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Post by yardstick on Apr 23, 2021 23:11:30 GMT -6
ok, since I really don't want to spend hours copying and pasting scripture, I will stick to the established, accepted scripture we all know by heart, so I can simply discuss and compare without taking a week of prep to do so. Since Natalie stated that the OT and NT, were in harmony,( to paraphrase ), meaning they do not contradict one another. I'm going to do the most basic comparison possible, what we all learn to do in order to decide somethings truth/value/reason. A list of pros and cons, or in this case a side by side comparison of the basic tenets and teachings of each. I will apply like to like, not just any scripture that I can find to prove a point. This is a comparison for continuity, not a right or wrong decision. They either are in agreement or they are not. I will use red ans the OT letters before the teachings of the Old Testament and blue with NT in front for Jesus teachings. If you can truly make oppodites mean the same, I will allow you to do so. That or if you see that they are contradictory, you simply state that. This is the purest and most basic comparison we can make, so there is not going to be grey areas to exploit from either books, for either side. If they all make perfect sense, and you can show me how I am not correct in the statement of contradictory teachings, I will humbly and gladly submit my error, and if felt needed my apologies to boot, just because I seek truth, not being right. OT - eye for an eye NT - if offended or attacked, turn the other cheek and forgive ( he even admonished the apostle for drawing a sword when the people came to take him to his deathOT - a whore is to punished NT- Welcome her and forgive her and all judgement is mine alone in the final daysOT - the sabbath is Holy and eternal not to be broken NT - is it better to observe the sabbath or do Gods work? (He and disciples are called out for not following the law here too)OT- Lepers are to be avoided and kept outside camp NT - Have pity on the lepers and heal them and bring them into the foldOT - If his people don't obey they are punished severely NT - ask for forgiveness and don't repeat your mistakes.OT - peoples that did not Obey the commandments and worship God, were slaughtered wholesale, women and children as well NT- pray for them, and set a good example, so they may change and be accepted into the foldOT - rebel against His word and you got at one point I believe it was 30 years slavery in Egypt NT - If you rebel, in the end of days you will be judged, until then you may do as you wishOT- You can only be granted access to Heaven if you obey the laws and commandments laid out. NT - you only have to believe Jesus died for your sin and follow his example and teachings.OT - Babylon defied God, he destroyed it NT- Rome and Jerusalem conspired and carried out the murder/crucifixion without proof of any crimes of the Christ, and he forgave them and told His Father, they know not what they do OT - All sinners are expected to account for their sins with sacrifices to God. NT - all sinners are free to sin, but will be judged in the final judgementOk, off the top of my head, these are enough to begin with. Please square the circle without resorting to interpretations and prophesies and parables. Those are a small portion of the bible, and with the sole exception of Jesus, could be totally removed from the bible and still have a cohesive message to use. If you are going to do this, then you probably should cite the Book, chapter and verse. And since the rest of us are willing to copy/paste the actual passages, you should too. Instead of taking them incorrectly paraphrased, quoted or otherwise out of context. The subsequent analysis of only one of the comparisons above should be sufficient to negate all of them. I imagine you are not going to insist that I debunk all of them, since they most likely have the same flaw(s).Your first example is incorrect based upon the following analysis. You are deliberately leaving out the conditions under which an eye for an eye is applicable. Here is what you should have posted:Exodus 21 This is a Law "codified" to protect the unborn! You are taking it out of context! Here is context - the very next two verses: Does it say to take out the eye of the slave owner? The tooth? NO!Leviticus 24 What is the context here? The man in question was not an Israelite. He was a foreigner living with the Israelites at the time, with his parents (I am sure you understand the significance of the father being a foreigner). It can be inferred from the passage that the fight that broke out resulted in either severe injury or death to the Israelite. It can also be inferred that there is no way to make restitution for the life of a human being. This instruction was given so that foreigners living with the israelites would know that the law was applied equally and fairly. The law would have been given as shown because the foreigner (having no relationship with God) would only understand that kind of Justice. Such justice would have demanded that preferential treatment was not given to the Israelites. This law was to also show the surrounding nations that the Israelites were the ones setting the standard of behavior. Therefore, it was given and codified to ensure fairness for foreigners. If you have not read the Code of Hammurabi, I highly recommend it, along with