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Post by lionofgod on Apr 2, 2021 12:42:31 GMT -6
Some random thoughts on how people perceive God. I'm keenly aware that in the modern day, man has lost faith. We turn to God when we "decide" we need him, but can't seem to realize that time is every second of every day. People like talking God, if you stick to the nice, forgiving, loving, patient attribute. But when you talk justice, wrath, damnation, or anything not "pretty", people get uncomfortable and consider it argumentative or not "enlightening". Makes me wonder if they even read the Old Testament. Many of these are the same that think the "Law" was nullified when Jesus came. However, Jesus obeyed the law. He obeyed the sabbath, he only got rid of the laws about food and about sacrifice, as he was the sacrifice. All other law is still binding in our covenant with God. He is very clear with regards to what happens if we don't abide by his laws, look at Israel all through the bible! They constantly disobeyed the sabbath and were constantly punished for doing so. If just disobedience can merit such wrath, imagine how he feels about millions of babies being murdered in the womb, or mans all consuming love for money, we fear and obey government, but ignore God. We are even cloning man now. Man is so insanely arrogant that we now are playing God. We don't instruct our children as God instructs us to, we put them in daycare and let someone else raise our kids so we can raise money. We rely on technology and not God, we show no love to our neighbors except when it is easy to do. We make war for ideals and to increase wealth, while we decry our grand morals. We have normalized the acts of sexual deviancy that got whole cities destroyed in the bible. We cover the green earth with plastics, concrete and steel, rape it's resources and waste half of what we take. We ignore the poor and needy, reward the powerful and tolerate sin in life as if it is just "one of those things" that happens, which we can't control. WE abuse children, animals and our fellow man. We most abuse god's patience and virtue. We marginalize sin, acting as if it is something done in "degrees". Fooling ourself into believing that we are really good people since we do make an effort. We expect gratification, and become irritated if we have to wait. we spend more time worshiping ourself in the mirror and on the phone, than we do recognizing God. The largest industry in the world is pornography! That should be a clue. Most people tell themselves that it is just part of life, but how did it get that way? Well, I'll tell you. We allowed it. We let opinion and popular ideals take the place of common sense and god's word. Sad part is, it could change any time we want it changed. If every "Christian" in the US, or even the world, simply stood on their morals and refused to accept the dictates of sinful behavior, we could change the world. Reality is, the world really doesn't want to change, we would rather ignore the atrocities and keep what we have than risk losing it all. That makes us complicit in the evil that surrounds us. The disgusting truth of it, is we want our cake and eat it to. Satan doesn't even hide anymore, he parades around and dances in front of our eyes, laughing at the little toys he plays with. Now, try if you will to imagine you were God, how would you deal with man? What is the righteous and just punishment for all we have done to him?
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Post by yardstick on Apr 2, 2021 20:39:14 GMT -6
Some random thoughts on how people perceive God. I'm keenly aware that in the modern day, man has lost faith. We turn to God when we "decide" we need him, but can't seem to realize that time is every second of every day. People like talking God, if you stick to the nice, forgiving, loving, patient attribute. But when you talk justice, wrath, damnation, or anything not "pretty", people get uncomfortable and consider it argumentative or not "enlightening". Makes me wonder if they even read the Old Testament. Many of these are the same that think the "Law" was nullified when Jesus came. However, Jesus obeyed the law. He obeyed the sabbath, he only got rid of the laws about food and about sacrifice, as he was the sacrifice. All other law is still binding in our covenant with God. He is very clear with regards to what happens if we don't abide by his laws, look at Israel all through the bible! They constantly disobeyed the sabbath and were constantly punished for doing so. If just disobedience can merit such wrath, imagine how he feels about millions of babies being murdered in the womb, or mans all consuming love for money, we fear and obey government, but ignore God. We are even cloning man now. Man is so insanely arrogant that we now are playing God. We don't instruct our children as God instructs us to, we put them in daycare and let someone else raise our kids so we can raise money. We rely on technology and not God, we show no love to our neighbors except when it is easy to do. We make war for ideals and to increase wealth, while we decry our grand morals. We have normalized the