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Post by Joecool on Oct 29, 2020 13:47:18 GMT -6
One question that come up while I was lurking on the threads was, when does everyone put the timing of the the wedding and wedding feasts of The Lamb? I was always taught pre-trib way of thinking. If the wedding is during the 7 years after we are raptured 1st, wouldn't the tribulation saints (a lot of whom will be martyrs for Christ) miss out on it? So they are invited to the feasts but not the wedding itself?
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Post by Natalie on Oct 29, 2020 14:45:00 GMT -6
I found this study useful: (It's part a of a larger study) www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/roles-in-the-wedding-party.html#4.10.2Basically, the Church is the Bride. But, as with every wedding, there are those who enjoy the wedding/wedding feast who are not the Bride. Like John the baptizer who called himself a friend of the bridegroom. Those at the feast will be Jewish and Gentile believers that come to Christ during the 70th Week. I believe that OT saints may be part of the wedding party (friends of the groom), could be at the wedding, but will also be at the feast. While believers from the Church age are the Bride, I believe that there is a role in the Kingdom for the believers from the 70th week. (Rev 7:15 for example) |
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ksteven
Layman
Posts: 58
Favorite Verse: Philippians 4:6-7
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Post by ksteven on Oct 29, 2020 14:56:26 GMT -6
Joecool , One thing that we have to keep in mind too is that time is not the same here as in heaven. If pre-trib is the rapture timing, then 7 years here may be as a blink of an eye beyond. God is not limited in who He invites to the wedding/wedding feast based on earthly timelines. I have wondered if there is chronological existence in heaven, or if all things have happened, are happening, and will happen (all at once). I could be way off base though too. 
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Post by venge on Oct 29, 2020 19:43:17 GMT -6
One question that come up while I was lurking on the threads was, when does everyone put the timing of the the wedding and wedding feasts of The Lamb? I was always taught pre-trib way of thinking. If the wedding is during the 7 years after we are raptured 1st, wouldn't the tribulation saints (a lot of whom will be martyrs for Christ) miss out on it? So they are invited to the feasts but not the wedding itself? , There is only one place in Revelation that the wedding is mentioned. I will post Rev 19 from biblehub's KJV below The marriage begins when Christ begins to reign on earth. The bride is said to have just then, made herself ready..as she was in preparation during the last 2,000 years. She was as a harlot, but now as a chaste virgin. Now, she is "granted" to wear the white linen. The marriage supper follows. It is important to understand its placement in Revelation. According to Ch. 19, this is the events that take place: 1. Mystery Babylon is judged and destroyed (Rev 19:2-3) 2. Christ reigns on earth (Rev 19:6) 3. Christ and Bride marry (Rev 19:7-8) 4. Wedding Supper (Rev 19:9; 17-18) If you look at Rev 14, you'd see that BEFORE Babylon is destroyed (#1 above), we have the following events that precede it: 1. 144k From another standpoint, you need to see how each of these 5 things above fits into the Trumpets. Example: #2 above (Christ begins to reign on earth) is found in Rev 11:15-17 at the 7th Trumpet. That implies he marries his bride after the 7th trumpet is blown with the wedding feast following it. That would place Babylon being destroyed between the 1st Trumpet and 6th trumpet...but not before the 1st Trumpet because of the 144k that precede it. Also please recognize that Solomon is a shadow of Christ. In Song of Solomon 3:11 we see he is also crowned and marries on the same day as Christ in Rev 19 Paul says Christ appearing (when we are rewarded) is in his Kingdom in 2 Tim 4:1 That is at this time. |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 29, 2020 19:48:57 GMT -6
venge ,, I'm not following you here:
Where in Scripture does it ever describe the Bride of Christ as being as a harlot?
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
We are dressed in His righteousness from the moment we put are faith in Him and receive the Holy Spirit.
also adding Ephesians 5:25-27 believers are clean and spotless because of what Jesus has done - past tense; it's done
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
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Post by Natalie on Oct 29, 2020 20:05:20 GMT -6
Joecool , here is my understanding of Rev 19:7-8 (In purple) Let us rejoice and exult and give Him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, (It is a completed act; it already took place) and His Bride has made herself ready; (she is ready to be presented to the guests)
it was granted her to clothe herself
with fine linen, bright and pure" (The Bema Seat judgement has taken place) for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints (all that remains is those things that were purified at the Bema Seat, our deeds done for Christ is what remains)
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Post by Natalie on Oct 29, 2020 20:22:24 GMT -6
One question -- When did/does Jesus become King?
"My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But My kingdom is not from the world." Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world - to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to My voice." (John 18:36-37).
Can one have a kingdom if they are not a king?
And is He stating two purposes?
For this purpose I was born --> to be King, (The one promised in David's line)
and for this purpose I have come-->to bear witness to truth
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Post by mike on Oct 30, 2020 7:10:18 GMT -6
Hey Natalie just adding to the conversation as I read your response to venge this verse came to mind Since the OT books are given to us as examples (1 Cor 11:10) and all throughout the writings we see Israel as Gods chosen people, fornicating with other gods, idols, etc. (Ex 34:15, Jud 2:17...) Now we know that the Corinthian church was prone to carnal living as Paul admonishes them many times throughout both epistles to live in Christ. In the above text he is further pleading with them (continued from ch 10) to repent of their deeds. It is in their minds where the corruption is. They have been saved, identified with the Savior and King, but living as if He were not present with them. The church living in adultery is not anything new. Look at the apostate 'church' today. (Likely) All of the tv evangelists, many denominations with homosexual and now even transvestite pastors, supporting improper relations and marriage and the like. I'm not speaking for Venge but I see what he's saying in this light. EDIT - A (or perhaps The) problem is the fear of God is missing in the minds of the people. Do we treat God like ____________ (fill in the blank - for me it is too casual)? I am personally convicted of this recently. When I approach the throne have I considered how glorious and all powerful the One I am approaching really is? Sometimes sadly is I do not. I am trying to practice remembering Isa 6:2-6, especially v. 5, Dan 7:9-13, Rev 1:13-17, especially 17 and a few others. |
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Post by venge on Oct 30, 2020 7:15:47 GMT -6
venge ,, I'm not following you here:
Where in Scripture does it ever describe the Bride of Christ as being as a harlot?
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
We are dressed in His righteousness from the moment we put are faith in Him and receive the Holy Spirit.
also adding Ephesians 5:25-27 believers are clean and spotless because of what Jesus has done - past tense; it's done
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. , The bride as the Church is still told to "come out of her my people". At least part of the church, we don't know how many, but an assumption is much of it lives in Babylon and Babylon's idols affect the bride-to-be. The bride is also seen in the 7 letters to the 7 churches. And 6 of the 7 are given warnings to repent, make right, do this..before Christ comes or he will do X, Y and Z. The church, as a body of believers, has let in things contrary to God. She isnt ready yet and this is why she is not wearing the white linen. Does the entire body of believers harlot itself? No. Did all Israelites harlot themselves to God? No. We know Daniel, Shadrach, Abed-nego and Mischach did not. Yet Daniel cries to the Lord and says "we have sinned against you". He spoke for the body of Israel and by doing so, humbled himself before God unlike the Pharisee who was in the temple and prayed to God saying "thank you Lord for not making me like this tax collector". I went to see if any commentators offer insight to explain it how I see it: The Church itself is without the Jews; who are still blinded and following that stumbling block. This "readiness" of the bride should be the total Church. Believers in Christ and the Jew's removal of that blindness with their acceptance of him as the Savior. This is from an unfinished church that has idols, to a glorious bride who has one husband. This wife is not just us, in its perfectness, it should be the Original Branch and the wild olive branch. In Rev 