andrew
Layman
Still here...till the end.
Posts: 93 
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Post by andrew on Nov 19, 2020 18:39:08 GMT -6
Are we powerful enough to affect our salvation?
Are we powerful enough to cause our salvation?
Are we powerful enough to destroy our salvation?
If one of them is no, how can the others be yes; do we seek to make our will more than His?
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Post by socalexile on Nov 20, 2020 7:38:07 GMT -6
I look at OSAS from the perspective of the Jewish Wedding analogy: www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/the-jewish-wedding-analogy.html If you're unfamiliar with this, watch this starting at about 15:28: Now in terms of salvation, Jesus is the Bridegroom and we are the Bride. He has paid the bride price to the Father who has judged Him able to fulfill His requirements for a husband. As the Bride, we do not pledge anything other than our trust that the Bridegroom has fulfilled the Father's requirements. The covenant is entirely between Jesus and the Father. Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, after you believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. So do you trust that Jesus has fulfilled the Father's requirements and can redeem you? The Law proved that we cannot redeem ourselves. Now if you think you can lose redemption, isn't that saying that the Bridegroom failed His pledge? Furthermore, if you are seeking to be saved isn't that an admission that you are not yet saved? |
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Post by Gary on Nov 20, 2020 9:19:43 GMT -6
To me this is one of those chief topics that the enemy uses to create confusion, sow discord, and cause warring camps to form. It's really the story of Church division from the beginning to the end: different camps cling to a few pet verses at the expense of a multitude of others. That's why I think Christianity has been served well by systematizing core doctrines, but has been greatly harmed by using labels. Labels so often put God in a box.
Eternal security? Of course. There are many clear Scriptures on this. The perseverance of the saints even became something of a core Protestant doctrine and is often the telltale sign a church is preaching the actual gospel of substitutionary atonement and imputed righteousness.
Apostasy? Of course. Again, there are many Scriptures.
But these don't stand apart, they fit together. Both are true.
Paul makes clear that there are Christians who live in carnality, yet will be saved. But that isn't apostasy. Apostasy is rejecting the faith once delivered. Paul says they were never of us. They would have remained if they were. Why? Again, because of eternal security.
This goes straight to the great point raised by James: proclamation of faith isn't faith. FAITH is FAITH. We see millions of Christians apostatizing throughout history, but this has no bearing on the promises of God and His faithfulness to save each and every believer who has been sealed with the Spirit. It's not cliché to say those apostatizing were never saved to begin with. They truly weren't. They would have remained if they were. But those who apostatize were merely empty proclaimers. Their profession was hollow because their faith wasn't in Christ, for if it had been in Christ they would have been indwelt with the Spirit.
This is why I emphasize digging deeper into what someone truly believes, because belief drives action. If someone is truly persuaded that Jesus will hold them to the bitter end and has forgiven all their trespasses, they will perform more godly works than can be imagined. If they don't believe this, they will have a questioning, doubting, and troubled spirit that sucks life out of those around them and causes many to stumble in the faith.
There are many Christians who truly believe we are justified by works.
There are many who truly believe Jesus is just one of many paths to God.
There are many who believe in the resurrection, but disregard our genuine need for atonement.
All of these are gospel-deniers.
Just my 2 cents.
Blessings!
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Post by socalexile on Nov 20, 2020 14:07:53 GMT -6
One thing though, there is confusion about what is eternal security. People often confuse OSAS with "Perseverance of the Saints", the Calvinist idea that a truly saved believer will ALWAYS be in the faith - and if they aren't, then they were never saved in the first place. This isn't OSAS, and I would argue that it isn't eternal security either, since it makes salvation dependent on our ability to attain a goal: to be in the faith until death. Technically, that's in the definition of the word that the Apostles wrote down for "works" (ergon). In practice, PotS is no different than the idea that someone can lose their salvation. The difference is what people say if they judge that to have happened. Actual eternal security is eternal, from the moment of faith; not temporary pending your performance of faith. In other words, salvation isn't a loan that you have to repay with a lifetime of faith. BTW Gary, it wasn't Paul that said that, and it was in reference to who was teaching good doctrine, not who was saved and who wasn't. ETA: Four Perversions of Grace |
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Post by socalexile on Nov 20, 2020 15:06:11 GMT -6
but what about those who use the following 2 verses among others to say we can lose our salvation Hebrews 6:4-6 “It is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit (believers) and have tasted of the good word of God and powers of the age to come, if they fall away (complete), to renew then again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.” Not only does this verse show that you can lose your salvation, it shows that if you do, you can never get it back again! Revelation 3:5 “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.” (This seems to imply that you can have your name removed.) Guess I must study the scriptures in prayer some more. Anybody want to put their 2 cents on this? ( or 1 cent since their is a coin shortage) Hebrews 6:4-6 is really an OSAS verse. Christ is the Messiah who saved us - if you could fall away and have to be saved again, then Christ isn't the Messiah. Since Christ is the Messiah, it's impossible. As for overcomers in Revelation 3:5: 1 John 5:4 NKJV — For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. |
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Post by fitz on Nov 21, 2020 6:00:51 GMT -6
Keep reading:
Heb 6:16-20
16 Now when people take an oath, they call on someone greater than themselves to hold them to it. And without any question that oath is binding. 17 God also bound himself with an oath, so that those who received the promise could be perfectly sure that he would never change his mind. 18 So God has given both his promise and his oath. These two things are unchangeable because it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore, we who have fled to him for refuge can have great confidence as we hold to the hope that lies before us. 19 This hope is a strong and trustworthy anchor for our souls. It leads us through the curtain into God’s inner sanctuary. 20 Jesus has already gone in there for us. He has become our eternal High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Saved and filled with the Holy Spirit at 12, I totally fell into the world when I left home...and lived that way...Godless, for 15 years. But I'll tell ya, not once in those 15 years did I ever stop believing that Jesus is God and Savior. In those days when one of my heathen friends would blaspheme the name of God, or Jesus, in any way, I didn't have the guts to defend Him and the Spirit within me was greatly grieved...which also grieved me. But of course, I kept that hidden deep. No one knew.
