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Post by venge on Apr 8, 2020 4:56:48 GMT -6
How many heads does a man have? This is the same beast that is said: How can a man have 7 heads and 10 horns? Are not horns men themselves? And a man wearing a crown symbolizes his rulership? And the physical makeup of this beast that receives the mortal wound, how does a man resemble a leopard, a bear and a mouth of a lion? All three of those characteristics resembled empires...not men nor the men that ruled those nations. Venge, I checked what you pointed out against two other passages, and I guess you could say 'my eyes were opened'. Have a look at these two passages: I propose that the fourth beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is a kingdom as you say, and so in that sense, I agree with you. However, I propose that the one horn is the horn that is doing the boastful speaking on behalf of the [first] 'beast' and exercising its authority. This is the AC. I propose that the one head that had the fatal wound got that fatal wound before the three heads gave their power to it, and that the one head that got the fatal wound is the AC. It is possible that the beast out of the earth is the AC, and the beast out of the sea is the government that the AC takes over.
The man is the government (exercises authority on its behalf). The government is the man. It is the man that conquers the holy people. It is the man that speaks boastfully. It is the man that is the AC.No problem brother. I thank you for looking into it and getting back to me. I will link your response in quotes and I will respond to each. Yes, the 4th beast is a kingdom; this is the one that comes out of the sea. I also agree the horn that speaks boastfully on behalf of the beast of the sea which this horn exercises its authority is the Anti-Christ. I'm a little confused on the wording from your second statement. Are you saying, if I may write it a different way, the AC is one of the 7 heads of the beast, and that head received power from the lion, bear and leopard heads after his death wound? Remember, 5 are fallen, one IS and the other has not yet come in John's time. That is a total of 7. But there is an 8th too. The resurrection head becomes the 8th, so all 7 fall dead but one head thought to be dead...comes back. If the heads are all kingdoms, one could easily argue a kingdom could come back to life when it was thought to be removed. Example: Nazi Empire was removed, but can a Nazi Empire come back? These kingdoms, though all 7 fell and lost their authority...remain as scripture says..they remain in nations today. Babylon = Iraq, Persian=Iran, Grecian=Greece, Roman=Italy, Egyptian=Egypt etc.. Which head received the wound that will live isn't mentioned. But we do know there is a mystery Babylon that will live. What is the mystery? Is it literal mud and brick Babylon, is it a spiritual Babylon within the nations today or is it a literal kingdom created in Babylon's image? I 100% agree based on scripture I suppose the government could be seen as the man but if the man is removed, the government still goes on. This is why both, the beast of the earth (false prophet) and the beast of the sea (the kingdom the false prophet exercises) are thrown into the lake of fire. They all must be removed. Yes, a man is the Anti-Christ and we also have men that are anti-Christ. But who are the Holy People? Jews before conversion, true Christians, both or some other combination? =P |
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Post by matthew2423 on Apr 8, 2020 9:10:33 GMT -6
thetimeoftheend, yardstick, fitz, Natalie, I would take a guess that if the Antichrist is Jewish, then he would have to have the same credentials that Jesus had in order to be the Messiah, as said in Judaism. He would have to be of course Jewish, descended from the line of King David, and even born in Bethlehem. If the Antichrist does this, I think that it would be the Enemy’s way of copying what Christ did, being born in Bethlehem, being Jewish, and being descended from King David. That’s what I think would have to happen in order for the Antichrist to be recognized by the Jews as their “Messiah”.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 8, 2020 13:03:38 GMT -6
Natalie , barbiosheepgirl - yes, what you say is correct, but I am speaking of the one that's coming who the Bible calls "the beast" or the "little horn" or the "man of lawlessness" (man of sin). And what if the removal of the church removes the blindness? Rom 11:25-27 Heres a thought though: Do we really know for sure that the end of the Gentiles is at a Rapture event? It sure seems like all nations, tongues tribes and peoples come for healing during as Jesus rules on earth. If Jesus did come the first time, did He not fulfill the purpose of the Line of David, Tribe of Judah, so the time of the Israel has been made complete, and then now Gentile can be grafted. Now it is time for BOTH entities to be involved, not go back to the previous group? 5Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
6For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, 7and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them
23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
Hebrews 7
and, for Romans 11
I do not see that the gentiles are gone, but
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”You and I see how this is accomplished differently, I guess. When it says the Deliverer will come from Zion, this to me is not a group of people leaving earth, but a manifestation ON EARTH as it is in Heaven, with stumbling blocks removed, so the hardened heart will learn righteous. AND MUCH PREACHING FROM MIDHEAVEN to accomplish this. BUT, it will not be an easy event for the re-grafting to happen, which is why it seems fitting that the modern day jew could very well be at a crossroads of an antichrist leadership that goes counter to the New Covenant transformed saints.
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Post by yardstick on Apr 12, 2020 18:39:08 GMT -6
Venge, I checked what you pointed out against two other passages, and I guess you could say 'my eyes were opened'. Have a look at these two passages: I propose that the fourth beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is a kingdom as you say, and so in that sense, I agree with you. However, I propose that the one horn is the horn that is doing the boastful speaking on behalf of the [first] 'beast' and exercising its authority. This is the AC. I propose that the one head that had the fatal wound got that fatal wound before the three heads gave their power to it, and that the one head that got the fatal wound is the AC. It is possible that the beast out of the earth is the AC, and the beast out of the sea is the government that the AC takes over.
