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Post by boraddict on Feb 25, 2020 7:03:39 GMT -6
I have often considered Rev. 6:6 to be one of the most fascinating verses in the Book of Revelation and for several reasons to wit:
1) The horse is black in contrast to the white horse of Rev. 6:2 whose rider is the Savior (Rev. 19:11-16).
2) The rider of the horse has a pair of balances in his hand showing that he exercises judgment.
3) A voice from the midst of the four beasts speaks to the rider of the black horse (Rev. 6:6) and this voice from the midst is the Savior as shown in Rev. 5:6.
4) Christ's instructions to the rider of the black horse are how to exercise judgment as he serves the Savior to wit: "A measure of wheat for a penny and three measures of barley for a penny" additionally to the rider of the black horse "see thou hurt not the oil and the wine." These instructions from the Savior to the rider of the black horse are how to purchase the wheat and barley while at the same time not hurting the emblems of the sacrament (oil metaphorically representing the bread).
Further, the money as referenced in Rev. 6:6 belongs to the state in contrast to the wheat and barley that belongs to Christ. As you may recall Jesus in the NT stating that we are to render unto Cesar that which is Cesar's and to God that which is God's. So the rider of the black horse that is a servant of the Savior is to purchase via state commerce the wheat and barley that are Christ's (metaphorically speaking).
Next; it is easy to see the link from Rev. 6:6 to Rev. 7:3 wherein the angel having the "seal of the living God" (Rev. 7:2) gives instruction that pertains to not hurting the 144,000 that are to be sealed. This link establishes a strong propensity that the rider of the black horse in Verses 6:5-6 is the angel of Verse 7:2-3.
Since the angel (v. 7:2-3) is concerned with the 144,000 then the link to Verse 6:5-6 is that the emblems of the sacrament as well as the wheat and barley represent the 144,000.
The above evidence supports that the purchase of the 144,000 (including others as stipulated to in Rev. 7:9, 19:6, etc.) precedes the destruction by the beast as shown in Rev. 6:8.
Additionally, those whom belong to the state are given as a purchase price as represented by the penny (KJV) in Verse 6:6 and we see these world events unfolding at this time. It follows that once the price has been satisfied then the rapture process will begin. If this analysis is correct then we will first will see the fall of the Babylonian economic system (capitalism) and then the rapture process followed by the complete destruction of Babylon by the beast (Rev. 17:16).
The rapture process involves 1) an extraction to a gathering place (Matt. 24:40-41) here upon the earth and 2) remaining there for 3.5 years (Rev. 12:6).
Thus: The rapture process of Rev. 6:6 involves a payment to the state and then the extraction of saints followed by the rise of the beast in Rev. 6:8.
The above analysis is supported in Isaiah Chapters 18 and 19.
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Post by daniel on Feb 25, 2020 9:08:36 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing your thoughts... keeping it in consideration.
Question: Am I correct that you are indicating Matthew 24 is not about the nation of Israel, and the woman in Rev 12:6 is not either?
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Post by boraddict on Feb 25, 2020 13:25:06 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing your thoughts... keeping it in consideration. Question: Am I correct that you are indicating Matthew 24 is not about the nation of Israel, and the woman in Rev 12:6 is not either? Hi daniel. The rapture in Matt. 24:40-41 is not exclusive to the nation of Israel. Also, the servant referenced in Matt. 24:42-51 is not exclusive to the nation of Israel. So I guess I am saying that although Matt. 24 has applications to the nation of Israel it also includes Jews (Judah) and Christians (Ephraim) in the house of Israel. The woman in Rev. 12:6 is part of the prophecy in the Book of Revelation. That prophecy appears to consist of several parts one of which is the 144,000 that are derived from the house of Israel. Although some debate exists about the number of 144,000, I am convinced that the sealed number is 144.000 and there is also a "great multitude which no man could count" (Rev. 7:9). So to answer your question; no, the woman in Rev. 12:6 does not represent the nation of Israel but the followers of Christ. Please notice that in Rev. 12:1 the woman has the twelve stars as the crown upon her head. Since the twelve stars in the context that we are speaking could either be the twelve tribes or the twelve apostles of which neither are exclusively in the nation of Israel but are both in the house of Israel, then the evidence is that the woman is not the nation of Israel; because, the nation of Israel does not include all twelve tribes nor does it represent the twelve apostles. No, the woman is the church of Christ in this context. |
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Post by thetimeoftheend on Feb 25, 2020 21:25:41 GMT -6
