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Post by Joecool on Sept 9, 2020 10:35:31 GMT -6
I have always been taught once you were saved you will always be saved as per
Romans 8:31-39
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.,
but what about those who use the following 2 verses among others to say we can lose our salvation
Hebrews 6:4-6
“It is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit (believers) and have tasted of the good word of God and powers of the age to come, if they fall away (complete), to renew then again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
Not only does this verse show that you can lose your salvation, it shows that if you do, you can never get it back again!
Revelation 3:5
“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.” (This seems to imply that you can have your name removed.)
Guess I must study the scriptures in prayer some more. Anybody want to put their 2 cents on this? ( or 1 cent since their is a coin shortage)
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2020 10:50:24 GMT -6
Hi Joecool,
I would recommend the book of John Lennox "Determined to believe?" An awesome goodread :-)
This helped me a huge lot to set these things straight.
Blessings, reep
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Post by mike on Sept 9, 2020 11:44:01 GMT -6
Joecool AHHH! the age old question to you. Were you ever really saved? Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.Remember audience matters. Who was the epistle written to? Take the entire epistle in context, not just a few verses. Also review Ellicotts commentary hereCan we fall away? What do we see in the world right now? Are there many claiming to be the church, yet by their deeds we can see that they are not? Was there an apostle who was filled by Satan? Look at the underlying themes throughout scripture. The faithful, the remnant, the warnings to the churches in Revelation EDIT-also think on those in Word Faith, Prosperity, sects of Lutheran, Catholicism and the like - are they saved? were they ever? Matt 7:22-23
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Post by mike on Sept 9, 2020 12:40:48 GMT -6
Let me just add one more thought to this. We are all sinners saved by Grace through Faith (Eph 2:8). We still sin every single day, every one of us do! BUT do we take pleasure in our sin? Do we intentionally rebel against Gods laws? Do we acknowledge that our rebellion separates us from Him?
I can claim I'm saved all day long but IF I am "loud & proud" about my sin, am I really walking in harmony with Him? (<--insert any rebellious sinful, willful act in there)
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ksteven
Layman
Posts: 58
Favorite Verse: Philippians 4:6-7
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Post by ksteven on Sept 10, 2020 9:18:50 GMT -6
Rev. 13:7-8
Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. I usually look to this for such a question. We are written into the Lambs Book of Life from before the foundation of the world. Can you go back to before the foundation and change what was written? Can you take the hand of God and remove your own name? I follow the thought of "were you ever saved to begin with." If the Spirit does a work within you, do you have the power to expel the Holy Spirit from you? Only God can do any of those things.
Just my thought Joecool ,
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Post by Gary on Sept 10, 2020 11:09:03 GMT -6
Very important question. To me the fruits question is always secondary to belief. We have to start with the solid foundation, which is Christ, upon which, even if we build nothing, we survive (Rm. 4:5; 1 Cor. 3:11-15). When you believe right you act right. And holiness never, ever comes out of fear and law as the pagan religions, Judaism, and Islam teach, but out of grace (Rm. 7:5-8; Tit. 2:11-12). We act righteous because we are righteous by Christ's imputed righteousness. Nothing condemns us and nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. I can concur with Paul that before I knew grace I lived 100x worse—even when I was stringently trying to obey the Ten Commandments, Sermon on the Mount, etc. It was always a mountain I could never climb no matter how hard I tried. No one can do it. And then when you hear and believe the gospel, you're set free. Genuine righteousness flows out of the knowledge that we are saved no matter what—through faith. We are children of God. Revelation 3:5 isn't a threat, it's a promise. It isn't "if you don't do this then you'll be blotted out." Rather, it's "if you overcome you'll never be blotted out." John repeatedly defines overcoming ( nikao) as having faith in Christ (see here and here). I haven't addressed Hebrews 6 directly, but I have written extensively about Hebrews. The issue addressed in the book is Israel's ( the Hebrews) refusal to accept the once-for-all-sacrifice of Christ. The author compares their present unbelief to the sin that caused the Israelites to be cut off in the wilderness. The sin of Hebrews 10:26, for instance, is unbelief, and the whole chapter attests to that. Also, while eternal security is of course not believed by everyone (especially Catholic and Orthodox), it is a fundamental belief in historic Protestantism and in dispensational evangelicalism. I believe it is synonymous with the gospel—either Christ died for all of our sins or none of them. There are many, many Scriptures on eternal security (e.g., John 5:24, 6:37-39, 10:28-29, 17:9-12, Romans 4:5, 6:23, 8:38-39, Ephesians 1:13, 4:30, Philippians 1:6, Hebrews 7:25, 10:14, 1 Peter 1:4-5). Blessings. |
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Post by Joecool on Sept 11, 2020 10:26:20 GMT -6
Thank you all. It is comforting to know that even though I don't always stick with Him; He will always stay with me.
