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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2017 17:55:04 GMT -6
I don't see what I posted this morning!
Hey Jim, the forever part is in chapter 23.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 16, 2017 18:06:01 GMT -6
Ok, I see it. I'm not sure it's conclusive, but it's definitely a possibility, especially in light of the timetable rt has given us for Revelation, it makes sense.  |
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Post by findtruth on Jul 4, 2017 10:05:54 GMT -6
I just posted a new thread called the throne room of God. The video is a picture of the of Rev 4-5. There is a good representation of the 24 elders. I am interested in your views. I am still believing the traditional view that the 24 elders represent the church even though rt presents an interesting case.
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Post by findtruth on Jul 9, 2017 15:09:08 GMT -6
I also can see how the great multitude of chapter 7 verses 9-10 fit the church very well. Then who are the 24 elders? They also seem to fit well for the church. How can the church be represented in 2 different places as ' appearing' if my theory is correct?
Revelation has many layers and it's not in strict chronilogical order, but many parts do follow an order. Many Rev 4-5 is an overall picture and the following chapters break it down in more details that do follow chronilogical order. I am really not sure. I'm open to others opinions..
I copied and pasted this response from the thread called the throne room of God. It belongs in this thread.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 15:43:00 GMT -6
The 24 Elders would be angelic beings surrounding the Throne. I tend to take the Bible literally, so this fits in a literal interpretation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 15:55:59 GMT -6
I've just been watching a series of videos over this weekend and certainly have me thinking outside my box!
The videos are called God's roadmap to the end. If you look at the part two of the rapture series, you will see a very interesting thought process of who everybody is and the 24 elders are included. It's really long but it's really packed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 19:11:12 GMT -6
I have a love-hate relationship with Roadmap. They have some great theories, but have made wrong predictions and are large Nibiru supporters. What do you think, Truthseeker?
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Post by findtruth on Jul 9, 2017 19:12:29 GMT -6
I'll have to look into that truthseeker. Thanks for that.
I also believe in the literal interpretation of scripture. Also, each symbol in revelation can be interpreted elsewhere in the scripture. That's why I came originally to my conclusions about the 24 elders symbolizing the church. I will be looking into alternative interpretations and praying for wisdom. Maybe they actually are angelic beings. If that is the case, the great multitude could indeed be the raptured church. One would have then to believe that some of the seals are history and that the pre tribulation rapture happens at the 6 th seal . These are not the traditional beliefs but I believe that God is opening up many doors to us now. This is the time of the end and Bible prophecy is being understood and fulfilled.
I am letting the holy Spirit guide me as I pray for knowledge and wisdom. My name on this forum is ' find truth' because I will continue to keep searching out a matter.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 20:08:13 GMT -6
One thing you might consider when pondering this intriguing question......the elder speaking with John was speaking one on one, an individual to individual.....this makes it difficult for me to accept that the elders are a metaphor for the Church at large...in other words, was John speaking with 1/24th of the Church, or an individual being?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 20:35:49 GMT -6
Beloved, I just watched the Sept 23rd sign series-it's the first time that I've watched God's roadmap...I tend to not watch videos too much. I have to discipline myself to stay in the book. I like it better anyway because I get to read/service it with my own eyes and it sticks. I'll admit he's got stuff I've never seen before. But some of his deductions do seem valid. The Niburu thing-really doesn't phase me much, as I also don't get too much into concern about the the details of Revelation. Once I got the jest of the layout enough so I could converse with people intelligently, I've gone back into witnessing about the love of God and that his arms are still outstretched for those who will come to him. That's why I don't post a lot about revelation, because I don't see the church in it. I personally see it as Jesus coming to judge an unbelieving world and reclaiming everything according to his laws. So many things that you can see in Deuteronomy, about how to handle things that you see him doing in Revelation. I am not of Hebrew descent nor even know anyone who is. so I am very much like a converted Roman knowing very little about the Hebrew history and being converted to a Jesus follower based on faith alone in the works of Jesus Christ. I'm just excited for the world to be made right and to walk in Real love with my fellow man and be able to be face to face with my God and visit with him about so many things.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 23:33:44 GMT -6
I have read a description that currently makes most sense to me.
24 elders are symbolic representation of both Old and New Testament resurrected and raptured saints. 12 for the Old and 12 for the New, representing 12 tribes of Israel and 12 apostles.
But being a symbolic representation, elders are actually all resurrected and raptured Old and New Testament saints. They wear white garments, have crowns on their heads (Revelation 4:4), and sing a song praising Jesus for redeeming people from every tribe and language and nation (Revelation 5:9). They also sing about being made kings and priests (Revelation 5:10). 1 Peter confirms that all New Testament believers are "holy priesthood" and "royal priesthood" (1 Peter 2:5-9).