I have often considered Rev. 6:6 to be one of the most fascinating verses in the Book of Revelation and for several reasons to wit: 1) The horse is black in contrast to the white horse of Rev. 6:2 whose rider is the Savior (Rev. 19:11-16). 2) The rider of the horse has a pair of balances in his hand showing that he exercises judgment. 3) A voice from the midst of the four beasts speaks to the rider of the black horse (Rev. 6:6) and this voice from the midst is the Savior as shown in Rev. 5:6. 4) Christ's instructions to the rider of the black horse are how to exercise judgment as he serves the Savior to wit: "A measure of wheat for a penny and three measures of barley for a penny" additionally to the rider of the black horse "see thou hurt not the oil and the wine." These instructions from the Savior to the rider of the black horse are how to purchase the wheat and barley while at the same time not hurting the emblems of the sacrament (oil metaphorically representing the bread). Further, the money as referenced in Rev. 6:6 belongs to the state in contrast to the wheat and barley that belongs to Christ. As you may recall Jesus in the NT stating that we are to render unto Cesar that which is Cesar's and to God that which is God's. So the rider of the black horse that is a servant of the Savior is to purchase via state commerce the wheat and barley that are Christ's (metaphorically speaking). Next; it is easy to see the link from Rev. 6:6 to Rev. 7:3 wherein the angel having the "seal of the living God" (Rev. 7:2) gives instruction that pertains to not hurting the 144,000 that are to be sealed. This link establishes a strong propensity that the rider of the black horse in Verses 6:5-6 is the angel of Verse 7:2-3. Since the angel (v. 7:2-3) is concerned with the 144,000 then the link to Verse 6:5-6 is that the emblems of the sacrament as well as the wheat and barley represent the 144,000. The above evidence supports that the purchase of the 144,000 (including others as stipulated to in Rev. 7:9, 19:6, etc.) precedes the destruction by the beast as shown in Rev. 6:8. Additionally, those whom belong to the state are given as a purchase price as represented by the penny (KJV) in Verse 6:6 and we see these world events unfolding at this time. It follows that once the price has been satisfied then the rapture process will begin. If this analysis is correct then we will first will see the fall of the Babylonian economic system (capitalism) and then the rapture process followed by the complete destruction of Babylon by the beast (Rev. 17:16). The rapture process involves 1) an extraction to a gathering place (Matt. 24:40-41) here upon the earth and 2) remaining there for 3.5 years (Rev. 12:6). Thus: The rapture process of Rev. 6:6 involves a payment to the state and then the extraction of saints followed by the rise of the beast in Rev. 6:8. The above analysis is supported in Isaiah Chapters 18 and 19. I know there are those who hold the view that Christ is the rider on the first white horse. But can you help me understand how you've arrived at that view? Aside from the colors of the horses being the same (we know Satan imitates God and will pretend to be the Christ). Also, we see Christ coming back at the end of the Tribulation to conquer his enemies. Why would he ride out in the beginning of the Tribulation with the same goal? |
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Post by Natalie on Feb 25, 2020 21:46:03 GMT -6
To add to thetimeoftheend's questions, How could Jesus ride out at the first seal yet still be in heaven opening the rest of the seals?
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Post by boraddict on Feb 25, 2020 21:59:36 GMT -6
I know there are those who hold the view that Christ is the rider on the first white horse. But can you help me understand how you've arrived at that view? Aside from the colors of the horses being the same (we know Satan imitates God and will pretend to be the Christ). Also, we see Christ coming back at the end of the Tribulation to conquer his enemies. Why would he ride out in the beginning of the Tribulation with the same goal? It took some time for me to accept that Christ was the rider of the white horse (Rev. 6:2) even though Rev. 19:11 shows this to be the case. However, while researching Chapter 5, I noticed that Christ opened the book and loosed the seals (Rev. 5:5) and then John at Rev. 6:1 saw Christ open the seals. This indicated to me that John was looking (in vision) back to the time when Christ opened the seal. This connection caused me to consider that Rev. 5:6 was showing that Christ conquered death. So in Rev. 6:2 where it states that the rider of the white horse went forth conquering I connected that Christ went forth conquering death. Then wherein it states that the rider of the white horse went forth to conquer I surmised that this referenced Rev. 19:11-21. 1) Christ went forth conquering when he lived in mortality to conquer sin, death, etc. 2) Christ will go forth to conquer as described in Chapter 19. As you can see I connected that Christ went for conquering (past tense) 2,000 years ago. Now however, Christ will go forth to conquer at the end of the tribulation. |
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Post by boraddict on Feb 25, 2020 22:17:28 GMT -6
To add to thetimeoftheend's questions, How could Jesus ride out at the first seal yet still be in heaven opening the rest of the seals? I think John saw back to the time to when Jesus opened the seals (Rev. 5:5), and then John gave a narrative (in Chapter 6) as to what he saw as Jesus opened the seals. If that is correct then the Savior has already opened the seals for himself and allowed John to see him open the seals (in vision). However, the literal opening of the seals wherein Christ goes for to conquer is during our time. Please consider Rev. 5:5 wherein Christ opened the seals and then in the next verse it shows that Christ went forth conquering death. So technically, the seal was opened and then Christ conquered death. I think the point of Rev. 6:2 is that Christ having already gone forth conquering is ready again to go forth to conquer. |
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Post by thetimeoftheend on Feb 26, 2020 6:41:21 GMT -6
To add to thetimeoftheend's questions, How could Jesus ride out at the first seal yet still be in heaven opening the rest of the seals? I think John saw back to the time to when Jesus opened the seals (Rev. 5:5), and then John gave a narrative (in Chapter 6) as to what he saw as Jesus opened the seals. If that is correct then the Savior has already opened the seals for himself and allowed John to see him open the seals (in vision). However, the literal opening of the seals wherein Christ goes for to conquer is during our time. Please consider Rev. 5:5 wherein Christ opened the seals and then in the next verse it shows that Christ went forth conquering death. So technically, the seal was opened and then Christ conquered death. I think the point of Rev. 6:2 is that Christ having already gone forth conquering is ready again to go forth to conquer. I think if Christ had been a conquering Messiah 2000 years ago, I don't know that the Church would exist. But I would point to to Rev 4:1, in which the vision begins, and Jesus tells John he will show him what must come AFTER this. |