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Post by boraddict on Sept 11, 2020 22:14:55 GMT -6
Joecool, how many times have I turned away only to find there is nowhere else to go? Just pick a number. Yet, each time when I return I am comforted in Christ's loving arms. The goal is to stop leaving. That is, there is no where else for an individual to go once you know salvation; for without Christ there is only loneliness. He will always comes for his lost sheep and pulls them back to him. There is only one solution for those having salvation; stop leaving. Just repent and forgive self as Christ has already forgiven; and stop leaving. Just work through sin with Christ not without. We all sin but the wise will stay with Christ and repent. Satan will try to convince otherwise that the individual is not good enough for Christ; but he always beckons the spirit of the forgiven to come back. He never stops loving his sheep.
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Post by Joecool on Sept 15, 2020 10:03:15 GMT -6
Joecool , how many times have I turned away only to find there is nowhere else to go? Just pick a number. Yet, each time when I return I am comforted in Christ's loving arms. The goal is to stop leaving. That is, there is no where else for an individual to go once you know salvation; for without Christ there is only loneliness. He will always comes for his lost sheep and pulls them back to him. There is only one solution for those having salvation; stop leaving. Just repent and forgive self as Christ has already forgiven; and stop leaving. Just work through sin with Christ not without. We all sin but the wise will stay with Christ and repent. Satan will try to convince otherwise that the individual is not good enough for Christ; but he always beckons the spirit of the forgiven to come back. He never stops loving his sheep. I used to get lonely all the time, but here recently I am just grateful for the moments of quiet solitude when I can worship God in peace. I am as hard-headed as they come, so most of the time God has to teach me the lesson several (dozen) times before I get it. As a preacher once said to me sometimes God has to knock one on their back to get them to look up. Part of me wishes God would knock me on my back everyday so I would remember to always be looking up. Also when that tricky evil serpent tries to remind us we are not worthy of praying or being with Christ, we gotta remind the serpent that we have never been worthy and it is only by God's grace that we can have a loving relationship with our Creator in the 1st place. He never stops loving his sheep. God doesn't give up and He doesn't lose, which means He won't lose one of His own. Without Christ i have nothing and i am nothing. God has been impressing upon me recently that i can't work through sin on my own, I must trust God, even in the storms. Jesus couldn't perform a miracle and calm the storms if they didn't go into the midst of the storms. |
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Post by mike on Sept 15, 2020 12:56:48 GMT -6
Joecool - I was reading John 3 this morning and thought of you as my last reply said: to me this reinforced most famous passage of 3:16 continues and is most often overlooked. We have to ask ourselves do we hate the light and love darkness? Do we continue in evil work?
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Beloved
New Member
Waiting for our Blessed Hope
Posts: 43 
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Post by Beloved on Sept 16, 2020 9:46:12 GMT -6
Joecool First off, I'd like to point out the following verse: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 9:9-10) Now, if one could lose their salvation, then there would be people who had confessed with their mouth and believed in their heart, yet they shall not be saved. This means God lied, which is impossible. Therefore, on the basis of the character of God, loss of salvation is untenable. What of those verse you have mentioned? Hebrews does not talk about saved people losing their salvation; rather, it talks of those who draw near to being saved, and then fall back. The author of Hebrews says, "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Hebrews 10:38-39). Now, obviously, the ones who draw back are an entirely different group of people than the ones who do not; one cannot draw back and not draw back simultaneously! But all that believe unto the saving of the soul do not draw back to destruction. If one believes, they are saved, and do not draw back to destruction, as the text clearly states. Rather, those who draw near to being saved, yet reject it; these are the ones who draw back to destruction. How do we know this? The very text you state! "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." -Hebrews 6:4-6 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." -1 John 2:19 John clearly states that those who apostatize are not of the brethren; if they were of the brethren, they would have continued in the faith! The passage from Hebrews is more tricky, but still quite understandable. Recall the context of the book; this is to Jewish Christians. If one, after acquaintance with the faith, gave it up to go back to the Old Covenant, the price of readmission would be to call Christ an impostor, essentially crucifying him again to themselves and putting him to open shame. This passage describes people, who, after being intimately acquainted with the faith, turn away from it and reject Christ utterly. Indeed, on the basis of 1 John 2:19, this is the only possible interpretation. The words of F. B. Hole are illuminating here: "Can it be possible to be a partaker of the Holy Ghost" without being born again? The answer to that question is, that it is quite possible. Only a true believer can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but all within the circle of Christian profession, whether truly converted or not, partake or share in the benefits of the presence of the Spirit. A man may be enlightened without being saved. He may taste the heavenly gift without receiving it. He may taste the good word of God without digesting it in his inward parts. He may share in "the powers of the world to come." (i.e. miraculous powers) without experiencing the real power of the world to come. The terrible case of Judas Iscariot furnishes us with an illustration of this very thing. He walked for over three years in the company of the Son of God. What floods of light fell upon his path! What tastes he had of the heavenly gift and of the good Word of God! It could not be said of course that he was a partaker of the Holy Ghost, but he was a partaker of the benefits of the presence of Christ upon earth; and he shared, in common with the other apostles, in those miraculous powers which are here called "the powers of the world to come." He was one of the twelve to whom the Lord gave power over unclean spirits, and of whom it is said, "They cast out many devils and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them." (Mark 6:13). Yet the miracle-working Judas was all the while a "son of perdition" and not a saved man at all. He fell away and it proved impossible to renew him unto repentance." This passage calls on all Christians to examine if they are truly part of the faith, but if they are, they will continue and be saved. As for Revelation 3:5, this is actually a great passage confirming the truth of eternal salvation! The passage says that "he who overcomes" will not have his name blotted out of the Book of Life. Well, who is he that overcomes? "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 John 5:5). So, all who believe Jesus is the Son of God (so all that are saved) will never have their name blotted out of the book. If you have salvation, it shall not be lost. A final word: good works are a sign one is saved, not the basis of salvation. By lack thereof a true believer will not lose salvation, but true salvation will eventually bear the fruit of good works. Salvation begets good works, but good works do not beget salvation.
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Beloved
New Member
Waiting for our Blessed Hope
Posts: 43
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Post by Beloved on Sept 16, 2020 9:55:51 GMT -6
After reading the rest of the thread, I see the question has already been answered thoroughly. Oh well! Now you've my two/one cent(s) on the matter  . |
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Post by Joecool on Sept 16, 2020 11:41:50 GMT -6
Joecool - I was reading John 3 this morning and thought of you as my last reply said: to me this reinforced most famous passage of 3:16 continues and is most often overlooked. We have to ask ourselves do we hate the light and love darkness? Do we continue in evil work? What if we have been walking in darkness for so long that our mind has become warped by it; even craving it similar to a drug addict needing a fix? I been feeling like Paul in Romans 7:15 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. I can't for the day when we meet Jesus and all doubt is removed and our sinful flesh is glorified. |
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Post by mike on Sept 16, 2020 12:04:41 GMT -6
Joecool - You even asking shows me that you do not desire to continue to commit sin, willfully. Our minds require bathing in His word every day. We need to commune with Him every day in prayer. fellowship whether here, at a church meeting, with neighbors, or on the phone to build up our faith. As I'm typing this I know it sounds cliche, but that is not the intent. Its something I can attest that I have lived out and if it works for me, it works for all as He does not respect one person over another. Regarding what Paul said - I had this explained to me a long time ago as an analogy. Look at birds or airplanes. The law of gravity (sin) does not cease to exist when they take flight. Rather the law of 'lift' (spirit of grace) is greater than gravity, but gravity is still present. It does not disappear completely, but is still pulling on the object in flight. I think that continuing to read from Romans 7 into 8 helps shine light on this even greater brother. We see Gods grace s greater in 8
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 17, 2020 11:54:59 GMT -6