21:9-21, the bride is described as 12 gates with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel. On the foundations was written the names of the 12 Apostles. The city is garnished with 12 stones that made up the garment the High priest would wear over his chest (the ephod); each stone written with the name of a tribe. It models Exodus 28 So, not to get off tract..I did alittle bit =P (scripture excites me) Let me go back to that verse you quoted: We are, in the church, to present out bodies a living sacrifice, holy (unblemished) to God. But does the body of believers in the entire world do this today? We have a church that God says is lukewarm. He would rather spit them (part of his bride) out of his mouth. They are blemished. They are with spot. He tells them to repent and change. So is the church a harlot, No. But she is as a harlot. The thing is, she still wants to wear precious jewels, gold, expensive clothing. She is still very much in this world and she needs to come out of this world. You also asked: When the nations of the world becomes Christ. Then he will sit on his glorious throne. I believe he is King, but be begins to reign over the earth when all nations are subject to him. It happens at his appearing (coming) and his Kingdom (millennial) This follows Matthew 13:41 where Christ reigning on earth removes all wickedness. I also wanted to comment on something else you posted: The marriage could not have already taken place. It just took place for the bride JUST made herself ready. The marriage was only possible then because she was not ready beforehand. Now that she is ready, the marriage of the lamb "has come". You put the bride (the complete Church) is to be presented to the guests. But we are the guests are we not? The collective makup of all believers is the body of Christ (the bride), but each individual is a guest. I am surprised you placed the bema seat at "she has made herself ready" and "granted with fine with fine linen.." I agree that is the bema which comes with the resurrection and rapture. It ties in with Rev 11:18 when Christ begins to reign and we are rewarded. As well as 2 Tim 4:1 |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 30, 2020 8:51:45 GMT -6
mike, I see what you are saying. I guess that in my mind I separate the apostate church from the true church. Yes, the apostate church could be seen as acting as a harlot - chasing everything but Christ. Very much like ancient Israel (except that faithful remnant) But the true church, yes, they may sin (and sin big sometimes), but they aren't acting as a harlot. And yes, we lapse at times and try to do life without Him, but if we are truly His we will not stay in that state. We will be convicted to return. He did that in my life. And yes, those true believers in apostate churches need to leave and follow the truth. I just don't see the harlotry imagery in the New Testament except for in Revelation. And that I see as the apostate church of the 70th week. Probably a one world religion of do whatever you want because all roads lead to God and love wins. But the true church is not in that.
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Post by Natalie on Oct 30, 2020 9:04:38 GMT -6
venge , I see things differently from you. (but you knew that  ) I see a different destiny for the nation of Israel than from the church, and truthfully, I don't feel like defending it today. (sorry, it's been a long week) It's one of the reasons why I don't see the church present during the 70th week. I don't see us as the wedding guests. How can we be guests and the Bride? Maybe I can put together how I see it sometime in the future. (or you can read through this 6 part study, it's not real long)
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Post by mike on Oct 30, 2020 9:16:12 GMT -6
mike , I see what you are saying. I guess that in my mind I separate the apostate church from the true church. Yes, the apostate church could be seen as acting as a harlot - chasing everything but Christ. Very much like ancient Israel (except that faithful remnant) But the true church, yes, they may sin (and sin big sometimes), but they aren't acting as a harlot. And yes, we lapse at times and try to do life without Him, but if we are truly His we will not stay in that state. We will be convicted to return. He did that in my life. And yes, those true believers in apostate churches need to leave and follow the truth. I just don't see the harlotry imagery in the New Testament except for in Revelation. And that I see as the apostate church of the 70th week. Probably a one world religion of do whatever you want because all roads lead to God and love wins. But the true church is not in that. Yeah - Im starting to think that way more and more. There is the faithful/true believing church and what I will refer to as the unrepentant 'church'. I dont want to convolute this thread with works but it is evident that the true will show their works, and the unrepentant will not. How the view differs in response to the OP (JoeCool) is how one views the rapture timing. |
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Post by venge on Oct 30, 2020 13:44:43 GMT -6
