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Post by venge on Nov 2, 2020 7:32:32 GMT -6
Natalie , As I stated earlier, I am still searching out the meaning of these 2 words: "guests" and "bride". I was viewing some websites last night (I know some can be very bad doctrine) to see how others arrived at their position. One in particular, I had noticed I did err. In this site, the guests are still the Bride. But they are not concurrent. I should have realized this and just as many things in the Bible, sometimes we have to go through others verses and read over them 50 times before it comes in clearly. What do I mean? In this article, the writer describes the guests as those who were invited by evangelizing. These "guests" were told the good news and by hearing, were given invitations to the wedding. When the wedding approaches, the "guests" get ready to go with the bridegroom inside. But a problem occurs... Some guests are prepared and wearing wedding garments...others are not, though the wedding garment was free. The ones not wearing it basically said, "I don't care" or "I don't care to wear one". They are refused entrance where the others are allowed. The "guests" that are acceptable are the bride. The "guests" that are unacceptable are thrown into darkness where the door is closed and they cannot enter in till all things have been completed. I had not made the connection to the ones that didnt dress for it compared to the ones that did. On that, I did err..knowing full well that parable. I know this doesnt support your opinion. I had found it just searching any opinions, but the part I realized was that I should explain not all "guests" are accepted. Therefore, if the "guests" are part of the bride, not all the "guests" are the bride. The "guests" cast out, are those who were offered salvation and refused it for whatever means if by material wealth, the love of this world, they didnt believe etc.. Also, I am finding some believe that in the O.T., the day Kings were crowned, they had pre wedding feasts. If this is true...that could change understanding. Examples are given in 1 Kings 1:5, 9. And 1 Chronicles 29:19-24 they made a feast for Solomon before he sat on the throne. And we know from Song of Solomon that he gets married in the same day he is crowned King. Then there is Psalm 45:10 Jamieson-Fausset-Brown says of it: It shows Christ is the bridegroom which the Jews rejected. In Matthew 22, the Jews were supposed to the the bride but they were also the "guests" that did not receive him. So the Jews being guests and the bride were not accepted. The King sends out his servants to bring in more "guests" that may be worthy. I am still sifting through info...this is a fun discussion. Now it gets interesting. The bride doesnt change in the parable. She is still waiting to get married to Christ...but other "guests" are needed to replace the "guests" they refused. The bride being God's chosen people. He chooses her way back when...but she must make herself ready in order to be a chaste virgin and acceptable.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 2, 2020 8:12:18 GMT -6
venge , I'd like more clarification on what you mean with this "but she must make herself ready in order to be a chaste virgin and acceptable." I agree with you, sort of.  I do agree that those guests who accepted the free wedding attire (God's gift of salvation) are those who become the Bride of Christ. They are believers. The ones thrown out are those who have rejected Christ (both Jew and Gentile). But I still think it's just an illustration of the truth He was trying to convey. In the context of Matthew, He had just told the parable about the vineyard and how terrible the servants (prophets) were treated by the tenants (Jewish leaders). They would even reject the son of the master. The vineyard would be given away (others will accept the truth) and the tenants cast out. I see the wedding feast parable as explaining the same truth. The Jewish leaders reject Jesus, so the call will go out to others. You can't get into the Kingdom without Christ (Gal 3:27). It's an illustration of the Kingdom (Matt 22:2), not specifically the end wedding/feast.
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Post by mike on Nov 2, 2020 8:33:14 GMT -6
When is the wedding?
Song 3:1 On my couch by night, I sought him whom my soul hath loved; I sought him, and I found him not! 2 Pray, let me rise, and go round the city, In the streets and in the broad places, I seek him whom my soul hath loved!—I sought him, and I found him not. 3 The watchmen have found me, (Who are going round about the city, ‘Him whom my soul have loved saw ye?’ 4 But a little I passed on from them, Till I found him whom my soul hath loved! I seized him, and let him not go, Till I brought him in unto the house of my mother—And the chamber of her that conceived me. 5 I have adjured you, daughters of Jerusalem, By the roes or by the hinds of the field, Stir not up nor wake the love till she please!?
Song 5:2 I sleep, but my heart waketh: [it is] the voice of my beloved that knocketh, [saying], Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, [and] my locks with the drops of the night. 3 I have put off my coat; how shall I put it on? I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them? 4 My beloved put in his hand by the hole [of the door], and my bowels were moved for him. 5 I rose up to open to my beloved; and my hands dropped [with] myrrh, and my fingers [with] sweet smelling myrrh, upon the handles of the lock.