the context for why it was created. It is eye-opening when compared to Biblical Mosaic Law. Deuteronomy 19 What is the context here? The bearing of false witness that can cause a person to be killed or punished unjustly! Why is this being commanded? It is right there in red! But also, how terrifying must a law be to ensure that people do not bear false witness with ulterior motive? How terrifying would it be if such a law did not exist? We see even during Daniel's time that this was exactly what the Babylonian King did to those who falsely accused Daniel and had him put in the Lion's Den! Do you want to claim that God told Nebuchadnezzar to do eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth also? Also note the incident with Haman during Esther's reign with the Persian king! But lets discuss the NT part: Matthew 5: Noting that footnote h in the passage above refers to Exodus 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21. All of which I previously discussed. "You have heard that it was said..." what does this mean? It means they got their knowledge stripped of its context. In the very same literal form you are presenting to us here. Using the eye for an eye statement to justify behavior against someone who as wronged you; and as a weapon against another person is wrong. And so Christ corrects their understanding, and by extension, their behavior; requiring them to exceed the standard and set a new standard of behavior for the world. BTW in cause it wasn't obvious, you do realize that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth can start a chain reaction of reprisals between people, families, tribes, and nations, right? So how do you defuse the situation and gain the moral high ground? Do you think that a people or person who is expecting an eye for an eye is going to a) be in fear for a hammer that will never fall and b) modify their behavior (motivated by shame) when they see you acting in a much more moral sense than they have? Romans 12:17-21 Proverbs 25:22 Oh wait. These are two passages, one from the OT and one from the NT that clearly support the Matthew 5 concept. So yes, there IS harmony between the OT and NT. |
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Post by boraddict on Apr 23, 2021 23:31:51 GMT -6
I think The Gospel According to Matthew is written to show the fulfillment of OT prophecies, the result of which bridges to some degree the NT to the OT.
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Post by yardstick on Apr 23, 2021 23:48:00 GMT -6
I agree with most of what I have in bold above, and the Bible (Paul) explicitly says basically the same thing in Romans. Without the law there can be no sin. Nevertheless, are caveats in or errors to your logic: 1. You have a presumption that once the child is corrected, that the child will not repeat the same action in spite of said correction. This is a false presumption, and where 'original sin' (the sin nature of man) comes in. I have made no such presumption, I didn't even address the aftermath of the sin. It is of no consequence what happens after, each instance is unique, not all encompassing. Thats why I chose a basic and simple example. Whether the child learns the first time it is corrected has no bearing on the sin I am creating if I wrongly punish him. He has to grow and make innocent mistakes and be corrected until he/it understands. once understanding is capable, then the child is responsible for it's own sin. For it has reached the age of knowledge or wisdom or what ever you wish to call it.2. Notwithstanding the giving of the law, Paul clearly indicates that the giving of the law is not the catalyst for sin. He does so again, in Romans 1: This is reflected in the account of Noah and the flood! "Men did what was right in their own eyes..." We assume nowadays that those people who lived back then knew less about God than we do now. I disagree. They were far closer to 'the source' than we are now, simply because they actually knew Adam, and all that that implies! requoted to correct how this software works: My comments: You have a flawed perspective on this. If this were true, then Adam and Eve would have been automatons. No free-will. The Bible does indicate that Adam and God walked in the garden together in the cool of the evening. Some believe it was possible that Adam was in the Garden about 30 years before the fall. Do you think that Adam and God walked together 30 years every day and never said a word to each other? Does that make any kind of sense? You better believe they knew what sin was... by juxtaposition, in Genesis 2: The death referred to here is spiritual death; but we usually think of it as physical. Of course God made Adam and Even carry the blame for their sin. It was their sin! Not God's! Nevertheless, God also provided a salvation mechanism. By making this statement, you are applying a human standard to a being who is WAY more holy than you are; WAY more omnipotent than you are; and WAY more omniscient as well. I direct your attention to Isaiah 45:
and Job 40-42:You are not on solid ground here. |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 24, 2021 8:23:54 GMT -6
About lepers - you are misunderstanding things and leaving out parts of Scripture. Lepers were only to be avoided until they were healed. Kind of like quarantine if you have covid, measles, small pox, etc.
Still waiting for an answer on who Jesus is and what the Gospel is...
