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Post by Gary on Nov 20, 2020 9:57:47 GMT -6
Yes, there is definitely a revival coming during the Tribulation, but it will be in the midst of the greatest calamity the world has ever seen. Even greater than the Flood. Sinners who refuse Christ will be destroyed from the face of the earth. Those who give God the glory will remain.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 20, 2020 10:02:04 GMT -6
I agree that there is going to be many coming to Christ, but the way I took Venge's post is that there will be a great world wide change because of those coming to Christ.
My understanding is that there is not a great change; those coming to Christ will be pursued and killed. (Rev 12 for example)
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Post by mike on Nov 20, 2020 10:37:46 GMT -6
Natalie and others - I once understood this parable combined with Psalm 90:10 as the nation being reestablished and that the Lord would return before the generation had passed. This was what I was taught. However, I am now seeing this illuminated differently or perhaps I should say brighter. As I said in my first post the parable involves Israel. The entire 3 synoptics are about Israel and the end of the world as that was the question of the disciples. However, the question also involves the end of the world as well which is greater than just Jerusalem and the land of Israel. Is anyone missing that the entire chapter(s) is not exclusively dealing with Israel/Jerusalem? If so please show me where in the entire chapters of Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 that Jesus is talking specifically about Israel being rebirthed as a nation and only that? What I read is that the context of the chapter(s) is about the destruction of Jerusalem/70 AD and the end times. Also for context purposes - The Jews have to be in the land before the end as they are the focus in the Great Tribulation What does He say in the verses? What is He referring to? Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.These things are plural. He is using a parable to illustrate the wars, famines, rumors of wars, earthquakes and destructive things in the preceding verses. He is speaking of THOSE things, not THIS thing (meaning exclusively Israel in the land). As Venge pointed out referencing back to Lukes account, there are other trees in the discussion Jesus had with the disciples. What of the other trees? How do we ignore the other trees and just make an application of one solo Fig tree and say this = Israel in the land and only that. It cant be just that, which is what I was trying to point out in previous posts. Israel is not just a fig tree. Just like you (picking on Natalie) are not just a mom. You are a mom, daughter, wife, possibly sibling I apologize for not communicating this as a precisely as I would like to, but I think should explore further than "70 and if by strength 80"...the parable isnt about that, its much more. I will leave at agree to disagree on it. I love you guys and was hoping to be able to get what I am seeing across clearly but am not always proficient at it, Grrr! EDIT - It took me 3 hours to finish this post due to home interruptions. I started writing before SoCals post  |
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Post by Natalie on Nov 20, 2020 11:29:07 GMT -6
Natalie and others - I once understood this parable combined with Psalm 90:10 as the nation being reestablished and that the Lord would return before the generation had passed. This was what I was taught. However, I am now seeing this illuminated differently or perhaps I should say brighter. As I said in my first post the parable involves Israel. The entire 3 synoptics are about Israel and the end of the world as that was the question of the disciples. However, the question also involves the end of the world as well which is greater than just Jerusalem and the land of Israel. Is anyone missing that the entire chapter(s) is not exclusively dealing with Israel/Jerusalem? If so please show me where in the entire chapters of Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 that Jesus is talking specifically about Israel being rebirthed as a nation and only that? What I read is that the context of the chapter(s) is about the destruction of Jerusalem/70 AD and the end times. Also for context purposes - The Jews have to be in the land before the end as they are the focus in the Great Tribulation What does He say in the verses? What is He referring to? Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.These things are plural. He is using a parable to illustrate the wars, famines, rumors of wars, earthquakes and destructive things in the preceding verses. He is speaking of THOSE things, not THIS thing (meaning exclusively Israel in the land).
I agree with you.
I was just confused when you (mike and venge) started talking about their fruit. I don't think that it can be that we are watching for "good fruit" to point to the return of Christ. I just don't see that in the parable or context.
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Post by stormyknight on Nov 20, 2020 11:35:16 GMT -6
I'm still going through Andy Woods' bible studies on the rapture. I would like to know what you all think about this as he points out, the Olivet discourse is to the Jews. It is for the nation of Israel, not for the church as the church will be gone by the time these events take place. Please take time to listen and see what you think. What really hit me was when he talks about the God dividing the nation, only 1/3 being saved. That cannot be the church as we either believe or we don't. If one does not believe, he/she is not part of the church. The church is made up of 100% believers.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 20, 2020 11:41:52 GMT -6
stormyknight, I should have time later today to give it a listen. I agree, though, that Jesus was speaking to Jews about the Jewish nation. God won't divide the Church, for the reason you mentioned, and also the Church isn't a nation; it's made up of many tribes, tongues and nations.