Joecool AHHH! the age old question to you. Were you ever really saved? Also review Ellicotts commentary hereCan we fall away? What do we see in the world right now? Are there many claiming to be the church, yet by their deeds we can see that they are not? Was there an apostle who was filled by Satan? Look at the underlying themes throughout scripture. The faithful, the remnant, the warnings to the churches in Revelation EDIT-also think on those in Word Faith, Prosperity, sects of Lutheran, Catholicism and the like - are they saved? were they ever? Matt 7:22-23 Hello guys, gals, I won't add any other comments on this thread - but just wanted to put this out, and hope it will help in the discussion. I'm not under any illusion that anyone's mind will be changed, or that we will solve a debate that has been going for thousands of years, but I have lived in 12 states and 3 countries and been a part of churches on all points of the spectrum and these are a few things that have been constant across all denominational lines, churches and ministries, as well as discussions between 2 or 3 people. The "Gap" or disconnect is growing wider, and this is because the terms of the discussion are misleading/ ambiguous. I don't say this as a criticism to Joecool, or anyone, but the biggest barrier to fruitful discussion lies in terms that unclear and laden with semantic landmines and as long as people are asking unclear/ misleading/ wrong questions, there will never be a solution. It's a "Garden Path question". Like these examples, "So Tom, have you stopped beating your wife?" Yes or No,?? "Should Transgender/3rd gender parents be allowed to adopt" Yes or No? "Should countries be fined for causing the Ice Caps to melt.? Yes or no? "Should the proven science of macro-evolution be taught in public schools? "Can we solve the issue of misplacing one's salvation in one thread?" Yes or no? Built into each of these questions, is a false assumption, or a partial truth, which is really another issue, entirely. By even addressing the question at all - in it's misleading form - mean's that we are reinforcing these faulty and false narratives. [Sometimes it's intentional, sometimes it's not] 1. That Tom really is beating his wife, or was. If he answers either way, he's admitting he was or still is, beating his wife. 2. If we say a 3rd gender person should or should not be allowed to adopt, we are implicitly reinforcing the narrative that a 3rd gender is consistent with scripture.  3. If we say that a country should not be fined [or should, - doesn't matter,] we give credence to the assumption that man is directly responsible for the 'global warming' agenda. 4. When we say Yes, or No, - to the question of if we can "lose/misplace" one's salvation, we are widening the gap of confusion/ controversy, because it's following a garden path question that is at best poorly worded, and at worse - intentionally misleading, and not scriptural. We lose our keys, we lose our sunglasses, we lose the TV remote, at least 3x a week, only to "re-find" it in the couch cushions, or under the couch, or on the kitchen counter, We lose our shoes in one room, only to find them on the back porch or in the bathroom, but do you " lose" your house?? No. The thought is absurd, but no one would say you can't have your house foreclosed or repossessed. Hmmm. No one "misplaces" their marriage, but we all know plenty of people who have been divorced in our churches or small groups. It's all over in my family and my Christian friends. The point here is that we use a word that has 50 shades of meaning, used mostly in the context of "randomly and temporarily forgetting where we put something, but usually finding it again".
It's the very same reason why most mature Christians recognize the bogus word game of " Pro-choice" for what it is. Logical people agree that it sounds nice to affirm a woman's right to make a choice, but the problem comes because when we use unclear terms, go down that path- no one is talking about the choice of the baby. I can /and do respect peoples' different opinion on race, but I can also ask for clarity in a dialogue. " Jim, you said Appalachians, but do you mean all the immigrants in this region, or are you specifically talking about Americans who have Irish roots who settled in East Tennessee?" [We all have witnessed how often people use the the words Second coming, but the context indicates they are referring to the rapture.] Instead of unclear terms that are not in scripture, and cluttered with cultural meaning, we need to use accurate terms and ask better questions. That's the reason I quoted from Cappuccino Mike, my brother. It's simply that in this quote, we are no longer chasing hobbits and being divided by word-games, but he's engaging the real question. "Can we Fall Away?" What does it mean to depart from the faith and become worse than an unbeliever. ?? It doesn't guarantee that we will change anyone's mind by asking better questions, but at least we are using terms that are scriptural. - What does it mean to "Fall from Grace", which Paul said that some in the church in Galatia did?
- What does it mean - when Christ said that "every branch in me, that does not bear fruit would be cut off and cast into the fire and burned."
- What are the implications of Paul's warnings "that false teachers overthrow the faith of others" or that he said that after preaching to others, he could "become disqualified"? Adokimos. same word translated as "rejected" and "reprobate" and castaway.
- What does it mean to us, that Christ said to the lukewarm church that he would 'vomit them out of his mouth" and remove his lampstand, which is a picture of his presence.
- What does it mean to those who claim to be followers of Christ, that Christ said of the prodigal that while he was wallowing in sin, and eating with pigs, spending his fathers inheritance, that he was "Dead and lost" and then "alive again" after he repented?
- What is the application for us, that Christ said that Judas was a chosen apostle and fell from his position. ?
That's my 2 cents --
Love you all, carry on.
Disciple4life.
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