When is the bride ready? What is myrhh used for?
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Mark 4:29 As soon as the crop is ready, he sends for the sickle, because the harvest has come."
Jer 8:20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved. - which 5 virgins does this speak of?
What does the bride being ready do?
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
Which group of virgins are you?
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Post by mike on Nov 2, 2020 8:47:32 GMT -6
venge , I'd like more clarification on what you mean with this "but she must make herself ready in order to be a chaste virgin and acceptable." I agree with you, sort of. I do agree that those guests who accepted the free wedding attire (God's gift of salvation) are those who become the Bride of Christ. They are believers. The ones thrown out are those who have rejected Christ (both Jew and Gentile). But I still think it's just an illustration of the truth He was trying to convey. In the context of Matthew, He had just told the parable about the vineyard and how terrible the servants (prophets) were treated by the tenants (Jewish leaders). They would even reject the son of the master. The vineyard would be given away (others will accept the truth) and the tenants cast out. I see the wedding feast parable as explaining the same truth. The Jewish leaders reject Jesus, so the call will go out to others. You can't get into the Kingdom without Christ (Gal 3:27). It's an illustration of the Kingdom (Matt 22:2), not specifically the end wedding/feast. Natalie - When I read this I asked myself if I am making myself ready as a chaste virgin. Then I also asked is the church doing this collectively? Are we making ourselves ready? (I dont mean you specifically, but the 'church', do we see the church making herself without spot of blemish) |
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Post by Natalie on Nov 2, 2020 9:03:26 GMT -6
mike I posted this earlier in the thread: Ephesians 5:25-27 believers are clean and spotless because of what Jesus has done - past tense; it's done Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. The 'church' needs Jesus.
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Post by matthew2423 on Nov 2, 2020 9:20:22 GMT -6
hi matthew2423 , thanks for joining the conversation. Because I am sure that venge will ask - who do you see as the guests at the wedding? I have a similar perspective except that I put the Marriage Supper after the battle mentioned in 19:19-20 and the resurrection mentioned in Rev 20:4. Because I see the believing remnant of Israel, the martyrs, and those who did not take the mark as being the guests at the wedding supper. So, probably at Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles) and the start of the Millennial Kingdom.
(Because I am sure it will bring up the quesiton -- I don't see the actual feast described in Revelation, just the mention of the blessing for those who were invited)
Natalie, Honestly, I see the Old Testament saints as the guests of the wedding and the Marriage Supper. I also think that the Tribulation martyrs will also be guests at the wedding, but not all of the Tribulation saints will be guests since they will still be on earth, I see the Tribulation martyrs as guests because I assume that they will join the Marriage Supper as guests in Heaven since they have been killed by the Antichrist. That's what I'm thinking. |
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Post by mike on Nov 2, 2020 10:30:22 GMT -6
mike I posted this earlier in the thread: Ephesians 5:25-27 believers are clean and spotless because of what Jesus has done - past tense; it's done Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. The 'church' needs Jesus. I maybe see this a little differently Natalie. The verse quoted implies that there is necessity on the part of the church to continue to cleanse and wash. Not to be confused with works being added. Salvation is paid for in full through Jesus, we are clean but we can go out and become dirty again. We do that daily. From YLT: Eph 5:25 The husbands! love your own wives, as also the Christ did love the assembly, and did give himself for it, 26 that he might sanctify it, having cleansed [it] with the bathing of the water in the saying, 27 that he might present it to himself the assembly in glory, not having spot or wrinkle, or any of such things, but that it may be holy and unblemished; 28 so ought the husbands to love their own wives as their own bodies: he who is loving his own wife — himself he doth love 29 for no one ever his own flesh did hate, but doth nourish and cherish it, as also the Lord—the assembly,We dont love our wife one time and all is good, we continue to love them daily. The example of course being Christ dying for us, we are to strive for that in our love towards our wife. |
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Post by Natalie on Nov 2, 2020 11:04:03 GMT -6
mike , I think I see what you are saying. We make ourselves ready by continuing in faith, dying to self, walking in those things He has planned for us, etc. But yet it's Him working in us. Something like 1 John - 1 John 1:9 for example "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." or Romans 13:14 But then, what of those who don't make themselves ready? Those who are saved but aren't necessarily walking with Him? Or death bed conversions? regarding the verse in Revelation - I see it more of us having been purified at the Bema Seat judgment. Everything we did for Christ is the righteous deeds. All the sinful selfish things are burned away and we are purified. (1 Cor 3:11-13) So, I guess we make our selves ready by doing things for Him instead of self. So, even those who aren't consciously making themselves ready, or weren't given much time on earth after they put their faith in Him, will still be clothed in white. It's been a tough verse for me to think through. And I am still working on it.