acts of sexual deviancy that got whole cities destroyed in the bible. We cover the green earth with plastics, concrete and steel, rape it's resources and waste half of what we take. We ignore the poor and needy, reward the powerful and tolerate sin in life as if it is just "one of those things" that happens, which we can't control. WE abuse children, animals and our fellow man. We most abuse god's patience and virtue. We marginalize sin, acting as if it is something done in "degrees". Fooling ourself into believing that we are really good people since we do make an effort. We expect gratification, and become irritated if we have to wait. we spend more time worshiping ourself in the mirror and on the phone, than we do recognizing God. The largest industry in the world is pornography! That should be a clue. Most people tell themselves that it is just part of life, but how did it get that way? Well, I'll tell you. We allowed it. We let opinion and popular ideals take the place of common sense and god's word. Sad part is, it could change any time we want it changed. If every "Christian" in the US, or even the world, simply stood on their morals and refused to accept the dictates of sinful behavior, we could change the world. Reality is, the world really doesn't want to change, we would rather ignore the atrocities and keep what we have than risk losing it all. That makes us complicit in the evil that surrounds us. The disgusting truth of it, is we want our cake and eat it to. Satan doesn't even hide anymore, he parades around and dances in front of our eyes, laughing at the little toys he plays with. Now, try if you will to imagine you were God, how would you deal with man? What is the righteous and just punishment for all we have done to him?
biblehub.com/matthew/5-18.htmPaul confirms the above statement in many places. Here are two: biblehub.com/niv/galatians/3.htmThe promises (Salvation through faith in Jesus) do not replace the law! Belief in Jesus allows what was promised to be given, because the law was incapable of giving it! biblehub.com/niv/galatians/2.htmPaul would not have called out Peter for the hypocrisy of breaking he Jewish dietary laws, if these laws had been set aside by the work of Christ. What made it worse was that Peter was making the Gentiles comply with Jewish law! If the law was defunct, there would be no need for Paul to call Peter out, because Paul would have said the dietary laws didn't matter! Peter also would not have felt guilty about breaking the dietary laws; and he would not have tried compelling the Gentiles to comply with them either!Paul is very clear that compliance with the law is not a requirement. See Romans 2. Paul is clearly talking to the Jews here:biblehub.com/niv/romans/2.htmbiblehub.com/romans/6-14.htmBTW, if you want to put yourself under the law, you are welcome to do so: but I think I (and others) would rather have Salvation by Faith instead. I am pretty sure we already discussed humanity's [in]ability to comply with the law (all aspects of it) in another thread - it's not possible, so good luck with being declared righteous under the law.
I would also warn you that if you prefer to be judged by your actions under the law (making Christ's work of no value in your case), then God will most certainly let you have your way.
Also, you may wish to spend some time researching Legalism:
biblehub.com/topical/l/legalism.htmYou have just described the sin nature of man. Saved or not. However:
We are not called the change the world!
We are not called to change the hearts of men - that is the Holy Spirit's job!
We are not called to bring about God's Kingdom on Earth. That is Jesus' job, when he returns!
We are not called to compel others to righteousness/salvation, nor are we called to compel others to 'fix' the world's problems. We are not called to 'right every wrong'.
We are called to spread the good news and to love our neighbor (by actions, not just words); we are called to wait and watch; and we are called to be beacons of light in the darkness (set the example). |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 3, 2021 8:49:35 GMT -6
I would like to add from Acts 15
5But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”
19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 3, 2021 9:08:54 GMT -6
Can you please explain your statement in light of this quote:biblehub.com/matthew/5-18.htm
17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.Paul confirms the above statement in many places. Here are two:
Everything will not be accomplished until Jesus return, so then by your own quote, we are still to obey the law God put forth.biblehub.com/niv/galatians/3.htm
21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
The promises (Salvation through faith in Jesus) do not replace the law! Belief in Jesus allows what was promised to be given, because the law was incapable of giving it!
biblehub.com/niv/galatians/2.htm
11When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12For before certain men came from James, [Peter] used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?15“We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified....