venge , I see things differently from you. (but you knew that ) I see a different destiny for the nation of Israel than from the church, and truthfully, I don't feel like defending it today. (sorry, it's been a long week) It's one of the reasons why I don't see the church present during the 70th week. I don't see us as the wedding guests. How can we be guests and the Bride? Maybe I can put together how I see it sometime in the future. (or you can read through this 6 part study, it's not real long) Perhaps I can explain it another way. Matthew 22:10 says: The servants of God preach his good news and see who accepts it. Some are good and some are like the tax collector (this is also the wheat and the tares). Men evangelize to others in order to spread his word. To the Jew first, then to the Greek and everyone else. God asks us to put on clean garments: By inviting anyone who would listen, those that sought Christ through faith and followed him would be guests. Before you had faith..who were you? Someone came to you and led you with knowledge of the Lord. You become a guest once you believed- with that knowledge. You also became part of the body of Christ encompassing many guests making up the bride. The bride is not just you or me. It is all his Holy people who obey his laws. If you lived in New Jerusalem, you'd follow all of its laws under God. That is what it is to be the bride. Were the 10 virgins (parable of the 10 virgins) the church or guests? If its the church, she was split? yet if the guests...5 were accepted wearing wedding garments and those 5 encompass others who make up the church. |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 30, 2020 14:49:57 GMT -6
The parable in Matthew is just that - a parable. It teaches that God sent His invitation to Israel. They refused (rejected their Messiah). Their city is even destroyed (which came to pass). So, then the invitation went to everyone else (Gentile nations). The wedding garment is the righteousness of Christ; it's all we need. If you don't have that, then you don't get into His Kingdom (you are cast out where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth). It's a parable to share truth, not necessarily to explain the Bride of Christ and the wedding feast. The ten virgins; (From the study I linked) www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/roles-in-the-wedding-party.html#4.10.2 For further clarity: Here is the footnote for #3
Again a parable to teach truth. Jesus is warning those who are listening (Jews) to be ready for His return. When He returns, there will be a wedding feast. The virgins are guests separate from the Bride. They are invited to the feast that follows the wedding. They are those that come to faith after the rapture of the church - which I would think would have a large amount of Jewish believers since that's one of the purposes of the 70th week.
Our church is having a missionary conference this weekend starting tonight. Any further discussion on this I will probably put off until Sunday evening at the earliest. If you really want to know how I see it, then go through the link I posted while you wait. |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 30, 2020 21:50:06 GMT -6
One question that come up while I was lurking on the threads was, when does everyone put the timing of the the wedding and wedding feasts of The Lamb? I was always taught pre-trib way of thinking. If the wedding is during the 7 years after we are raptured 1st, wouldn't the tribulation saints (a lot of whom will be martyrs for Christ) miss out on it? So they are invited to the feasts but not the wedding itself? Hey, Joecool , So, everyone has their own take - or 2 cents to put it, so here's my take. I'm a bit of a traditional Pre-tribulation guy, with a bit of a twist - and you can find the idea in multiple other posts on different threads, - my view, shared by others. I'm trying to grow in the area of respecting others' views, whether they are similar or totally different from mine. So it means that some like grits with jam, and some don't like grits at all, but I still want to be able to explain my position. I like grits with lots of butter and cheese. Since the rapture is itself, the wedding ceremony, [not the marriage feast] - the tribulation saints are not part of that, but there is a special reward for these saints who are Martyred. The biggest difference where i am not in the majority comes to the rapture and the feast days - the notion that the Feast Days [7 feasts of the Lord] are God's Divine or Prophetic calendar, and all these feasts are fulfilled in Christ, and they all point to Christ. The last 3 which have not yet been fulfilled - are inseparably linked to all the event of the Second Advent [ Rapture aka Day of Christ, events of 70th week of Daniel, Anti-christ, 3rd Temple, Seals, and 2 witnesses, and the subsequent 2nd Coming aka Day of the Lord - when He comes with his bride - the church, and sets his feet on the Mt of Olives. The short version is this- - The rapture itself [Harpazo] (which literally means to be snatched up, or caught up quickly, by force) is a wedding.
- The parable of the wedding - or also known as the parable of the 10 bridesmaids is in fact a rapture picture. Hmmmm. The Groom comes with a shout.