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 9, 2017 23:43:04 GMT -6
I have read a description that currently makes most sense to me. 24 elders are symbolic representation of both Old and New Testament resurrected and raptured saints. 12 for the Old and 12 for the New, representing 12 tribes of Israel and 12 apostles. But, as I said, it's symbolic representation. Elders are actually all resurrected and raptured Old and New Testament saints. They wear white garments, have crowns on their heads (Revelation 4:4), and sing a song praising Jesus for redeeming people from every tribe and language and nation (Revelation 5:9). They also sing about being made kings and priests (Revelation 5:10). 1 Peter confirms that all New Testament believers are "holy priesthood" and "royal priesthood" (1 Peter 2:5-9). Henry, I have also thought about the possibility of them being 12 and 12, OT and NT. That would make it not fit rt's timeline very well, where I believe she has them being all OT persons. One other issue, which is maybe not prohibitive, but is at least curious, is this: If 12 (or all 24) are NT elders, wouldn't John be one of them? In which case, it would be weird (but maybe not impossible) for him to be seeing himself there as one of them. If this is the case, he does not tell us so, but then again, he always was a very humble man in his writings, not referring to himself by name in most cases. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 0:10:49 GMT -6
Henry, I have also thought about the possibility of them being 12 and 12, OT and NT. That would make it not fit rt's timeline very well, where I believe she has them being all OT persons. One other issue, which is maybe not prohibitive, but is at least curious, is this: If 12 (or all 24) are NT elders, wouldn't John be one of them? In which case, it would be weird (but maybe not impossible) for him to be seeing himself there as one of them. If this is the case, he does not tell us so, but then again, he always was a very humble man in his writings, not referring to himself by name in most cases. Jim, if 24 elders are symbolic representation, he didn't actually see literal situation, just like he didn't see other literal situations when he saw beasts and harlot and other things. Not to mention that John seeing the vision could be like an outer-body experience, when people see themselves on operating table, for example. It's a vision afterall. About all being OT saints, take this into consideration: angel, probably Jesus, tells Daniel at the end of Daniel 12: "You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance." So Daniel is OT saint yet he has to wait end of days to receive his inheritance. I read it as Daniel being resurrected with everybody else who is asleep, in what we understand as pre-trib rapture event. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 10, 2017 0:36:11 GMT -6
Yes, you bring up some interesting points! Well, as I've indicated before, I am really looking forward to meeting these people myself, and I reckon it will be rather soon. One thing, I really can't see the 24 elders being only symbolic representations. There are two things I'm fairly for sure about: 1. They are all individual human beings. 2. They were/are all on hand and established in heaven by the time Jesus begins/began opening the 7 seals. Now, if I'm wrong, I guess we'll find out soon. |
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Post by rt on Jul 10, 2017 22:40:16 GMT -6
I think I mentioned this earlier in this thread, and maybe in my other thread about the pre-trib rapture too. But will say it again for clarification. What I see happening in Chapter 4 of the revelation is that John is caught up into the heavenly tabernacle as it was under the Old Covenant era. It has to be understood that the heavenly tabernacle during those days served as the pattern for both the earthly tabernacle in the wilderness, and also later for Solomon's temple in Jerusalem. You see the elements of the temple shown to John, the seven branched menorah = the seven spirits of God appearing as flames of fire. You see the golden altar of incense, you see the cherubim = the four living creatures, you also see the crystal sea = the brazen laver , and then you see the 24 elders, these 24 elders IMO are a heavenly high priesthood, they serve as the pattern for the 24 divisions of the priesthood that served in the earthly temple and act as a heavenly court, much like the Sanhedrin on earth. These elders are not and never were mortal men in my opinion, They cannot be, because John sees the heavenly tabernacle before Christ enters as the Lamb that was slain, When Jesus enters He inaugurates the New Testament era which began with His resurrection after his death and crucifixion on earth. These 24 elders could not be resurrected mortals, because they could not have preceded Christ in the resurrection as Christ was the first to be resurrected, the first born of the dead. I believe that they are some kind of spiritual being, I do not know if they would be classified as angels or some other kind of being that we do not know of, all we know is that they are "elders". The book of Hebrews I believe gives us a clue as to who these elders are, it mirrors what John sees happen when the Lamb (Jesus) enters the heavenly tabernacle as if slain You see here in Hebrews, that Jesus the perfect High Priest entered the heavenly sanctuary as mediator of a better covenant. But those who serve as High priests on earth ("who offer the gifts according to the Law") serve as a COPY and a SHADOW of the heavenly things. Those high priests on earth were patterned after their heavenly counterpart, the 24 elders, at least that is what I believe, that is the heavenly thing that they "copy", they also served as a shadow of what was to come, in Christ, the perfect High Priest who would fulfill for all time the atonement of mankind. The passage goes on to remind the reader that the earthly temple was patterned after what was in heaven. It makes sense to me I hope that I am making sense to you all.  |
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