19“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”Paul would not have called out Peter for the hypocrisy of breaking he Jewish dietary laws, if these laws had been set aside by the work of Christ. What made it worse was that Peter was making the Gentiles comply with Jewish law! If the law was defunct, there would be no need for Paul to call Peter out, because Paul would have said the dietary laws didn't matter! Peter also would not have felt guilty about breaking the dietary laws; and he would not have tried compelling the Gentiles to comply with them either!Paul is very clear that compliance with the law is not a requirement. See Romans 2. Paul is clearly talking to the Jews here:
I took the liberty of color coding your own quote and the fact that it is opposite your statement.biblehub.com/niv/romans/2.htm12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) biblehub.com/romans/6-14.htm14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. I would also warn you that if you prefer to be judged by your actions under the law (making Christ's work of no value in your case), then God will most certainly let you have your way.
Your judgements on me are many and spoken with authority, is that a gift granted you by God, or perhaps a parable from scripture?
Also, you may wish to spend some time researching Legalism:biblehub.com/topical/l/legalism.htmBrother, your instructing me to study a study guide about a concept in the bible, rather than just apply God's word?You have just described the sin nature of man. Saved or not. However:
We are not called the change the world! - and yet Christ sent out the apostles to help him do just thatWe are not called to change the hearts of men - that is the Holy Spirit's job!- so we are not to be fishers of men, as Christ described? We are not called to bring about God's Kingdom on Earth. That is Jesus' job, when he returns!- I have never made any such claim, I did infer we could all stand up for God and change the worldWe are not called to compel others to righteousness/salvation, nor are we called to compel others to 'fix' the world's problems. We are not called to 'right every wrong'. - Really? You sure sound like you are advocating sin and the tolerance of it.We are called to spread the good news and to love our neighbor (by actions, not just words); we are called to wait and watch; and we are called to be beacons of light in the darkness (set the example).- And you idea of setting God's example is NOT to call out people that sin, NOT to try to guide people to God, thereby changing their life? That sounds very un-Christ like. Christ is the example for us all, did he allow sinners to go without pointing out their sin? Did he not encourage us to be keepers of or brothers, to uplift and to guide and to love? You don't love your neighbor by ignoring his offenses to God, you love him by helping him to see them and correct them. So that he may gain entry to heaven thru Jesus as you have.Brother Yardstick, I'm starting to think you enjoy being contentious. But I'll try this again. You highlighted a lot and asked for clarification, while already making judgement on my intent. As to the food issue, here is a scripture for you.Acts 11:6-106Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 7And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat. 8But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth. 9But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 10And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven. Now to your bigger inference, I don't see anywhere that I declare salvation or righteousness is by the law. What I did say was that we are still expected to obey the law and uphold it, with the exception of sacrifice, which Jesus fulfilled and diet, which the verse I put above covers. You seem to be advocating for the ability to do as we wish because Jesus saves. Or are you insinuating that god lies? For he says that his laws and commandments are a covenant for ALL time/forever and ever/ etc. depending on which verse you choose. So your saying he changed his mind? That he didn't already know when he made the laws that Jesus would come? It's also said "if you love me you will obey my commandments" -BTW, if you want to put yourself under the law, you are welcome to do so: but I think I (and others) would rather have Salvation by Faith instead. I am pretty sure we already discussed humanity's [in]ability to comply with the law (all aspects of it) in another thread - it's not possible, so good luck with being declared righteous under the law.I'm not sure who agreed that we cannot comply with the law, it was not me. I go with the bible on that one, not your consensus.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievousRomans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?Romans 2:6-116 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God. Galatians 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.2 Thessalonians 3:11-1612 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread. 13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. 14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. 16 Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all. Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.- This one says it all.
Brother, I'm unsure of your motives, but you seem very quick to judge and to pass out advice. May God place peace in your heart and love on your tongue.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 3, 2021 9:16:30 GMT -6
lionofgod , I also want to address something from one of your other posts. You compared how we have gotten the Bible to the children's game "Telephone". Here's some things for you to read/watch and consider. This video is only about a minute and a half or so and summarizes things quiet nicely.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 3, 2021 9:41:41 GMT -6
What was the purpose of the Law? (The whole book of Galatians is great)
Galatians 3:21-26
21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. (read 4:21-31 for context)
Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 3, 2021 11:01:58 GMT -6
Brothers and sisters - Since there seems to be contention with my words overmuch, I will lay out (biblically) what I assert according to the Law, as per scripture. So as to be crystal clear as to MY intentions. I will state Truth, then I will provide facts and scripture after to back up the truth. First we must establish what commandments and Law are, so here are the definitions of each.