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Post by Natalie on Apr 24, 2021 9:01:08 GMT -6
Nope. It's always been about faith. Only faith. No works.
Faith in the Biblical Jesus...not the Muslim one, or the Mormon one, or the New Age one, or the Jesus-the-good-teacher one.
Romans (and other places) tell us that the point of the Law was to show us that we cannot be holy on our own. Hebrews (I think, I"ll double check that) tells us that sacrifices never completely removed sin, they were a temporary thing. The sacrifices, laws and commandments never saved anyone. It's always been about faith.
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 24, 2021 9:11:43 GMT -6
This is incorrect. You have conflated jealousy and envy. There is a distinction between envy and jealousy: Envy is about things that are not yours, and jealousy is about things that are yours. Envy is coveting. Jealousy is not. When you realize how significant this difference is, you realize that God is expressing concern over man giving to other 'gods' that which is rightfully His! So of course envy is a sin! Please show me where in the OT or NT it is documented that God expresses envy! He does not! He expresses jealousy!So then it is your assertion that god has human emotions, but that he doesn't have them in a human way, that the definitions of humans don't apply to God? We are to use human reason to understand his words, but leave it at the door for the rest?Since He is the one that created languages to begin with, wouldn't we have learned their meanings from him?
Since man can make (and has made) gods out of any number of things (Clearly described in Romans 1), of course there can be other gods! Nevertheless, though the Creator is capable of sin, it does not mean he sins! Man cannot make a God. He can at best make statues and idols. But we do not gave the power of creation, or we would be gods. So if man can't make them, where did they come from? God doesn't say just "idols", He specifies Gods.The fear expressed by God is a fear for you the human, not a fear for himself! Not a fear of other things! God knows that you, the human are in 'mortal' danger of loss of eternal life qwhen you sin. Since he desires that all should be saved, of course he fears for you! If you have children, you know what I mean: you fear for your child's safety all the time! It is very much like this for God. THis is not a sinful kind of fear! This is merciful kind of fear!
So God can be afraid, jealous and angry, which he expresses to humans, who only understand those words one way, yet your assertion is he actually meant them in a way that His people would not have understood?
In addition, you are equating fear and jealousy with sin! Maybe for humans, because as you know (since I pointed it out to you before) humans act and express those emotions in a tainted way. Our feelings in those regards are selfish in nature: Sinful. Not so with God.So fear is about self, self preservation, protectio etc., jealousy is about slf, fear of losing a loved one, and anger is said to root in fear as well, but since God knows all ans sees all He should have no fear, he already knows if you will bow to an idol, if you will leave him, etc. So why would he ever fear anything at all?Also, I would point out that if you believe what you have stated about the nature of God in the quote above to be true about God; then you have a different God than we do here. AS I have held through this entire discussion, I'm making reasonable inferences based on evidence from the words in the OT. Had this entire conversation been about any topic aside from this one, my questions and assertions would be absolutely in keeping with rational thinking. But ration and reason are not friends of religion, so I'm offensive when I try to apply it. Funny how man can understand the whole world of things, by one set of understandings, then this book makes them abandon all reason and think in contrary to reason. There is an entirely different set of rules for scripture than for all Gods creation. Fear and jealousy and anger are good for God, bad for us, black is white white is black. If we were talking about aliens or "other" gods, the rules would go back to normal. There is only a separate understanding of anything if you try to apply it to OT God. I get it, if you use reason, it wouldn't mean what you need it to mean. Also, as to applying everything differently, is there somewhere in the OT where god states all the rules and laws he makes don't apply to him, or is that just assumed because of said rule? If this statement were about me, you would all agree that jealousy anger and fear were part of MY sin nature, or anyone else. But when you use Him, the definitions are different, even though he provided our understanding of the word. Hebrews understood. They battled and fought anyone who didn't believe. killed entire villages and cities and over ran countries. Because this was pleasing to God. How do we know? They asked his blessings and he gave them. He even tells them to "smite them all". Which by the way included infants and women and children. But I'm sure he meant all this in the most loving and forgiving way. Because "humans" conquer, and He is incapable of "human" emotion. None of theses things did Jesus do or teach or act. But I get it, there has to be a specific understanding of the motivation and actions of God, or the established viewpoint cant be held. I do withdraw the envy part, as I believe it rational assumption, but not outright said. So jealousy in a form undefined with the exception of God. Check. |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 24, 2021 9:17:58 GMT -6
I think you are mixing Israel and Gentiles here. Even so, they didn't receive His law and promises until after Egypt. They weren't in Egypt as a punishment. If you read the story of Joseph, they were originally in Egypt because God was providing food for them because of the famine. After being there and growing in numbers, the Egyptians got worried and enslaved them. God demonstrated His power over the Egyptian false gods, showing Israel that He is the true and living God. He then took them to be His people and as Paul says, "To them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen." (Romans 9:4-5)
And your NT "contradiction" applies to everyone throughout history. You may do as you wish, but if you belong to Him then expect His discipline. If you don't belong to Him, then expect His judgement. That's the truth throughout Old and New.
