As a bonus, it is not in modern language yet as to muddy up a definition of a word. Also, since we are discussing ancient text, I'm using the oldesst available acccepted dictionary, the 1828 Websters. It was the precursor to all the following dictionaries in print afer that, so it should be acceptable. Also it has the added bonus of using scripture to define words, so we get added scriptural insights from a language master of the 1800's. Since the bibles most of you read were written after that. this should be the most acurate to the time in English word definitions. You can find it here, if your so inclined. webstersdictionary1828.com/JEALOUS, adjective jel'us. 1. Suspicious; apprehensive of rivalship; uneasy through fear that another has withdrawn or may withdraw from one the affections of a person he loves, or enjoy some good which he desires to obtain; followed by of, and applied both to the object of love and to the rival. We say, a young man is jealous of the woman he loves, or jealous of his rival. A man is jealous of his wife, and the wife of her husband. 2. Suspicious that we do not enjoy the affection or respect of others, or that another is more loved and respected than ourselves. 3. Emulous; full of competition. 4. Solicitous to defend the honor of; concerned for the character of. I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts. 1 Kings 19:10. 5. Suspiciously vigilant; anxiously careful and concerned for. I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy. 2 Corinthians 11:2. 6. Suspiciously fearful. 'Tis doing wrong creates such doubts as these, Renders us jealous and destroys our peace. I did a search of the KJV and the word jealous is used over a dozen times in the bible, by God, to describe himself. here is results, if you'd like to check . www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?hs=1&q=jealous1. First off He says His name IS Jealous, and it is capitalized, as in a name, proper noun. So God's name is Jealous. Of all the words in the existing world, why would God repeatedly label Himself as Jealous, both as a name and as an emotion? 2. He is very clear that he feels jealousy, that is implicit in several of the quotes, her it even gives examples. "Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;" 3. He clearly states that He is not the ONLY God, and that is in the bible more than once as well. "go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods" Ok, to recap, God is named Jealous, feels jealousy and admits there are more God's than Him. So, this is not me twisting doctrine, as it is God's words, from the established accepted bible. However your own doctrine states there is only one God. This is directly in disagreement with your stated beliefs. And it's also the first commandment of the OT God. But it is repeated several times in the binle, as I sited above, so there is no misunderstanding this passage. He also states at the outset "no other gods", which again is a definitive statement and indicates more than one God, according to God. Now to the jealousy part. This is very fascinating and enlightening, as God, who is without sin, is saying in no uncertain terms that he envys other Gods, or if you want to be as generous as possible to Him, he is "concerned" with other God's. Even more revealing is the reason given. Lest you whore after other gods, etc. So, he has expressed fear and jealousy in the firsst commandment. Fear of losing followers, and jealousy of the "other" gods. How is an all powerful, all knowing, ONLY God, able to fear and be jealous? Envy is a sin. Fear is contrary to God. So, neither is possible for Him. Yet he obviously states this over and over. no mistaking it. So, according to the OT God, he is not the only god, he is capable of sin, he does fear and if you read the rest of the passages in the search, he also gets angry as a result of His jealousy. Now this is all perfectly normal for us humans, but as God, as you state him in your doctrine, he himself disagrees with you. I will keep this one short and succinct, and examine no further on this first post. Prove me wrong, via the scripture. But since this is scripture, if you do, you get the added benefit of breaking your own doctrines to do so. Sorry, not my rules. God Bless and good luck. As an added bonus, the word"jealous" does not even appear in the new testament. per KJV. |
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Post by boraddict on Apr 23, 2021 0:24:08 GMT -6
Thank you lionofgod , and please correct me if I am wrong, but you have two main points in your last posting the first being that the word "Jealous" was used as a name for God etc., and secondly that there are a multitude of gods. So please consider Isa. 2:7-9 wherein the land is full of silver and gold and treasures. Secondly, that the land is also full of idols that the people worship that are the work of their own hands. Lastly, that the people bow down to these idols. Of course this is called idolatry or idol worship but in short it is a worship of false gods; right? So it could be said that idols are the gods to those who worship them. Also, please notice that in the day of the Lord that these idols of worship will be destroyed and the Lord alone will be exalted (Isa. 2:17-20). As you can see the Lord is quite clear that