COMMANDMENT, noun
1. A command; a mandate; an order or injunction given by authority; charge; precept.
Why do ye transgress the commandment of God. Matthew 15:3.
This is the first and great commandment Matthew 22:38.
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another. John 13:34.
2. By way of eminence, a precept of the decalogue, or moral law, written on tables of stone, at Mount Sinai; one of the ten commandments. Exodus 34:32.
LAW, noun [Latin lex; from the root of lay. See lay. A law is that which is laid, set or fixed, like statute, constitution, from Latin statuo.]
1. A rule, particularly an established or permanent rule, prescribed by the supreme power of a state to its subjects, for regulating their actions, particularly their social actions. Laws are imperative or mandatory, commanding what shall be done; prohibitory, restraining from what is to be forborn; or permissive, declaring what may be done without incurring a penalty. The laws which enjoin the duties of piety and morality, are prescribed by God and found in the Scriptures.
Jesus gave his life on the cross, that HIS blood would be the payment for all man's sin. In other words he fulfilled the Law of sacrifice. Therefore we no longer must make sacrifices to atone for sin, as they did in the Old Testament. He also made clear that dietary restrictions were no longer necessary, as when he said that no man should make unclean what the lord has made clean, when talking about the animals which could be eaten. However, what he did not do, was go against the Fathers own promise, that HIS law was forever and everlasting. He even went so far as to tell us if we loved god we would obey his law/commandments. Jesus actually reasserts God's law, adding thou shat love one another. He also observed the Sabbath, and the other laws too. Can you believe in Jesus authority to provide salvation and NOT obey the Law? No. But we are instructed to obey, even though we will fall short, for by obeying His law, you love him and honor Him. As well, in doing so, he promises us the Holy Spirit, who CAN aid us in walking in God's word and obeying his law. We cannot accomplish this alone, only the Spirit can enable this, for when the spirit resides within us, we WILL obey the law, for he makes it natural to do so, as he has resided within. We are then both freed from under the law and simultaneously will naturally abide by it.
I believe the core issue here is the same as I have discussed before. Faith/works and how they are applied and/or expected by God.
This has been a thorn in the foot of the churches for along time. I don't now and won't ever see the separate distinctions which people wish to assert. Jesus, who is the ultimate authority on this, makes it very clear. But people insist on dividing His word and applying it as they see it, not as prescribed by Him.
The apostles, when teaching the gospels to the churches, did as any man would do. They tailored the teaching to the needs of that church. So, one apostle whom is instructing a church od great faith, but little works, will emphasize the works, as that is their need. Another apostle teaching a church of great works, but lacking in faith, would get a faith based teaching. This is not to say that both are not truth. Jesus taught that He was our salvation, that believing in His sacrifice was the way to heaven, through Faith. But he also taught that faith without works is dead.
If your faith is dead, you have none, so by Jesus own words, you cannot enter into heaven. The obvious point that people cannot seem to grasp, is that the two are intertwined and unable to be separated, once bound. Unless that is, you have chosen not to follow God, as we can do. (free will) They are "bound" by the gift of the Holy spirit. If you only have faith, it is not enough without works. If you only have works, it is not enough without faith.
Now if your dead set on making a separation, it can only be done in as much as your works cannot bring you to believe. So belief must come first, you cannot have faith in something you don't believe in. Because faith and belief are separate things. You first believe, then a byproduct of that belief is the desire to do good works, which itself IS an act of faith. remove the faith and it means nothing, remove the work and you achieve the same result. Asserting that only one or the other is needed is contrary to God's word. Jesus asserts both, therefore both are needed. That simple.
Now we insert Law. Obeying God's law is the best work we can do, as it it both required of us and it is evidence of our faith. If we love him, we will obey His law. Now, since I see NO scriptural evidence to be contrary to Jesus further, here are scriptures to back up my assertion of Truth.
