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Post by stormyknight on Dec 11, 2019 13:42:34 GMT -6
There has been something nagging me about Matthew 24 for quite awhile and I just wanted to post what I’ve been pondering so far. I’m using the ESV in BibleHub and will break it down from there. “Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” V.1-2Pretty straight forward here. We all know that Jesus was referring to the destruction of the physical Temple.
“As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” V. 3-14
Again, straight forward. This has been happening for the last two thousand years. Notice they didn't ask Him about the rapture. Why? Because they didn't have a clue about it yet. Otherwise, I think they would have been asking. I tried researching the word “they” in verse 9, but to no avail other than a general ‘someone’ doing the handing over, but I think this might, in part, refer to WW2 and prior when the Jews were delivered up to tribulation and put to death en masse. I think most references to this talk about Christians, which may be, but Israel is God’s chosen nation, so while the general population of the world may not make the connection, I’m convinced the attempt to exterminate the Jews was inspired by the devil or devils and is what Jesus eluded to. Which is why I looked into who “they” were.
““So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.” V. 15-28
We’re all waiting on pins and needles for this, right? One thing that piques my interest here is that our very Creator said in verse 20, “Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.” I take that to mean it could happen in winter or on a Sabbath! Also meaning it’s not set on a certain date of the calendar. This is the beginning of the Great Tribulation, as verse 21 shows, but those days are cut short for the sake of the elect. Wait! What elect? The rapture was supposed to happen before the AoD happened, right? Yes, I believe so. So these must be ‘tribulation saints’ who are also called ‘elect’.
So what happens that these days need to be cut short? Why would no human survive?
““Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” V. 29-31
We have seen the sun darkened by eclipses and, actually, at the same time, the moon does not give its light, but, if we take this into the context of verses 20-22, I would be inclined to suggest global thermonuclear war. That, in fact, would be something that humans, as well as most living creatures, would not survive. And, like on an overcast day, the sun is darkened by the clouds that would envelope the Earth, and the moon would not give its light. Ephesians 6:12 tells us about the spiritual powers that inhabit the heavenly realm (the sky above us) and, I believe verse 29 tells us when their power over the world is ended. In fact, I think the only one who could stop the powerful destruction unleashed on the Earth would be Jesus Christ! And wouldn't that show all humanity just a taste of His power? I mean, we (humanity in general) already don't give Him credit for creating the universe.
“Then will appear in heaven (the sky above us) the sign of the Son of Man”. What sign? Verse 27, “For as the lightning comes from the East and shines as far as the West, so will be the coming of the Son of Man”. Then ‘they’, the tribes of the Earth, will see Him coming!! YAY!!
Then with a loud trumpet call, His angels will gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This is another “wait, what??” moment. I think this is referring to the raptured saints, but is the trumpet call the same as the ‘last trump’? Could be, as we would all be ascending to Him as He descends to the Earth. We will be all over the Earth, ‘one end of heaven to the other’. Or are we already ascended/raptured, waiting to meet Him, kind of just hanging out (in the spiritual rooms prepared) till He gets here? This could be as well, as there is the idea that we will be raptured before the AoD.
The rest of the chapter is pretty much an admonition for us to keep watch. Be sober and wise. Don’t be taken off guard because if you, the person reading the chapter, is of the generation that sees all this happening, then know you’d better be awake and don’t falter or fade because His arrival is imminent. Anyway, those are my thoughts thus far. It’s the thing that there is still contention on ‘know one knows…’ but then there are the things that happened on God’s feast days and that it has been said that the rapture will occur on the Feast of Trumpets. Didn’t the Great Sign happen on the Feast of Trumpets? Wouldn’t that count as well? The fact that it is the only time we can calculate that it will ever happen is pretty significant, right? That leaves the Day of Atonement (Great Tribulation and return of Jesus Christ the King?) and the Feast of Tabernacles (the seventh millennium?) |
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Post by yardstick on Dec 11, 2019 21:05:09 GMT -6
There has been something nagging me about Matthew 24 for quite awhile and I just wanted to post what I’ve been pondering so far. I’m using the ESV in BibleHub and will break it down from there. “Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” V.1-2Pretty straight forward here. We all know that Jesus was referring to the destruction of the physical Temple.
“As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” V. 3-14
Again, straight forward. This has been happening for the last two thousand years. Notice they didn't ask Him about the rapture. Why? Because they didn't have a clue about it yet. Otherwise, I think they would have been asking. I tried researching the word “they” in verse 9, but to no avail other than a general ‘someone’ doing the handing over, but I think this might, in part, refer to WW2 and prior when the Jews were delivered up to tribulation and put to death en masse. I think most references to this talk about Christians, which may be, but Israel is God’s chosen nation, so while the general population of the world may not make the connection, I’m convinced the attempt to exterminate the Jews was inspired by the devil or devils and is what Jesus eluded to. Which is why I looked into who “they” were.