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Post by boraddict on Apr 24, 2021 10:36:16 GMT -6
About lepers - you are misunderstanding things and leaving out parts of Scripture. Lepers were only to be avoided until they were healed. Kind of like quarantine if you have covid, measles, small pox, etc. Still waiting for an answer on who Jesus is and what the Gospel is... Yes, where is the commitment to gospel standards like: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" and showing "that" gospel truth in the OT. Which by the way I can do if the challenge were up to me. Perhaps I would begin with the chiasmus: 1) In the beginning was the Word 2) and the Word was with God
3) and the Word was God Providing evidence that (1) in the beginning (3) the Word was God (2) and the Word was with God. Thereby proving that the God of the OT is Jesus Christ and that he, Jesus, is the God of creation (Gen. 1:1). Am I missing something here? After all, all things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made (John 1:3). It seems quite clear to me but let's say that the NT did not exist then how is the God of creation proved to be "Jesus" in the OT. Let me count the ways, and begin in Genesis at Chapter 15 wherein " the Word of the Lord" (KJV) came to Abram in a vision saying "I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward" (Gen. 15:1). To which Abram speaks about his concern of not having a child as yet (Gen. 15:2-3). Followed by the Lord informing that his, Abram's heir, would come from Abram (Gen. 15:4). Then the Lord brought Abram forth to count the stars and said unto him that his seed would be numbered likewise and would populate the land and Abram believed the Lord (Gen. 15:5-6). Then " the Lord God" informs Abram that the land is his inheritance (Gen. 15:7) to which he asks for some proof of inheritance (Gen. 15:8). To which the Lord instructs Abram to prepare a three year old heifer, goat, ram (sheep), turtle dove, and pigeon (Gen. 15:9-11). This preparation by Abram is belonging to the proof of inheritance; that it sets the stage for the evidence he seeks. In other words, the evidence sought by Abram begins with the preparation of the animals. Then at Gen. 15:12-13 Abram falls asleep and has a nightmare, and the Lord informs Abram that his children will be strangers in a strange land. And, that He, the Lord God, will judge that nation and they, Abram's children, will come out with great substance (Gen. 15:14). Please notice that the same Word of the Lord that is the Lord God is the judge of that nation. And now is the end of Abram's life that he will not see this judgment (Gen. 15:15). However, and now the riddle, that in the fourth generation, they, the children of Abram, will come hither again, to the land of Abram's inheritance; because, the duration of time is needed for the iniquity of the Amorites to become full (Gen. 15:16). Which by the way is justification for their removal from the promised land IMO. And just a little side note to notice the number "four" that is a type of prophetic verifier. That is, the riddle is more about confirmation rather than dissection and study. Thus, "the fourth generation" is metaphor for a long duration of time and the number four verifies that the prophecy is from Lord Jesus (IMO). And now for the sign that Abram's seeks (Gen. 15:17); the Smoking Furnace (KJV) and the burning lamp passed between the pieces. This is a reference back to the animals that were divided previously in the chapter. Yes, someone that is now called the Smoking Furnace, and someone that is now called the burning lamp, walked between the pieces of the divided animals. To me nothing could be more clear that this is the signing of a covenantal contract between the Word of the Lord that is the Lord God and Abram. So whom do we call the Word of the Lord but Jesus. And not only that but who is the Smoking Furnace in the metaphorical language but Jesus Christ. Not only that but the very next verse, Gen. 15:18, clearly states that the covenant with Abram was made. So where was the covenant made but in Gen. 15:17 wherein both individuals spoken of in this chapter walked between the pieces. This chapter is so easy to read that any high schooler can see that is speaks of Jesus Christ and Abram proving that Jesus is spoken of in the OT. Lastly, the land that was then possessed by the various peoples listed in Gen. 15:19-21 now belongs to Abram as of the signing (walking between the pieces) of the covenantal contract as stated in Gen. 15:17. This concludes my explanation of Chapter 15 and that Jesus is the God of the OT. Also, with regard to Abraham please consider John 8:58 that before Abraham was, I AM. |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 25, 2021 17:14:16 GMT -6
lionofgod, So, I've been thinking about this... In some of your other posts, you seem to say that we must keep the ten commandments. Yet, you don't see the God who gave those commandments as the Father shown in the New Testament. So, wouldn't you be following a false god if you followed things from the God of OT? Wouldn't Jesus be following a false god because He kept all the commandments? He said He came to fulfill them. But if they weren't from His Father then why would He do that?