James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect
James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Revelation 2:19
I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
John 6:28
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 9:3
Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
John 10:37
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Acts 26:20
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Romans 9:32
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
2 Corinthians 11:15
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Galatians 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ok, I can provide a few hundred more at least according to the handy search of my online bible, but this is enough to prove the truth of it by scripture.
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 3, 2021 11:27:01 GMT -6
lionofgod , I also want to address something from one of your other posts. You compared how we have gotten the Bible to the children's game "Telephone". Here's some things for you to read/watch and consider. This video is only about a minute and a half or so and summarizes things quiet nicely.
Sister, I fear you may be assuming other than what I stated. The Masoretic text is one that was handed down orally till written. That is a fact not in dispute by anyone that I know of. The premise of "the phone game" is to orally pass a message along as well. But you have the added advantage of actually KNOWING what was said in the first place. So, no second hand knowledge or insights are needed to judge the ability to do so without altering the message. I didn't acuse the text or make it right or wrong, just stated the facts. The Masoretic text and the greek differ at times, that is fact as well. It has also been proven via the dead sea scrolls and the other texts found therein, that the greek is nearly word for word, where as the Masoretic has differing places more often. This was not known before the discovery of those texts. Many scholars have since adjusted to this revelation, some have chosen to ignore it. I encourage each person to choose according to what THEY believe. Having read much of both, I fall on the Greek side, but don't believe that it is neccesarily a salvation issue. The message is more important than the words used to convey it. Before the commandments, the word was oral, but God decided a written account was needed. One can only assume since his stated issue was that the people were not obeying, that a oral passing was not sufficient enough. That being said, if we believe the New Tesament was inspired by God, than we must also believe he thought a written accounting was again needed. I will add here that the holders of the oral account were totally opposed to sharing it written as the Masoretic text. But became persuaded to do so. The Greek, was commissioned of 70 elders, 10 of each tribe. After being asked to transcribe the gospels, their works were all the same, even though they didn't consult one another. Which is why it is commonly refered to as the LXX bible version, or the book of the seventy. In my estimation, if 70 jewish elders all virtually wrote the same text without comparing notes, that would qualify as divinely inspired. But again, that's just my opinion and as it pertains to my salvation, it is my choice to make. Just as each of you must make your own choices. |
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 3, 2021 11:35:20 GMT -6
What was the purpose of the Law? (The whole book of Galatians is great) Galatians 3:21-26 21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. (read 4:21-31 for context) Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. If you read the introduction to Galations, you'll note a few things. 1. this is Paul's writing 2. He is writing to a very specific church with a very specific issue. The Church of Galatia, which had shifted it's focus off of it's faith and had put it into their works. So, as I covered in the other posting, Galations is heavy toward faith, because that is the area they needed work on. So, if your issue is relying on works without faith, that is a go to book. However it is in error not to consider the reasoning for the writing to begin with. They already had the gospel, but were falling off, he was not teaching the gospel for the first time, but correcting an error in the churches observance. |
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 3, 2021 11:53:33 GMT -6
The bible is purpose written and it has introduction and context given before each book for a reason. We are expected to read that for context BEFORE we read the letter/book. Doing so gives us clarity as to the reason the book is written as it is. Each letter to each church or churches, is addressed to them specifically, not an over arching letter to all churches. So, when we read the bible, we must not infer where we think it puts weight, as it applies to us. The letter was not written to address us, but that church. As a whole, these letters do address the issues we face, but one at a time, the writers never envisioned we would be scrutinizing everything they said, that they would need to cover all things for all churches in each letter. That is just not rational. If someone errs, we do not need to correct all their actions or behaviors, only the ones that caused the err. Such is the bible. Written of MANY books, that the totality will cover all needs but no individual book does. The trick if you will, to understanding it, is to see that each book compliments the others, not to pick out words that may seem to contradict. The writers had a difficult job to do, none are perfect, as we also are not. To expect or ascribe that to any person or thing save God, is folly of belief. Had the Galatians issues been the only issues, then only one book is needed. But we know the world is a varied place and each part will tend as they may, so each part needs attending of a specific kind. The overall will cover all, but the individual will cover the individual issues. Natalie, |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 3, 2021 19:38:53 GMT -6
