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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 11, 2017 0:27:56 GMT -6
Well, I guess that does make sense, but I still find it a little troublesome, because, I don't see this pattern of 24 elders decisively copied in the earthly tabernacle, thrones and crowns and all included. Are they 24 priests? It says elders, and does not seem to indicate they are priests, or do the priests' job. Or that the earthly priests do the elders' job.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 5:44:26 GMT -6
I still see this as a picture... it's called 'David's order of priests' in my bible
1Ch 23:13 The sons of Amram; Aaron and Moses: and Aaron was separated, that he should sanctify the most holy things, he and his sons for ever, to burn incense before the LORD, to minister unto him, and to bless in his name for ever.
1Ch 24:1 Now these are the divisions of the sons of Aaron. The sons of Aaron; Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. 1Ch 24:2 But Nadab and Abihu died before their father, and had no children: therefore Eleazar and Ithamar executed the priest's office. 1Ch 24:3 And David distributed them, both Zadok of the sons of Eleazar, and Ahimelech of the sons of Ithamar, according to their offices in their service. 1Ch 24:4 And there were more chief men found of the sons of Eleazar than of the sons of Ithamar; and thus were they divided. Among the sons of Eleazar there were sixteen chief men of the house of their fathers, and eight among the sons of Ithamar according to the house of their fathers
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Post by rt on Jul 11, 2017 8:54:18 GMT -6
Well, I guess that does make sense, but I still find it a little troublesome, because, I don't see this pattern of 24 elders decisively copied in the earthly tabernacle, thrones and crowns and all included. Are they 24 priests? It says elders, and does not seem to indicate they are priests, or do the priests' job. Or that the earthly priests do the elders' job. So in the earthly temple, the high priests served in rotations throughout the year and took turns according to the 24 family divisions as watchmanjim shared in his post above. The high priests also sat on the Sanhedrin, which in scripture is also called "the council of elders" (see Luke 22:66 and Acts 22:5). It acted as a tribunal, a sort of supreme court. In Christ's day they met in a place connected to the temple called the Chamber of Hewn Stone. It was comprised of 71 men, most of whom had served as high priests and was headed by the current acting High Priest. The acting High priest sat on a throne. (see image at link, I tried to embed it but for some reason it didn't work for me) cafn.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/the-sanhedrin.jpgThe high priest also wore on his head a golden crown, which he was to wear at all times when he served in the temple (see Exodus 28:36-28). So you see we have the elements, the thrones, the golden crowns and the council of the elders, depicted for us on earth. This heavenly council of elders, as I have shared would serve as the pattern for the earthly council of elders AKA the Sanhedrin.
We also have a precedent for what the function of these 24 heavenly elders is. I believe that during the millennium, these heavenly elders will be replaced by the resurrected disciples, to judge the tribes of Israel. Which is precisely the function that the Sanhedrin had. Daniel talks about how the kingdom is handed over to God's people: We see that a court sits to judge the man we call Antichrist, I believe that "court" is the heavenly court of the 24 elders, after the Antichrist is cast alive into the lake of fire, and his dominion is annihilated forever, THEN the kingdom is handed over to the saints, which would include the disciples, the tribulation saints and the rest of the body of Christ. The idea that the 24 elders sit on thrones denotes that they act as judges. During the Millennial kingdom the disciples are given jurisdiction over the nation of Israel, while the rest of the saints, as we are told, judge the world and angels:
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 10:21:11 GMT -6
Rt, What time is the post that you were talking about when you said: So in the earthly temple, the high priests served in rotations throughout the year and took turns according to the 24 family divisions as watchmanjim shared in his post above.
I know I am late on the draw in this conversation but I am trying to catch up.
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Post by rt on Jul 11, 2017 16:27:05 GMT -6
Rt, What time is the post that you were talking about when you said: So in the earthly temple, the high priests served in rotations throughout the year and took turns according to the 24 family divisions as watchmanjim shared in his post above. I know I am late on the draw in this conversation but I am trying to catch up. I was referring to the post just before mine, by watchmanjim, he shared the divisions of the priesthood. (The sons of Aaron) But now that I look at it, he didn't share the full list of family divisions so here it is: These are the descendants of the surviving children of Aaron, Eleazar and Ithamar, who served as priests and performed the service of the temple. They were divided by lot according to families when David was King.
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Post by AlwaysPraying on Sept 13, 2017 15:29:31 GMT -6
I used to think the 24 elders referenced in the book of Revelation were the 12 apostles and the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel. But now, I think it's possible that they could be the ones who were raised with Christ after His crucifixion and resurrection. If so, the 24 elders couldn't include the 12 apostles who were all alive at His resurrection. And later in the book of Revelation, John is told the 12 tribes of Israel are the 12 gates of the New Jerusalem and the apostles the 12 foundations of the city (Revelation 21:12-14). So, if the 24 elders were made up of these 2 groups (12 apostles and 12 tribes), one would expect John to be told this (they didn't conceal from him his name as a foundation of the city). Before the building of the first Jewish temple (when there was an intermediate tabernacle), 24 priests of Aaron's line (the brother of Moses) were chosen to serve as leaders over the divisions of priests who were to serve in the finished temple (1 Chronicles 24). - 2 Chronicles 5:11 - when the ark of the covenant was brought into the temple built by Solomon, before the dedication of the temple, all of the priests sanctified themselves, and all served, regardless of their divisions.