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 25, 2021 19:26:09 GMT -6
Out of the Darkness and into the light!
I have tried to speak to you of things of the world, you did not hear, so I will speak to you, of things of the spirit. As much as things have changed since the time of our Savior Jesus Christ, things are still the same. He stands before you and you do not see. He offers you the narrow path, but you insist on the wider road. He has promised you the spirit, but you won't release the flesh.
Jesus says you will not enter heaven till you become as little children, so quit playing the adult in the room. The innocence of children, is they have no bias, no rules, no limits. To learn what Jesus is teaching, follow instructions.
There are things of the world, and things of the spirit, you have to choose one. If you want to learn the ways of the spirit, you must start from scratch, a blank slate. You want to learn Jesus, but only if it is done the way you want. That is "you", that is a choice of free will. The second you start trying to put unchanging rules, on a living Word, you have created your own walls, thereby living in an echo chamber of your already established belief, so you can grow no more.
Jesus gave a "New Covenant", When you get something new, you discard the old. When the "Old Testament" was given to Moses, it was to teach man a lesson, not force obedience. God, was creating order in the chaos. He couldn't give us a spiritual gift if we couldn't choose to be more than carnal flesh. The Law, brought order, taught us good from bad, gave use a way to distinguish each, and many examples of how. The words were just a means to convey the thought/spirit. Once we had learned the messages/principles/concepts of the Law, Jesus came to usher in the next phase. The Holy Spirit.
The Hebrews/Pharisees/Jews were so attached to religion/Law/worldly things, they could only see the Law, not live it, so they could not grasp the teachings of the spirit, and redemption of Jesus. Even the apostles were rebuked for such, as they sought to marry the old with the new. Only John, abandoned himself totally to Jesus teachings. This is why all the apostles testify that John was the only one Jesus told His secret to Heaven to. All the apostles asked him to reveal it, but he knew as Jesus did, that they could not bring themselves to completely abandon religion, for spirituality, so he told them it was not for them. But Jesus had told them already that because they sought him with all their hearts truly, they would be with him in heaven. They were not to blame for being taught to rest all faith in the Law and religion.
This basic teaching alone should have any person with a sincere desire to know Christ, to seek out and read every scrap of teaching John has to offer! Alas, religion has jaded you and scaled your eyes to things of the spirit. Since this probably still makes no sense to you and you still see me as a heretic, allow me to just give a small window into my personal life and my personal walk with Jesus. Testimony is the greatest teacher, for those with ears to hear.
Several months ago, I was like you, I believed as you do, I followed others and I did as I was taught was the right thing to do according to God. But, at 53 yrs. old, I looked at my life as a whole and realized that it had leveled off, I had more good days than bad, but overall I was just living. Occasionally I would get a "revelation" of scripture, or one of the world, I'd feel great for a bit, and get what you all call the "rush". But eventually thing went back to normal and life went on. One night after watching the news, I lay in bed with the realization that we are indeed living in the end times. I had known this, but it hit me like a rock, made me feel sick inside. At that very instant, I realized a truth. (here was crying, guilt, pain, and finally peace and redemption/forgiveness)The sheer fact that my first instinct was not happiness. With that came the realization that if all I knew to be true, were really the answer and all there was, I should be elated at the end, as it is only a new beginning! Knowing this is true from Jesus own words, I had to examine where I could have gone wrong in my faith/beliefs. I studied my bible and could suddenly see all the contradictions between the Old Testament and Jesus teachings.