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Works aren't necessarily Law keeping.James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect Again, works, no mention of keeping the Law.James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Revelation 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Doesn't say anything about keeping the Law.James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. same as aboveJames 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. and again...nothing about LawJames 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Yes, I agree, we must live out our faith, but this doesn't say practice the Law.James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. I do agree...our life should reflect our relationship with the Savior.Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Context - this does not say we have to follow the Law.John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. What works did Jesus do? Miracle? healings? He's not saying "the keeping of the Law that I do, you will do greater" Many think that the greater work is the preaching of the Gospel to the World.Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Finally one about the Law, but in context it doesn't say anything about following it. In context, the Law pointed to the Promise (the Messiah) and the need for faith in Him. We establish the Law for it's intended purpose - to point to our need for a Savior. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Nothing about the Law here.John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Read the following verse "Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” Again, nothing about the LawJohn 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. Works of God - a miracle - nothing about the LawJohn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. The works are the signs and miracles. Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. There lives should reflect that they have repented and are following God. So, for example, stop bringing sacrifices to idols. Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; The Jews were pursuing righteousness through the Law and not by faith. But righteousness is always by faith.2 Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Not about the Law. Read this one in context. It's speaking of false teachers. Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Yes, salvation by faith not the Law.Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Again, look this one up in context!Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Doesn't say anything about the Law. These works are things that show our faith, but it doesn't say follow the Law. |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 3, 2021 19:58:10 GMT -6
Yes, I believe that God will write His law on our hearts, but that above all that is "love the Lord Your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength" and "Love your neighbor as yourself." For on these two rests all the Law and the Prophets. (I can get the reference later) and then we will walk in the good works He has for us (Eph 2:10 - not Law) This is how we show our faith, but living in relationship with Him - we live by faith not by keeping the Laws of Moses.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 3, 2021 20:09:37 GMT -6
What was the purpose of the Law? (The whole book of Galatians is great) Galatians 3:21-26 21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. (read 4:21-31 for context) Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. If you read the introduction to Galations, you'll note a few things. 1. this is Paul's writing 2. He is writing to a very specific church with a very specific issue. The Church of Galatia, which had shifted it's focus off of it's faith and had put it into their works. So, as I covered in the other posting, Galations is heavy toward faith, because that is the area they needed work on. So, if your issue is relying on works without faith, that is a go to book. However it is in error not to consider the reasoning for the writing to begin with. They already had the gospel, but were falling off, he was not teaching the gospel for the first time, but correcting an error in the churches observance. I am going to disagree with you a bit on this.
Galatians 1:6-7 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel -not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
They wanted to distort the gospel by saying that the believers had to come under the Law in order to complete their salvation. They need faith plus the Law. Paul says that is another gospel and they are deserting Christ.
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 3, 2021 21:01:28 GMT -6
I am going to disagree with you a bit on this.
Galatians 1:6-7 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel -not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
As I was pointing out, they had the gospel of Jesus already and were falling off. the church was dividing in what they were practicing, beginning to place the ones on works and letting faith be secondary. So, he wrote to them and emphasized the need for faith, not works. they were already doing works before, along with faith. (Jesus gospel) But so soon were abandoning it for a works /law centered gospel. As opposed to a faith/works gospel.
They wanted to distort the gospel by saying that the believers had to come under the Law in order to complete their salvation. They need faith plus the Law. Paul says that is another gospel and they are deserting Christ.
I don't think we are as far apart as you may think here. Your tendency is to take each part of the gospel individually by what you feel the bible says is most important. When I do that, it makes the message seem to sterile. I look at the gospel as a whole, each part needed and complimentary to the others. I can't really separate the parts and keep the meaning of the words. Because of this I try not to focus on distinguishing by importance of the act or work or belief or faith, but that if your following the gospel he taught, your doing all of these anyway. If you think looking at it from the other perspective is the correct way, I'm not gonna knock it. It's your choice as is all of ours, individually. When I disagree, i'll say why. But it isn't important to me that you convert to my thinking. If we agree that's cool. I'll still consider any opinion anyone has other than mine, I may see a different thing at a future date, so I try not to be totally rigid in my thought with few exceptions of obvious nature. I also read writings from other Noted books of the time and other authors whom also teach the same Gospel of Jesus, but were not needed in the bible. It helps me to see what issues they faced, how they thought, what others said about them, etc. I find it makes reading ancient text languages easier to understand and discern. But again, that is just me. As long as we are both hanging from the same tree when Jesus returns, I am confident he won't kick either out for which limbs they used to climb the tree. God Bless. |
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Post by yardstick on Apr 3, 2021 23:52:01 GMT -6
Can you please explain your statement in light of this quote:Everything will not be accomplished until Jesus return, so then by your own quote, we are still to obey the law God put forth....