And in my darkest days, I would cry out to Him, and He would answer me. But I would quickly forget it and continued to mostly ignore Him and live like a pig. The prodigal son, for sure.
But He would never let me forget who I belonged to. I was bought with a price. Jesus doesn't fail. I was chosen, given to Christ by the father. Now since He has saved me, no one, not even myself, can snatch me out of His hand. And so throughout those years the Spirit would ping me...never letting me forget, calling me to remember who I am, who I belong to, calling me to return to the Father's house. But some of us have to learn the hard way, and in a moment of time, when I was 32, God broke me. At the point of losing everything I had in the world, wife, kids, house, car, everything, I finally changed my mind. I knew full well that the only way was His way. And I was welcomed home with open arms. And God radically, almost instantly transformed our lives. Everything changed when I and my household came into agreement with Him.
He's finishing what He started, and is faithful to do so.
Once born, no one can be unborn.
God is not weak. Jesus is not a failure.
We can not save ourselves, nor effect His salvation.
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Post by Gary on Nov 21, 2020 7:40:50 GMT -6
socalexile and fitz, you both raise great points and I pretty much agree. I definitely agree with OSAS. But I also agree with perseverance of the saints to some extent since it's seen as eternal security + saints won't ultimately apostatize. You'd probably define me best as sovereign grace, but I can still fellowship with many of those who preach TULIP because even though in practicality they may be backloading works into the equation, they initially preach the gospel correctly, teach eternal security, teach imputed righteousness, etc. I think the *way* in which they teach eternal security can result in lack of assurance, doubt, and unproductivity—granted. fitz you said it well: Your testimony is a good example. Many Christians fall into carnality or go through a pretty dark season, but something holds their faith, even if just in an extremely primordial, seed-like form. I've been through times like that for sure. I've also had times of great doubt, questioning God, etc. But I could never ultimately give up THE faith because the Holy Spirit was on the inside and He doesn't come out. On the other hand, as I mentioned in the earlier post, there are many with hollow proclamations of faith. They may appear to apostatize and even join another religion even though they were baptized as a child, went through Confirmation, said a sinner's prayer, etc, but of course water baptism, Confirmation, or saying words has no bearing on salvation. Salvation comes through genuine God-wrought faith in Christ's atoning death and His resurrection. If the faith element is missing or they have faith in something other than what Christ accomplished, then the person was never saved to begin with even though they may have been self-deceived into thinking they were. Churches are filled with these, hence the seven letters. AMEN x10,000
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Post by socalexile on Nov 21, 2020 9:27:42 GMT -6
Problem is, we don't know what is going on inside people, we can only judge from the outside. Ultimately though, I think it is God who saves, and we can't decide for Him who He can save. Also, God isn't a mathematical formula or a vending machine that we can decide whether someone has put in the proper input in order to get the desired output. We're all saved by the goodwill of God and we can only trust Him and His grace. All we can do is tell people the good news and let God sort it out.
If I get to heaven and see Hitler or Stalin, who am I to fault God? I should instead praise the vastness of His grace and mercy.
11 Do not speak against one another, brothers and sisters. The one who speaks against a brother or sister, or judges his brother or sister, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you, judging your neighbor?
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Post by Gary on Nov 21, 2020 14:10:11 GMT -6
Problem is, we don't know what is going on inside people, we can only judge from the outside. Ultimately though, I think it is God who saves, and we can't decide for Him who He can save. Also, God isn't a mathematical formula or a vending machine that we can decide whether someone has put in the proper input in order to get the desired output. We're all saved by the goodwill of God and we can only trust Him and His grace. All we can do is tell people the good news and let God sort it out. If I get to heaven and see Hitler or Stalin, who am I to fault God? I should instead praise the vastness of His grace and mercy. 11 Do not speak against one another, brothers and sisters. The one who speaks against a brother or sister, or judges his brother or sister, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you, judging your neighbor? No argument here. I'm in complete agreement. Also, I think that's an important piece often missed in Romans 10 is that Paul starts out by talking about how we shouldn't speculate who goes up or who goes down. All we are to do is preach the gospel. |
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