he does not allow for the worship of false gods in his flock. Therefore, it can be said that he is a jealous God to not allow for the worship of false gods. However, the way that you are applying the word "jealous" in your posting is to imply that God is emotionally engaged in jealously rather than using the word as a restrictive measure to limit false gods as I have referenced above. Thus, your analysis is flawed in this regard: that the word "jealous" is given to represent an emotion rather than it's true intent to show that no other gods are allowed in the worship of the one and only true God. Thus, it is very appropriate for him to be called by the name Jealous. That is, God is not emotionally "jealous"; however, by him not allowing false gods to be worshiped makes him by definitions a jealous God. Also a peculiar thing that you said is the following: Just a thought but we began with the supposition that God is perfect, and in the above quote you are saying that God is capable of sin. Sorry, this is inconsistent and outside the parameters of this debate. Right? Great fun, thanks. |
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 23, 2021 1:08:28 GMT -6
I'm doing exactly as the post described, pointing out any seeming contradictory things, between the New Testament and the Old Testament. I did not make any statements that involved figuring out the meaning thru parable or even twist a single word to mean anything other than it says itself. I even went so far as providing the actual definition from the 1800 of the words and a link to verify on your own if you choose. I also sited 2 separate bibles for the quotes and listed them, and both were the same, so no inference of bad text. Then I just asked questions, which are in no way unreasonable to ask, nor slanderous as they are actually words directly from God Himself. I also knew that to admit to the actual words, without resorting to a figurative text was not possible. so there was no way to literally dispute it by using wording. and that if you admitted it, that was doing exactly what I was rebuked for. Thereby proving my original point yourself. I simply allowed you to make very precise decisions and agree to stick to them, that an honest and unbiased conclusion, or admission would be forced to be made.But I obeyed every single one, so aas not to be seen as irrational, as we all made perfect agreement already on the truth god and the exact way to show any contradictions. If I elaborate, I break the rules as well, so I will not. I just was trying to be polite and was bombarded with rules that were broken by interpretation, so I re-started within the rules, but you forced me to do so in a way that would put you then in a bad spot, scripture wise. Literal is literal, figurative is not the same. I uses interpretation to find truth, one just is stated. All the rest you have there are your words, not mine.
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Post by inaweofhim on Apr 23, 2021 6:49:40 GMT -6
lionofgod said: I did not make any statements that involved figuring out the meaning thru parable or even twist a single word to mean anything other than it says itself. I even went so far as providing the actual definition from the 1800 of the words and a link to verify on your own if you choose.
Did you research the Hebrew meaning of jealous, as the OT was written in Hebrew, not English? It more clearly defines.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 23, 2021 8:32:36 GMT -6
First thought - there is a difference between righteous anger and sinful anger.
God chose a people for Himself, rescued them from slavery, told them His Laws, told them how to be pure before Him, they agreed to follow Him. Then they break that promise and start chasing after other gods (which I will comment on in another post). This results in righteous anger. Anger against their sin.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 23, 2021 8:59:11 GMT -6
Deut 32:16-17 similar wording about being a jealous God and there being other gods, but we get more detail about those other gods. (I am using ESV which is very like NASB and both are highly respected) They stirred Him to jealousy with strange gods;
with abominations they provoked him to anger.
They sacrificed to demons that were no gods,
to gods they had never known,
to new gods that had come recently,
whom your fathers had never dreaded.
This passage uses parallelism - a technique often used in Hebrew writing. It's when two lines mean the same thing. So, the two lines I highlighted are meant to go together. The other gods are demons.
These following from Psalms are the gods that people worshiped. Idols made by human hands. But from the passage above, the people were really worshiping demons. God calls them gods, but they are not real gods, they have no power, they are things other than God that people were worshiping. Like today we might say, "Money is that man's god." It's not a real god, but we use the word god and money is worshiped.
Psalm 115
4 Their idols are silver and gold,
the work of human hands.
5
They have mouths, but do not speak;
eyes, but do not see.
6
They have ears, but do not hear;
noses, but do not smell.
7
They have hands, but do not feel;
feet, but do not walk;
and they do not make a sound in their throat.