I took the liberty of color coding your own quote and the fact that it is opposite your statement.biblehub.com/niv/romans/2.htm... 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous...Your judgements on me are many and spoken with authority, is that a gift granted you by God, or perhaps a parable from scripture?
Also, you may wish to spend some time researching Legalism:biblehub.com/topical/l/legalism.htmBrother, your instructing me to study a study guide about a concept in the bible, rather than just apply God's word?You have just described the sin nature of man. Saved or not. However:We are not called the change the world! - and yet Christ sent out the apostles to help him do just thatWe are not called to change the hearts of men - that is the Holy Spirit's job!- so we are not to be fishers of men, as Christ described? We are not called to bring about God's Kingdom on Earth. That is Jesus' job, when he returns!- I have never made any such claim, I did infer we could all stand up for God and change the worldWe are not called to compel others to righteousness/salvation, nor are we called to compel others to 'fix' the world's problems. We are not called to 'right every wrong'. - Really? You sure sound like you are advocating sin and the tolerance of it.We are called to spread the good news and to love our neighbor (by actions, not just words); we are called to wait and watch; and we are called to be beacons of light in the darkness (set the example).- And you idea of setting God's example is NOT to call out people that sin, NOT to try to guide people to God, thereby changing their life? That sounds very un-Christ like. Christ is the example for us all, did he allow sinners to go without pointing out their sin? Did he not encourage us to be keepers of or brothers, to uplift and to guide and to love? You don't love your neighbor by ignoring his offenses to God, you love him by helping him to see them and correct them. So that he may gain entry to heaven thru Jesus as you have.Brother Yardstick, I'm starting to think you enjoy being contentious. But I'll try this again. You highlighted a lot and asked for clarification, while already making judgement on my intent. As to the food issue, here is a scripture for you.Acts 11:6-106Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 7And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat. 8But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth. 9But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 10And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven. Now to your bigger inference, I don't see anywhere that I declare salvation or righteousness is by the law. What I did say was that we are still expected to obey the law and uphold it, with the exception of sacrifice, which Jesus fulfilled and diet, which the verse I put above covers. You seem to be advocating for the ability to do as we wish because Jesus saves. Or are you insinuating that god lies? For he says that his laws and commandments are a covenant for ALL time/forever and ever/ etc. depending on which verse you choose. So your saying he changed his mind? That he didn't already know when he made the laws that Jesus would come? It's also said "if you love me you will obey my commandments" -BTW, if you want to put yourself under the law, you are welcome to do so: but I think I (and others) would rather have Salvation by Faith instead. I am pretty sure we already discussed humanity's [in]ability to comply with the law (all aspects of it) in another thread - it's not possible, so good luck with being declared righteous under the law.I'm not sure who agreed that we cannot comply with the law, it was not me. I go with the bible on that one, not your consensus.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievousRomans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?Romans 2:6-116 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God. Galatians 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.2 Thessalonians 3:11-1612 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread. 13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. 14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. 16 Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all. Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.- This one says it all.