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Post by mike on Nov 20, 2020 11:58:40 GMT -6
NatalieFruit has a lot to do with it too. Look back at what I tried convey on page 1. I dont think fruit will increase, my point was that it will decrease which is what we are seeing in the 'church'. Also when I refer to the 'church' understand I am not referring to the faithful, but the social, all inclusive, prosperity church that is ignoring the true gospel today. Those who state its ok to have gay marriage or abortion and still consider themselves Christian. I do however see that there will be a time of fruit as grow nearer to the end, as the contractions increase. The remnant will produce more fruit. The remnant will shine brighter as the darkness increases around us
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Post by mike on Nov 20, 2020 12:01:37 GMT -6
stormyknight , the video you share starts at 27 minutes, was that intentional? EDIT-Also understand that in seeing the title of this, it is a pre-trib view. So those who do not see a pre-trib rapture (like me) will not concur with his assessment of the discourse
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Post by stormyknight on Nov 20, 2020 12:01:44 GMT -6
also, I want to make clear that I'm not discounting anything. The parable of the fig tree is an excellent marker to see where we are in time. I totally agree. I was just learning that when Jesus gave this parable, it was to the jews about jews, not the church. We're all about the gospel of salvation(now) where the jews are all about the gospel of the Kingdom(future).
mike, no that was not. I was going over that part when I copied the URL. Sorry!!! |
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Post by Natalie on Nov 20, 2020 16:02:21 GMT -6
stormyknight, One of the things that has really come to my attention in the last several months is that of audience. I am starting to grasp what teachers mean when they say that all of the Bible is for us but not all of it was written to us. (or something like that ) There have been some passages lately that just went so much deeper for me when I really took into account who the book/letter was written to. I agree with Pastor Woods that Matthew is the most Jewish of the Gospels. It's packed with OT references and things the Jews would get. I think that's probably why it is the opening book in the NT. I have heard testimonies of Jews who opened the NT and started reading and were amazed at how Jewish it is. I am only half way through the video (I'm at the point where he starts the parables), but I can see that a proper interpretation of the parables depends on who you think the audience is. I look forward to finishing it.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 20, 2020 20:34:57 GMT -6
It is my understanding that Matthew was indeed written to convert the Jew. It is placed first because it is the longest gospel; they are organized from the longest to the shortest. Secondly, Mark is believed to be John Mark that was with Peter; thus, the second gospel is technically from Peter as given to John Mark. Third, the great and wonderful Luke that was Paul's traveling companion and he continued his fantastic work with the Acts of the apostles. Lastly is the awesome John who wrote to the members of the church. Please notice in this gospel that he is not trying to convert but takes the converted member into greater aspects of the Savior's ministry. Can't help but love the 4 gospels. They are truly the bedrock of the NT.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 20, 2020 20:49:34 GMT -6
I don't think you are quite right...Mark is the shortest Gospel.
I also looked it up... Matthew has more chapters, but Luke has more verses and words.
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Post by venge on Nov 21, 2020 8:43:10 GMT -6
But the part you quoted and the part underlined did not mention the wicked repenting or world wide faith in Christ. It mentions the remnant. This is because you and I see differently. You’re still looking at a prophecy in the spirit literally worded. |
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Post by venge on Nov 21, 2020 8:45:45 GMT -6
I'm not sure the connection of Song of Solomon and the harvest is accurate. You wouldn't prune a tree that is blossoming. Grapevines would be pruned before they start producing not at a harvest. If you noticed, the example was sprouting, then fruit then pruning in SoS |
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Post by venge on Nov 21, 2020 8:55:51 GMT -6
I agree that there is going to be many coming to Christ, but the way I took Venge's post is that there will be a great world wide change because of those coming to Christ. My understanding is that there is not a great change; those coming to Christ will be pursued and killed. (Rev 12 for example) The world will acknowledge God as existing and relate those times to him. This acknowledgement of God leads to repentance. The remnants, who once refused God and did not repent, no longer refuse God. It paves the way for his coming Kingdom where he reigns after that event. |
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