We know things on earth are a shadow of things in heaven (Matthew 6:10).
Believers will be priests of God and of Christ. In the old testament, 24 priests were specially designated before the first temple was built, as overseers of the other priests who would serve in rotations in the temple.
Perhaps, after the dedication of the millennial temple (with all sanctified priests serving during the dedication), the 24 elders (possibly those who were raised at Christ's resurrection) will serve as the stewards over the rest of God's people who will be serving rotations as priests at the temple in the holy city of the saints during the 1000 year millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:9).
There will be no temple in the eternal state (Revelation 21:22).
TL;DR summary: Just as 24 special priests were designated, before the building of the first temple, as leaders over the other priests, I think the 24 elders may be those resurrected at Christ's resurrection, who were chosen before the installation of the millennial temple as leaders over the redeemed priesthood serving during the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth.
Note: I first heard speculation about the 24 elder's identity as those raised with Christ in a video by "God's Roadmap to the End" on youtube.
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 13, 2017 21:34:03 GMT -6
Interesting thoughts, AP! Member rt had a lot to say about the 24 elders, too. I think I will merge this thread into one where we have been talking about it. Now that it's merged, you can go back and see what's been said before.
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Post by AlwaysPraying on Sept 13, 2017 22:26:48 GMT -6
watchmanjim Thanks for merging my thread into this one. I'm new around here and hadn't stumbled across this thread yet. Within the past few days was the first I'd ever considered that the 24 elders might not represent the 12 apostles and 12 tribes. So that got me speculating. So it's weird (and wonderful) to see this thread with so many speculating the same things I've been thinking on.
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Post by rt on Sept 14, 2017 9:00:03 GMT -6
watchmanjim Thanks for merging my thread into this one. I'm new around here and hadn't stumbled across this thread yet. Within the past few days was the first I'd ever considered that the 24 elders might not represent the 12 apostles and 12 tribes. So that got me speculating. So it's weird (and wonderful) to see this thread with so many speculating the same things I've been thinking on. Welcome AlwaysPraying, I have often seen folks speculate on those saints that were raised at Christ's resurrection. However the scripture never says that they were resurrected to heaven. I believe that these "saints" were raised to live an extended mortal life. This incident is not unlike an event of the Old Testament, when Elisha died and was buried The dead man who was exposed to the spiritual power of Elisha the prophet's newly buried corpse came to life. The spiritual power embodied in Christ caused a great earthquake and the veil in the temple was torn as He died. I believe this power may have spread through the earth to these dead saints buried within the tombs. Notice that not all the saints were raised, but many were. I would suspect that these saints were only recently buried and because their bodies had not undergone decay, that they were able to benefit by this power surging through the earth. But that is merely speculation on my part. There is another problem with this view, and that is that there is an appointed time for the resurrection of the righteous and it has not yet happened, there were some who were claiming that it had: "The resurrection" is yet future from Paul's day. There is no special resurrection ever spoken of for a select few, other than the two witnesses in the Revelation, there is no scripture that would support that idea, the passage in Matthew never says that these saints were resurrected to heaven, only that they were raised and came out of their tombs and appeared to many. (They showed themselves to others) The other issue, at least from my perspective, is that I see the scene in Rev. 4/5 as depicting something from John's past, which is the entrance of the Lamb that was slain into heaven, Jesus entering into heaven to assume His place at the right hand of the Father after His death and resurrection. John sees the 24 elders seated in heaven before Jesus enters, therefore there is no possible way that the elders could be resurrected saints, since Jesus Himself had yet to become the firstborn of the dead to be raised to heaven. They cannot possibly be human beings raise to eternal life. But many would disagree with my take on this.
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Post by AlwaysPraying on Sept 14, 2017 14:55:08 GMT -6
Those are good points rt. The 24 elders may not be those who were resurrected during Christ's resurrection. But I do think it's possible (though still speculation) they'll fulfill the same role in the millennial temple as the heads of the 24 divisions of priests in the OT.
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Post by gospelaxiom on Sept 14, 2017 21:02:51 GMT -6
I agree with what Greg Lauer has to say about this. The 24 elders are the church, the elders are in white linen and have crowns... hmmm sounds familiar doesn't it? He explains that the number 24 represents a group, King David divided the Levitical priests into 24 divisions called courses and also divided the musicians in a similar fashion...this is a long article and that's just the tip of the ice berg. He makes a strong case for it: www.alittlestrength.com/articles/2015/1505-gang.htm.
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