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Post by mike on Feb 26, 2020 6:48:00 GMT -6
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Post by boraddict on Feb 26, 2020 12:10:29 GMT -6
I think John saw back to the time to when Jesus opened the seals (Rev. 5:5), and then John gave a narrative (in Chapter 6) as to what he saw as Jesus opened the seals. If that is correct then the Savior has already opened the seals for himself and allowed John to see him open the seals (in vision). However, the literal opening of the seals wherein Christ goes for to conquer is during our time. Please consider Rev. 5:5 wherein Christ opened the seals and then in the next verse it shows that Christ went forth conquering death. So technically, the seal was opened and then Christ conquered death. I think the point of Rev. 6:2 is that Christ having already gone forth conquering is ready again to go forth to conquer. I think if Christ had been a conquering Messiah 2000 years ago, I don't know that the Church would exist. But I would point to to Rev 4:1, in which the vision begins, and Jesus tells John he will show him what must come AFTER this. I understand what you are saying; however, the conquering 2,000 years ago was the conquering of death when Jesus was put on the cross. Now Jesus will come back to conquer again but this time it is not death but the wicked that are against Israel (Judah and Ephraim). Please consider if you will that the vision (of the tribulation) started at Rev. 6:1 with the opening of the seals and that Rev. 4:1 comes "after" the seals. That the "Come up hither" at Rev. 4:1 is a reference to the taking of the people from the earth, after the tribulation era. 1) Please look at the link in Rev. 4:6 wherein the earth in my opinion is a "sea of glass" and it is before the throne of God; it is crystal clear and clean. 2) This sea of glass comes after the beast has been destroyed as stated in Rev. 15:2. 3) It appears to me that Rev. 15:2-4 is an aside, and that the context of the chapter (15) is that Rev. 15:1 is followed by Rev. 15:5. 4) Another possibility is that John saw that which is coming "after," as he watched in vision Verses 15:2-4. 5) At any rate, the "sea of glass" reference links Verse 4:6 to Verse 15:2 and it is after the destruction of the beast. 6) It is for this reason that I place Chapter 4 (in time) at Rev. 11:12 wherein the two witnesses are told to come up hither. 7) If I am correct, then at chapter 4 wherein John is told to come up hither is where he is being shown the actual rapture wherein not only the two witnesses are taken up but all are taken up. Thus, it is my opinion that Chapter 4 is the "rapture chapter" that comes at the end; after the events of the seals have been completed. 8) Another thought, the rapture chapter is placed at the beginning (as chapter 4) because there is also a rapture that takes place in the beginning at Rev. 6:6. Two raptures in the tribulation era, or better stated, one in the beginning and one at the ending. |
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Post by mike on Feb 26, 2020 13:18:37 GMT -6
Just wanted to add something I literally stumbled onto minutes ago. This predictive analytic stuff has us all figured out  |
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Post by boraddict on Feb 26, 2020 22:27:58 GMT -6
Just wanted to add something I literally stumbled onto minutes ago. This predictive analytic stuff has us all figured out Hi Mike, this video is a great reference tool. As I was watching, the speaker mentioned "the bow" (at 31:32) as stated in Rev. 6:2. Interestingly I had been thinking about "the bow" today and considered that it might be something other than a weapon of war. This speaker states that it could be a reference to (paraphrasing) "an item of first mention" wherein the first time something is mentioned in scripture it is called a bow. If this is correct then the bow (given that I am correct and the rider of the white horse is Christ) is the book in the hand of God at Rev. 5:1. Thus, the rider of the white horse that is Christ has a bow (as in the book that was in the hand of God at Verse 5:1) and this bow was taken by Christ at Rev. 5:7. Secondly, please notice that Christ in Rev. 19:12 has many crowns. Thus, at Rev. 6:2 he is given one of many crowns that he has. That is, Verse 6:2 does not say that the rider of the white horse has one crown only; but that one crown was given to him. I propose that that crown in Rev. 6:2 is the crown of thorns. |
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Post by mike on Feb 27, 2020 10:50:12 GMT -6
boraddict , as I am cautious with many areas of prophecy I would strongly urge you to use caution in the application of the rider on the white horse in Rev 6 being Jesus as there is strong evidence that the riders on the horses (including the white) are not Godly, rather rather of the adversary. This rider on the white horse of Rev 6 is highly probable to be the anti-christ. Chuck Missler (in the video I posted) makes connections better than I can typing here around the 30 minute mark and on, especially around 45-50 mins. As you note the use of the word "bow" and the "first mention" being that the bow is more aligned with a covenant than it is archery. Who would or could be someone making a covenant (soon)? Please understand I am not trying to be dismissive of your research and current position, rather asking you to take another look with a different perspective if you havent already 
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Post by mike on Feb 27, 2020 11:23:17 GMT -6
He's got a few more on the 4 horsemen. Here's part 2 of the white horse rider.