The 5 wise bridesmaids knew the hour and were prepared and went in to the wedding. Christ himself said that the other 5 were foolish because they did not know the hour. So here we see Christ saying the same as the apostle Paul - that it's not a random, any-day, surprise event. No imminent rapture in the sense of 'could be tomorrow, could be July 4th.' The Feasts are a shadow of things to come, and the word for feasts in Hebrew is Moadim, which means " appointed time" - but the interesting thing is that this word is also translated as "rehearsal" as in wedding rehearsal. It's a practice for the real event, and it looks exactly like the real thing.  - Christ's first miracle was a wedding. Hmm. Coincidence? Not a chance.
- Christ's words "I go to prepare a place for you" was an idiom from a Hebrew wedding, and all the disciples instantly understood it. Just as in English someone might say, "Dearly Beloved, we are gathered together."
- Christ told his disciples about his return and amazingly, he used another idiom from a Hebrew wedding. "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord", - this statement is said at a Hebrew wedding referring to the Groom. Another incredible coincidence where Christ explicitly links a wedding, with the rapture - 'the next time we see Christ".
- In a Hebrew wedding, the bride is literally lifted up and carried away - on a litter, or a chair carried by the groomsmen, and she is hidden away . . . wait for it, . . . in the chamber, for 7 days, where the marriage is consummated, and THEN, they both return for the marriage supper of the Lamb.
- Interestingly- the chapter heading in several translations in Rev 19:6 is "The Marriage Supper of the Lamb."
- We also have this picture of the Hebrew marriage and the picture of the rapture, and the bride being hidden away in the chamber in Isaiah 26 " Until the indignation/ fury has passed." Just wow. !!
- Though millennia, the eyes of the Jewish people are blinded, but this blindness is only for a time. God made an everlasting covenant with his people Israel, and the church did not replace Israel. The promise of land and becoming a nation in one day does not apply to the church. God has ordained that his second Advent - [again, - the rapture, time of Jacob's trouble, AC, hailstones, scorpions, asteroids, and 2nd coming] is foreshadowed even in Jewish culture and the Feast of Trumpets has many themes, but among the most well-known is the "wedding of the messiah". hmmmm.
- God orchestrated that it fits perfectly with the picture of the wedding, [rapture picture] of the Groom coming with a shout [the word is teruah, and literally means shouting, or blasting of a shofar.]
- If we have a God who gives us all these pictures and foreshadows and scripture which confirms it, and then it also just happens to be that he tells us in scripture that the rapture is a wedding, why should anyone be surprised, or dismiss the fact that the Hebrew wedding is a picture of the rapture and time of Jacob's trouble, and the bride is lifted up, 'caught up quickly' to the chamber for 7 years. No passage in scripture ever links or connects Day of Christ with terror, calamity, sun turning to darkness or any judgement - because it's a celebration. The "Day of the Lord", in contrast, is always linked with terror, calamity and judgment.
- In the Hebrew wedding, the bride literally has a special ritual bath before the wedding, and she is washed. This special ceremonial bath is 'Mikvah.' The significance of the bride being washed/ pure is huge. It makes no sense at all, that a groom would say to his pure, bride dressed in white, "I love you, now I'm going to beat you for 7 years. " Or "I love you, so now, you have to be purified through tribulation for 3 years." She- the bride is already made pure by Christ's blood.
- Joseph is a type of the bride of Christ, and we see again - Joseph is lifted up, and the sons of Jacob [Israel] are in the tribulation/ famine for 7 years, but Joseph is spared.
- As J D Farag says so brilliantly, "The purpose of the Tribulation is the Salvation of the Jewish Nation." It's not about US.
Hope it makes sense.
Disciple4life
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) I see a different destiny for the nation of Israel than from the church, and truthfully, I don't feel like defending it today. (sorry, it's been a long week) It's one of the reasons why I don't see the church present during the 70th week. I don't see us as the wedding guests. How can we be guests and the Bride? 