The man is the government (exercises authority on its behalf). The government is the man. It is the man that conquers the holy people. It is the man that speaks boastfully. It is the man that is the AC.No problem brother. I thank you for looking into it and getting back to me. I will link your response in quotes and I will respond to each. Yes, the 4th beast is a kingdom; this is the one that comes out of the sea. I also agree the horn that speaks boastfully on behalf of the beast of the sea which this horn exercises its authority is the Anti-Christ. I'm a little confused on the wording from your second statement. Are you saying, if I may write it a different way, the AC is one of the 7 heads of the beast, and that head received power from the lion, bear and leopard heads after his death wound? Remember, 5 are fallen, one IS and the other has not yet come in John's time. That is a total of 7. But there is an 8th too. The resurrection head becomes the 8th, so all 7 fall dead but one head thought to be dead...comes back. If the heads are all kingdoms, one could easily argue a kingdom could come back to life when it was thought to be removed. Example: Nazi Empire was removed, but can a Nazi Empire come back? These kingdoms, though all 7 fell and lost their authority...remain as scripture says..they remain in nations today. Babylon = Iraq, Persian=Iran, Grecian=Greece, Roman=Italy, Egyptian=Egypt etc.. Which head received the wound that will live isn't mentioned. But we do know there is a mystery Babylon that will live. What is the mystery? Is it literal mud and brick Babylon, is it a spiritual Babylon within the nations today or is it a literal kingdom created in Babylon's image? I 100% agree based on scripture I suppose the government could be seen as the man but if the man is removed, the government still goes on. This is why both, the beast of the earth (false prophet) and the beast of the sea (the kingdom the false prophet exercises) are thrown into the lake of fire. They all must be removed. Yes, a man is the Anti-Christ and we also have men that are anti-Christ. But who are the Holy People? Jews before conversion, true Christians, both or some other combination? =P . 2. Only the last beast described in Daniel 7 is the same as the beast described in Revelation. Notice the similar descriptions of its activities. It is this beast which has the 7 heads and 10 horns. It is a world empire. A world government beast, as the first three were. Here are the relevant passages for comparison: The fourth beast: Daniel 7:7The first three beasts are described as: What we see in Revelation of the fourth beast is that it exhibits aspects or properties or elements of the first three. Those first three no longer exist, but there are remnants left over. Bits and pieces which are incorporated into the fourth: Revelation 13The presumption is that the three empires were the Babylonian, Persian, and Greek; but I am not 100% sold on that. I would propose; however, that if they are, it would match up with the 7 heads and 10 horns in the sense that the resemblance of the leopard (Greece) would be in its structure (nation-states, satrapies?), feet like a bear (Persia) in its power, mouth like a lion (Bablyon) - Nebuchadnezzar - in its boastfulness (the AC)... 3. Yes, I believe the one that is was the Roman Empire, the one that was to come is likely Nazi Germany, and the 8th which will be 'of the 7' is the fourth beast of Daniel, comprising some overlapping geographic and political area of one or more of the prior 7 (probably more than 1). It would be interesting to see an overlay map of each of the empires, to show how their borders overlapped each other. I suspect that we are looking at a middle eastern confederacy of some kind (one of the 'legs' of the Daniel chapter 2 statue - the eastern Roman empire). In addition, if we refer to the passage in Daniel that talks about 'the people of the Prince to come', and having looked into the legions who were involved in the sacking of Jerusalem in 70AD, (analysis here) I believe it is likely the V Macedonica legion or the X Fretensis legion was the legion that had the soldier that set the Temple on fire (see excerpt below). The V Macedonica legion was headquartered out of the northern part of Greece. the X Fretensis legion was headquartered out of Zeugma, in Turkey (see link here for its most likely location). 4. We know the Holy People will be made war against, and overcome:Revelation 13Daniel 7:7Daniel 7:25'Saints'? This term used by Daniel in the OT? It is a term used for Believers in the NT!A search for "Holy People" in Biblehub brings up these references: Isaiah 62 - Note verses 1-5 and 11-12 - Understanding that Believers are 'grafted into' the House of Jacob (honorary Israelites, as it were). The last half of verse 6 through verse 7 sounds an awful lot like the 5th seal of Revelation 6:9-10Colossians 3:11-12 (NLT) says that the Holy People are believers Daniel 7:17 says that Dominion and sovereignty will be given to the saints of the Most High 1 Corinthians 1:2 (NIV) - Christians called to be God's Holy People There are others. barbiosheepgirl , the above ties in with what you were posting about... So I would propose that the 'Holy People' are the body of Christ; and if the Church is gone via harpazo, then the only 'Holy People' left who can be oppressed/overcome/conquered will be the Trib Saints... Siege of Jerusalem - wikipediaHow did Josephus know? He was part of the Roman Legions there! |
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Post by yardstick on Apr 12, 2020 18:45:13 GMT -6