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Post by mike on Nov 2, 2020 11:32:00 GMT -6
mike , I think I see what you are saying. We make ourselves ready by continuing in faith, dying to self, walking in those things He has planned for us, etc. But yet it's Him working in us. Something like 1 John - 1 John 1:9 for example "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." But then, what of those who don't make themselves ready? Those who are saved but aren't necessarily walking with Him? Or death bed conversions? regarding the verse in Revelation - I see it more of us having been purified at the Bema Seat judgment. Everything we did for Christ is the righteous deeds. All the sinful selfish things are burned away and we are purified. So, I guess we make our selves ready by doing things for Him instead of self. So, even those who aren't consciously making themselves ready, or weren't given much time on earth after they put their faith in Him, will still be clothed in white. It's been a tough verse for me to think through. And I am still working on it. Yes, we continue in the walk daily. What about them who do not make themselves ready? Did the disciples shake the dust off their feet and go to the next village? My view of scripture has to be dependent on my walk with the Lord. Those who may be saved and arent walking shouldnt determine how I view who will be dressed in white. That is WAY above our pay grades, only HE is able to judge the heart. |
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Post by Natalie on Nov 2, 2020 11:52:15 GMT -6
Yes, we continue in the walk daily. What about them who do not make themselves ready? Did the disciples shake the dust off their feet and go to the next village? My view of scripture has to be dependent on my walk with the Lord. Those who may be saved and arent walking shouldnt determine how I view who will be dressed in white. That is WAY above our pay grades, only HE is able to judge the heart. But would that mean that some of the Bride aren't dressed in white?
Even though the Bride is made up of individuals, I think that the Bride mentioned in Rev is the whole. She is in white = they are all in white.
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Post by mike on Nov 2, 2020 12:02:36 GMT -6
The bride in Rev is the whole. These 'church' are not church
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Post by Natalie on Nov 2, 2020 12:21:25 GMT -6
The bride in Rev is the whole. These 'church' are not church Ok, so I am confused now.
I thought we were talking about the passage in Rev 19:7-8
Let us rejoice and exult and give Him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His Bride has made herself ready: it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"-- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
At least this is the one I thought venge was meaning. Do I have the wrong passage?
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Post by Natalie on Nov 2, 2020 12:56:20 GMT -6
The Bride are true believers. Maybe it's again that separation of the true Church vs those who call themselves the church but aren't really.
The true church is the Bride. She has been washed and made clean by the blood of Jesus. That's all we need in order to be in the group called the Bride. This is the group in the passage posted above that has made herself ready. I see it as being made ready through the Bema Seat judgement. But I also understand the need to walk with Jesus daily. That's how we gain the righteous deeds that the fine linen is made of.
The other group will not make themselves ready because they don't see the need. They don't belong to the Bride. They don't truly follow the Bridegroom. They will be of the group that Jesus says, "I never knew you." They won't be wearing white, but they also aren't part of the group known as the Bride.
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Post by mike on Nov 2, 2020 12:59:44 GMT -6
EDIT - OK, I'm following. Think we are saying similar things
I think part of the problem is how you view when the wedding takes place. If there is an early rapture of the church...By church I mean believing body not those who will not make a rapture (sheet & goats, wheat & tares), then what happens to those saved during the Tribulation time? Are they out of 'luck' and miss the wedding because they did not believe?
The alternative is the wedding feast takes place at the end when Christ returns. When all invited has responded that they will attend and all attending are there. That is the prepared bride, clothed in linen
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Post by Natalie on Nov 2, 2020 13:12:23 GMT -6
Maybe. I see those saved during the 70th week as the guests to the wedding feast. There is the believing Jewish remnant, believers (probably most martyred), and then unbelievers who didn't take the mark. They aren't "out of luck"; they have different roles than the Bride. The believing Jewish remnant gain all the promises of God from the OT including the land of Israel with borders as promised and having God dwell among them. Believers will be serving in the Millennial Temple (I posted Scripture way back at the beginning of the thread for that one), and then anyone else will help populate the earth during the Millennial Reign.
(I was thinking/typing when you made your edit above ) |
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I do agree that those guests who accepted the free wedding attire (God's gift of salvation) are those who become the Bride of Christ. They are believers. The ones thrown out are those who have rejected Christ (both Jew and Gentile). 