So, I decided to do as Jesus says, I decided to ignore EVERYTHING that I'd ever learned to be truth. All my schooling, my parents teachings, my churches teachings, all of it. I only kept the basic truths, Jesus is my redeemer and savior, I will only put faith in what he says and teaches. Before Him, there was no promise of everlasting life, He is the only way, so only he will guide my path. I began to research the bible and the origins of Christ, the people around him, especially the apostles, since only they were given the spirit from Jesus personally and called his messengers. So, Hid truth would be in their words, and his. I gained much wisdom from this, and the spirit was indeed with me. Each day I learned more, more was revealed and my peace and happiness grew accordingly. I realized my error had been in assuming that those who came before me had some grand insight that I couldn't see. I came to realize they did not, they are just men, who made choices based on the beliefs they had and discarded that which was not in keeping with that. I've learned more and more has been revealed to me than I can ever hope to convey, but suffice it to say that looking at Jesus alone and leaving the world behind, was the best decision of my sorry life. Every day is better than the last, my new normal is that I never go back to normal, I only grow in spirit and in peace and in Love of my savior, and his sacrifice and teachings. I am the most blessed person I know. Coincidentally I am also poor of money, sparse of worldly goods, infirm of body and old. But I have never felt better! I have waited many months to have a "bad" day, I just don't have them anymore. I don't anger, or lust, or any of the things I did before. All of this is Jesus gift to you each. You only have to shed your preconceived, immoveable walls and rules, and seek out only Jesus without reserve or condition. The old testament covered creation and the flesh, set it aside, pick up the New Covenant of Jesus and free yourself from the Law, and begin to live in the spirit. The body is soon to die, only the spirit has a chance to remain, if you don't feed it and water it with the blood of Jesus, Hid entire message. You can't grow, and you stagnate. You become luke warm at best. You cannot serve the ways of religion and Jesus. You are a house divided. As our savior said, you cannot serve God and mammon. I want more than anything for every one of you to experience the freedom and Love that comes with fully accepting the Holy spirit into your life. no more rushes, just a lifelong ever growing rush that has no end. For those that remain doubters, your already in my prayers, don't lose hope. All I can testify to, is that as long as you follow convention, you will never exceed convention. The sooner you shed the things of the flesh and begin to live in the spirit, you truly do see with different eyes and you are born into the grace and Love of Jesus our savior. To Him I give all thanks and praise! I have tried this on my own for 50 yrs. and I never got it till I gave up all I had and let Christ be my North Star, with the Holy Spirit as my guide. Through Him, all things are possible and all things are beautiful. I love you all and God Bless!
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Post by Natalie on Apr 25, 2021 19:47:03 GMT -6
Locking this thread for moderator review.
1st - You have not been here long enough to get to know us in order to make the broad statements that you do. And you are breaking rule #3.
We have all we need in the canon of Scripture. The book of John is all John's words that we need. Jesus didn't give Him any secret that we must seek from somewhere outside Scripture.
It has always been about faith in God. Faith in Him is the only thing that saves us. The Law was given as a guardian until Messiah. It showed them that they could not be holy on their own. Only God can make you holy, and He does that when we put our faith in Him. Nothing else is needed. Not then - not now.
The God of the OT is the same God as the NT. And as boraddict showed - Jesus is the Word and is the God of the OT. If someone doesn't have the right Jesus, then they don't have the right Gospel. And if someone add works in, then again, they don't have the right Gospel.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16) Faith alone.
Anyone reading this - make sure you have the right Jesus.
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Post by yardstick on Apr 25, 2021 21:09:04 GMT -6
So then it is your assertion that god has human emotions, but that he doesn't have them in a human way, that the definitions of humans don't apply to God? We are to use human reason to understand his words, but leave it at the door for the rest?Since He is the one that created languages to begin with, wouldn't we have learned their meanings from him? Man cannot make a God. He can at best make statues and idols. But we do not gave the power of creation, or we would be gods. So if man can't make them, where did they come from? God doesn't say just "idols", He specifies Gods.