Brother, I'm unsure of your motives, but you seem very quick to judge and to pass out advice. May God place peace in your heart and love on your tongue. Heretofore, it appears that you have been referring to OT Mosaic law, from what I understand. If you are referring to a different kind of law other than the law set forth in the OT; Paul clearly identifies it as such in Romans 8: It is the second 'law' in this sentence which is the Mosaic Law, not the first. The 'law' referred to in the Romans 2 passage was contextually taken and explained to you as directed at the Jews; and is now further clarified to you that it was originally written to compare/contrast The righteousness of the Gentiles who had no Law, with the unrighteousness of the Jews who had it. Paul did this juxtaposition to show how the law does not make anyone righteous. So in this instance, you took the passage in question out of context to create a straw-man argument, while disregarding the rest of Paul's point, which was explained to you in this thread here:
board.unsealed.org/post/38163/threadThat keeping the law is impossible, that people do not lose their sin nature when they get saved, and that keeping the law is works. If one is a believer, and is trying to keep the law, GREAT! But telling others that they have to too is legalism.Just so we are all on the same page:
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/judgement
Yes. Absolutely. To the extent that the Creator has given me the gift of seeing when someone has made an error in their paraphrase of Biblical passages or doctrine. And yes, to the extent that the Owner of this site has empowered me to exercise such authority. The authority you agreed to comply with when you created the account on this site, and subjected yourself to the Terms of Service.Yes, Absolutely. Do you think the people who developed these kinds of 'study guides' did not apply God's Word in their development? Do you think you can learn nothing from their study and application?No, He did not send them out to 'help him do just that [change the world]'. He sent them out into the world to convert the people who would go out into the world to spread the good news. Their first mandate was to convert the Jews, then afterwards the Gentiles:
biblehub.com/matthew/28-19.htm
Changing the world is the end result of the process, not the purpose of it.
A 'Fisher of Men' is someone who is out looking for people who want to become disciples. He is 'fishing'. He is not there to 'change their heart'. Their heart is already in a state of wanting to be changed. It is not the apostle that changes the heart, it is the Holy Spirit. When Jesus said that, he was using a figurative statement that the apostles (who were fishermen) would understand easily. Do you think they, as fishermen, caught ALL the fish [men]; or only some of the fish [men]? If they did not catch all the [men] were they in violation of Christ's command in Matt 28:19?No, you didnt; however I believe you could see that I grouped this thought in with the others, because it made a parallelistic sense to do so. The Holy Spirit's job is to convict men to repentance. Jesus' job is to take Dominion of the earth in due course. And yes, those are simplistic statements. It is so much more than that. However you may, or may not, make an impact on the world. Such evaluation is not done in this life; and it is not an evaluation done of your own work, by you. It is done at the judgment of Believers for reward. If your focus is on how much impact you are having, your focus is on the wrong thing. This is a vile and grossly insulting accusation at best. Wholly unsuited to someone professing Christ. Nevertheless, Paul addresses it here:
Romans 3
Peter agrees: There is a substantial difference between advocating and forbearance. Do you condemn God for his forbearance? No. My idea is to love my neighbor. Sometimes that means i.e., calling out sin. Sometimes it does not. It means planting seeds, not force-feeding someone something they do not want. You catch more flies with honey, than vinegar. But the prompter for doing so, or not doing so is not you. It is the Holy Spirit. Yes, he allowed sinners to go without pointing out their sin: Luke 18Nowhere in the above passage did Jesus call the Ruler out. He simply told him what he needed to do. Do you think the ruler was without sin? Guess what: he wasn't. His sin was wanting the wealth, rather than Jesus; despite compliance with the Law. Yet Jesus did not accuse him of it, nor condemn him. He simply observed that it was harder for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God.
The Beggar in the subsequent anecdote of the same chapter... do you think he was sinless? Yet Jesus did not call him out. He healed him because the man believed.
The man with Leprosy in Chapter 8 of Matthew. No call out of sin.
The Roman Centurion of the same chapter, praised for his faith! Not shamed for his sin.
There is no dispute in the notion of what you have said. It is the methods used that are in dispute. The prompting to do all that you have listed here comes from the Holy Spirit. Not of yourself. Your neighbor's offenses to God are none of your business. His offenses to you are your business, though of course you are commanded to forgive those; and thus, demonstrate the love of God.You can only help your neighbor see his offenses and correct them if he wants you to; and if he wants them seen and corrected. As has been discussed before, it is the Holy Spirit's job to convict. Not yours. IF he should gain entry to heaven as you have, it will be by the Holy Spirit of God leading him there, not by your power or ability.Yes, it has been apparent that you believe you can comply with the law. You are welcome to try. I leave it up to you to pursue such things; however, please keep your legalism to yourself.I (and others) prefer to trust what Jesus did, not what I/we can do. |
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