8
Those who make them become like them;
so do all who trust in them.
From Paul: 1 Cor 10:19-21 What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
God wants His people to worship Him not demons. That's the jealousy. It's similar to a husband and wife. The closest in your list is number 5. A husband is careful and concerned for her, he wants her affection and doesn't want her giving it away to others. Same with God. And when His people participate in sin instead, that makes Him righteously angry.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 23, 2021 9:05:30 GMT -6
lionofgod , you might want to research the second part of this statement: since the KJV is the most widely accepted, and most other bibles are simply translated from it. I don't want to distract from the topic of this thread, so here is a thread I started: board.unsealed.org/thread/2545/bible-translations
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 23, 2021 10:23:38 GMT -6
lionofgod said: I did not make any statements that involved figuring out the meaning thru parable or even twist a single word to mean anything other than it says itself. I even went so far as providing the actual definition from the 1800 of the words and a link to verify on your own if you choose. Did you research the Hebrew meaning of jealous, as the OT was written in Hebrew, not English? It more clearly defines. I did actually, I have 2 interlinear bibles one in greek and one in Hebrew. As I stated, this statement is repeated a dozen times, with different circumstances involved. the meanings are clear by the context. The intent is expressed in several ways, none of which defer from the definition. Old Testament is in Hebrew and in Greek, the Greek is actually about 500 yrs. older as per dating of the texts. Old Testament Jews, never had a bible, that came later when the Greeks had, through a request of the ruler gathered 70 Jewish elders and asked them all to document the religion, all 12 wrote the same things, independent of each other.(which is why the Septuagint is known by the LXX or 70 bible) Also, the Greek version and the Hebrew are in agreement in most all the texts. As well, the apostles, whom had no one to read Hebrew, taught in Greek, the language of the time, spoken by the Jews as well. Additionally even the Hebrew and the Greek Old Testaments, originally included the apocryphal writings no longer included in the bible. But that is a separate conversation for a different post. I am actually quite thorough when I study, believe it or not. I have had the same discussions I will post on this thread, with many different religious leaders and priests, pastors and etc. I will not give their end answers, as that would be "teaching" a different than accepted narrative. Though they are all ordained/seminary and had different Christian denominational flocks. I'm curious to find what the viewpoint of the members here is, and if it will differ from the people trained and teaching in the churches. I have yet to have a single Holy man tell me that asking questions or quoting scripture in doing so, is in any way contrary to Jesus teachings, the opposite, most encourage such, citing Jesus own "job" was teaching, so study and questioning is actually considered "following in the footsteps" of Jesus. Because the different "doctrines" of Christianity are not the same, I did my utmost to both define and stay within the specified rules. The questions don't defy the rules, however the answers will, which is why I only question and leave it to the far more knowledgeable, and more wise, to answer. |
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 23, 2021 10:37:09 GMT -6
First thought - there is a difference between righteous anger and sinful anger. God chose a people for Himself, rescued them from slavery, told them His Laws, told them how to be pure before Him, they agreed to follow Him. Then they break that promise and start chasing after other gods (which I will comment on in another post). This results in righteous anger. Anger against their sin. I'm not questioning His reasoning, I totally get it. But I am not a perfect being. I do have emotions and emotions are unpredictable and of man. Q perfect being or God, as it is explained by doctrine, is not capable of "human" emotion, as it is not a lowly Human creation. A perfect God, would be free from such chains as men have, such as anger, lust, vengeance, envy, and all the rest of the "human condition".A unerring God, would lay his law and follow it, but not involve emotion a it is of itself not perfect, therefore not of God. As we established at the outset. But anger was a side effect of the questions asked. Not the subject. Love is love, hate is hate, jealousy is jealousy, anger is anger. To say that it is bad, but only in cases that involve man, is to contradict the accepted definitions of the word and to apply a modern twist. God did not speak to the ancients in parables, he was very straight forward. Jesus taught in parable in the New Testament to the Jews, but not before. Ir would be insane to try to say that The OT God, would choose a people, then speak to them in riddles, then expect them to understand and obey upon possible penalty of death. He was clear and very succinct in chosing words, and repeated the same many times. Which eliminates any individual definitions, via insight, as opposed to stated intent. |
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