So God can be afraid, jealous and angry, which he expresses to humans, who only understand those words one way, yet your assertion is he actually meant them in a way that His people would not have understood?So fear is about self, self preservation, protectio etc., jealousy is about slf, fear of losing a loved one, and anger is said to root in fear as well, but since God knows all ans sees all He should have no fear, he already knows if you will bow to an idol, if you will leave him, etc. So why would he ever fear anything at all?AS I have held through this entire discussion, I'm making reasonable inferences based on evidence from the words in the OT. Had this entire conversation been about any topic aside from this one, my questions and assertions would be absolutely in keeping with rational thinking. But ration and reason are not friends of religion, so I'm offensive when I try to apply it. Funny how man can understand the whole world of things, by one set of understandings, then this book makes them abandon all reason and think in contrary to reason. There is an entirely different set of rules for scripture than for all Gods creation. Fear and jealousy and anger are good for God, bad for us, black is white white is black. If we were talking about aliens or "other" gods, the rules would go back to normal. There is only a separate understanding of anything if you try to apply it to OT God. I get it, if you use reason, it wouldn't mean what you need it to mean. Also, as to applying everything differently, is there somewhere in the OT where god states all the rules and laws he makes don't apply to him, or is that just assumed because of said rule?
Indeed man can make a god - and I will assume here that you are not deliberately capitalizing God (big G) when you mean the creator of the universe, rather than god (little g) when referring to something man has made and that is worshipped in lieu of the creator. You must be using them interchangeably; which begs the question of whether you are making typos; or are deliberately attempting to conflate the two. Because they are not the same. Please clarify if you are just making typos, or whether you intend to make the capitalization the way it is.
No. Language being the creation of man, the words in scripture are the translation of God's communication to men. Therefore, the words used are the closest we can come to the original message. Since we believe God is capable of 'distilling' down his meaning to our languages, then we can be confident of the "God-breathed' meaning and its accuracy. It is the translations from the original extant documents which from time to time have errors in wording (though not intent). The originals are the 'inspired' Word of God. So yes, that would make your preference for the KJV just as much in error as any other translation, since it is well known amongst Biblical scholars that even the KJV has so-called 'errors' in it. FWIW those 'errors' tend to be in areas that are 'non-essentials' - not core doctrinally established requirements. I refer you to the Forum Rules for examples of the 'essentials'.
No. Fear is not always about self or self-preservation unless you are human. I have already explained why God would express fear. You are painting God as if he were a reflection of humanity. As long as you continue to believe that the ontology of the God-head is what you think it is; it makes your God a different God than ours.
Your 'reasonable inferences' are logical conclusions that you have drawn. You have not explained to the rest of us exactly how you came to those conclusions. In fact, you have asked us to explain to you why you are drawing such conclusions; and we have pointed out repeatedly that your conclusions are flawed; and why they are flawed. All of such explanations have been rejected by you out of hand. Maybe you should be explaining to us how you came to such conclusions, instead of demanding that we explain to you why you draw them that way.
The statement you refer to is not about you. That is what makes it significant. The definitions are the same, the subject of the definitions is different. We are not conflating Envy with Jealousy, for instance. You are (in your statements), so that you can justify your beliefs. In addition, your explanations in your responding paragraph clearly indicate that you are not coming into this board and discussion with honest intentions.
Sadly, you clearly have not done your homework with respect to the military actions the Israelites took against many of the surrounding peoples. You did not do your homework (as I have previously demonstrated); and that is why you have made the false statements you have made. You are discounting the very same actions which were done by those people to everyone else as well. You are discounting such evil acts that go beyond what the Israelites did leaps and bounds; much worse than just killing. Go look up the child sacrifice to Ba'al if you dont believe me. Tell me that it is not okay to exterminate a people who do that to their children.
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Post by mike on Apr 26, 2021 9:15:11 GMT -6
About lepers - you are misunderstanding things and leaving out parts of Scripture. Lepers were only to be avoided until they were healed cleansed. Kind of like quarantine if you have covid, measles, small pox, etc. Still waiting for an answer on who Jesus is and what the Gospel is... Hi Natalie - I edited the above quote...Lepers were not healed, they were cleansed - BIG difference  |
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