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Post by bondservant on Feb 27, 2020 12:35:25 GMT -6
Hi Mike, this video is a great reference tool. As I was watching, the speaker mentioned "the bow" (at 31:32) as stated in Rev. 6:2. Interestingly I had been thinking about "the bow" today and considered that it might be something other than a weapon of war. This speaker states that it could be a reference to (paraphrasing) "an item of first mention" wherein the first time something is mentioned in scripture it is called a bow. If this is correct then the bow (given that I am correct and the rider of the white horse is Christ) is the book in the hand of God at Rev. 5:1. Thus, the rider of the white horse that is Christ has a bow (as in the book that was in the hand of God at Verse 5:1) and this bow was taken by Christ at Rev. 5:7. Secondly, please notice that Christ in Rev. 19:12 has many crowns. Thus, at Rev. 6:2 he is given one of many crowns that he has. That is, Verse 6:2 does not say that the rider of the white horse has one crown only; but that one crown was given to him. I propose that that crown in Rev. 6:2 is the crown of thorns. I do not believe this is a weapon of war either. The word bow (pronounced toxon - Greek τόξον) is only mentioned once which makes it a hapax legomenon (a word that occurs only once within a context, either in the written record of an entire language, in the works of an author, or in a single text). I tend to pay special attention to these types of words and try to dig into how the word originated. Often enough, a Greek word in the NT ends up being a transliterated from the Hebrew and is "adopted" in the Greek lexicon. Several things about this word perplex me. toxon: a bow Original Word: τόξον, ου, τό Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter Transliteration: toxon Phonetic Spelling: (tox'-on) Definition: a bow Usage: a bow. From the base of tikto; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric) -- bow. biblehub.com/greek/5115.htmtiktó: to beget, bring forth Original Word: τίκτω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: tiktó Phonetic Spelling: (tik'-to) Definition: to beget, bring forth Usage: I bear, bring forth, produce, beget, yield. Word Origin from a prim. root tek- Definition to beget, bring forth NASB Translation bear (4), birth (1), born (2), brings forth (1), gave birth (5), give birth (4), gives birth (1), labor (1). biblehub.com/greek/5088.htmWhy is it a "simplest fabric"?
I know this might be a stretch but I cant help but think of a rainbow flag.... interesting enough, the word translated as rainbow is also used only once in Genesis 9:13 yet the root comes from the same word used to describe a bow with arrows.qaš·tî — 1 Occurrence Genesis 9:13 HEB: אֶת־ קַשְׁתִּ֕י נָתַ֖תִּי בֶּֽעָנָ֑ן NAS: I set My bow in the cloud, KJV: I do set my bow in the cloud, INT: my bow set the cloud biblehub.com/hebrew/kashti_7198.htmqesheth: a bow Original Word: קֶשֶׁת Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: qesheth Phonetic Spelling: (keh'-sheth) Definition: a bow NAS Exhaustive Concordance Word Origin perhaps from qush Definition a bow NASB Translation archers* (3), arrows (1), bow (54), bowman* (1), bowmen (1), bows (13), bowshot* (1), rainbow (1). biblehub.com/hebrew/7198.htmThe other thing that perplexes me is I often try to find words that evolve from Hebrew to Greek to English etc so I searched where did the word toxin originate from?... and I stumbled on this:tox·ic /ˈtäksik/ Origin: mid 17th century: from medieval Latin toxicus ‘poisoned’, from Latin toxicum ‘poison’, from Greek toxikon (pharmakon) ‘(poison for) arrows’, from toxon ‘bow’. |
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