thetimeoftheend , yardstick , fitz , Natalie , I would take a guess that if the Antichrist is Jewish, then he would have to have the same credentials that Jesus had in order to be the Messiah, as said in Judaism. He would have to be of course Jewish, descended from the line of King David, and even born in Bethlehem. If the Antichrist does this, I think that it would be the Enemy’s way of copying what Christ did, being born in Bethlehem, being Jewish, and being descended from King David. That’s what I think would have to happen in order for the Antichrist to be recognized by the Jews as their “Messiah”. Or, he could lie about it...? |
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Post by venge on Apr 13, 2020 5:00:36 GMT -6
yardstick , I agree with everything you said except this. So I would propose that the 'Holy People' are the body of Christ; and if the Church is gone via the harpazo, then the only people left would be the wicked. The only 'Holy People' who can be oppressed/overcome/conquered will be the Trib Saints... There is no special class of believers in the end except the 144k. The term "Trib saints" is really misleading. It is not mentioned in the Bible and is not eluded to either. If we are talking about end times, any true believer during that time is a saint. There is no reason to separate us from them as John didn't separate us from them. Without any assumptions of when the rapture takes place from any theories, the literal reading of 'Saints' as you pointed out above reflect us. Exactly, this is one reason we are with them. Do Jews whave to endure God's wrath or just the time of Jacob's trouble, ie. persecution? Why would we be here with them in that time? To refine the weak (Rev 2-3) That Christ may dwell in the hearts of others that see us remain firm in trouble (Eph 3:13-19) For their consolation and salvation (2 Cor 1:6) Through our resilience in persecution, much more people to boldly speak of Christ (Phil 1:14) And we aren't just to believe, but to suffer persecution (Phil 1:29) Because all that live in Christ will suffer persecution (2 Tim 3:12) But Glory in persecutions because they work patience (Rom 5:3) And when we are persecuted, we are blessed because the prophets were also persecuted; and out reward will be great because of it (Matt 5:11-12)
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 13, 2020 8:31:34 GMT -6
yardstick , I agree with everything you said except this. So I would propose that the 'Holy People' are the body of Christ; and if the Church is gone via the harpazo, then the only people left would be the wicked. The only 'Holy People' who can be oppressed/overcome/conquered will be the Trib Saints... There is no special class of believers in the end except the 144k. The term "Trib saints" is really misleading. It is not mentioned in the Bible and is not eluded to either. If we are talking about end times, any true believer during that time is a saint. There is no reason to separate us from them as John didn't separate us from them. Without any assumptions of when the rapture takes place from any theories, the literal reading of 'Saints' as you pointed out above reflect us. Exactly, this is one reason we are with them. Do Jews whave to endure God's wrath or just the time of Jacob's trouble, ie. persecution? Why would we be here with them in that time? To refine the weak (Rev 2-3) That Christ may dwell in the hearts of others that see us remain firm in trouble (Eph 3:13-19) For their consolation and salvation (2 Cor 1:6) Through our resilience in persecution, much more people to boldly speak of Christ (Phil 1:14) And we aren't just to believe, but to suffer persecution (Phil 1:29) Because all that live in Christ will suffer persecution (2 Tim 3:12) But Glory in persecutions because they work patience (Rom 5:3) And when we are persecuted, we are blessed because the prophets were also persecuted; and out reward will be great because of it (Matt 5:11-12) ^^^THIS!!! absolutely this has been impressed upon my heart in the past year and a half! Liking this compilation and if I could add a few more outside the quote
venge, I say Amen, and to bring in a third witness, I share this from him: For me I see this is much supported by Rev 14, and a detail of the fall of MB Rev 17. Thanks to Unsealed and others these past 3 years for this journey thru the Scriptures! I realize that not all will agree with this stance, as it is not really a pre-trib, nor even a mid-trib because it does not involve a 7 year timeframe for me. That's ok. The more I read Paul, the more it seems the great affliction has been being revealed thru the Holy Spirit from the day the Helper was sent out thru the earth after the Ascension. This affliction: our flesh! which can not let go of the law, is still being held in bondage... Only in, by and through Jesus Christ our Lord can this battle be won, not our own doing. Paul to the Romans says: 21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
This flesh can not inherit the Kingdom that will be soon established on Earth, Paul goes on to say in 1Cor, which REVEALS EVERYTHING! 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
55“O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?”
56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Post by matthew2423 on Apr 14, 2020 7:05:04 GMT -6
thetimeoftheend , yardstick , fitz , Natalie , I would take a guess that if the Antichrist is Jewish, then he would have to have the same credentials that Jesus had in order to be the Messiah, as said in Judaism. He would have to be of course Jewish, descended from the line of King David, and even born in Bethlehem. If the Antichrist does this, I think that it would be the Enemy’s way of copying what Christ did, being born in Bethlehem, being Jewish, and being descended from King David. That’s what I think would have to happen in order for the Antichrist to be recognized by the Jews as their “Messiah”. Or, he could lie about it...? That’s true, he could lie about it and come up with some DNA or genetic report that could “back up” his claim. |
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