““So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.” V. 15-28
We’re all waiting on pins and needles for this, right? One thing that piques my interest here is that our very Creator said in verse 20, “Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.” I take that to mean it could happen in winter or on a Sabbath! Also meaning it’s not set on a certain date of the calendar. This is the beginning of the Great Tribulation, as verse 21 shows, but those days are cut short for the sake of the elect. Wait! What elect? The rapture was supposed to happen before the AoD happened, right? Yes, I believe so. So these must be ‘tribulation saints’ who are also called ‘elect’.
So what happens that these days need to be cut short? Why would no human survive?
““Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” V. 29-31
We have seen the sun darkened by eclipses and, actually, at the same time, the moon does not give its light, but, if we take this into the context of verses 20-22, I would be inclined to suggest global thermonuclear war. That, in fact, would be something that humans, as well as most living creatures, would not survive. And, like on an overcast day, the sun is darkened by the clouds that would envelope the Earth, and the moon would not give its light. Ephesians 6:12 tells us about the spiritual powers that inhabit the heavenly realm (the sky above us) and, I believe verse 29 tells us when their power over the world is ended. In fact, I think the only one who could stop the powerful destruction unleashed on the Earth would be Jesus Christ! And wouldn't that show all humanity just a taste of His power? I mean, we (humanity in general) already don't give Him credit for creating the universe.
“Then will appear in heaven (the sky above us) the sign of the Son of Man”. What sign? Verse 27, “For as the lightning comes from the East and shines as far as the West, so will be the coming of the Son of Man”. Then ‘they’, the tribes of the Earth, will see Him coming!! YAY!!
Then with a loud trumpet call, His angels will gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This is another “wait, what??” moment. I think this is referring to the raptured saints, but is the trumpet call the same as the ‘last trump’? Could be, as we would all be ascending to Him as He descends to the Earth. We will be all over the Earth, ‘one end of heaven to the other’. Or are we already ascended/raptured, waiting to meet Him, kind of just hanging out (in the spiritual rooms prepared) till He gets here? This could be as well, as there is the idea that we will be raptured before the AoD.
The rest of the chapter is pretty much an admonition for us to keep watch. Be sober and wise. Don’t be taken off guard because if you, the person reading the chapter, is of the generation that sees all this happening, then know you’d better be awake and don’t falter or fade because His arrival is imminent. Anyway, those are my thoughts thus far. It’s the thing that there is still contention on ‘know one knows…’ but then there are the things that happened on God’s feast days and that it has been said that the rapture will occur on the Feast of Trumpets. Didn’t the Great Sign happen on the Feast of Trumpets? Wouldn’t that count as well? The fact that it is the only time we can calculate that it will ever happen is pretty significant, right? That leaves the Day of Atonement (Great Tribulation and return of Jesus Christ the King?) and the Feast of Tabernacles (the seventh millennium?) Which would infer that we are in it now; and with that hypothesis also goes the possibility that the seals and/or the-5th trumpet could occur prior to the AoD. |
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Post by mike on Dec 12, 2019 6:38:11 GMT -6
stormyknight I see three questions asked here: 1. when will the temple be thrown down? 2. what will be the sign of your coming 3. and the end of the age [the way this is worded could it mean 'what will be the sign of your coming and what will be the sign of the end of the age'. Since the conjunction AND (kai-and, even, also) is there it could also be read that way but I dont think it makes the question materially different BUT Jesus answers could] I find the responses most interesting (like something Jesus said wasnt  ) See that no one deceives you, no one leads you astray, follow no one but me! Again here He doesnt necessarily answer any of the three questions IMO but issues a warning and goes on: Seems to me that he answers the third question first 'the end is not yet' and gives warning signs (to which we are watching ever so closely). But is He? Is He referring to the end of the world as the disciples asked or the end of the temple (and the sacrifices) Did He jump back to question 1 here? I think so. He was answering them directly and we know that most of the early church disciples and apostles were martyred. If we look at Mark 13:3 we see it was only 4 of them (Peter, James, John & Andrew). Could this verse be applied to end times? Possible, but I see it as Him warning those 4 that He was speaking to directly. Of course they would tell other of this if not immediately sometime soon. He does not say to them 'tell no one' as He often did. I agree that the verses about nation against nation and famines and earthquakes have been happening for 2000 years. But there is an interesting take on earthquakes that I read previously was in Bible Hub - Barnes Notes - (just went and read most of his notes...which mine mirror. Well my mirror is quite dirty and I recommend his notes over mine. Might as well just stop here since his are far more thorough) " Earthquakes - In prophetic language, earthquakes sometimes mean political commotions. Literally, they are tremors or shakings of the earth, often shaking cities and towns to ruin. The earth opens, and houses and people sink indiscriminately to destruction." <-- could the earth be quaking any more than it is now! So is this one of those dual prophecies? Was He speaking of the temple destruction in 70 AD or something else, end times perhaps? Some think the abomination was when the temple was destroyed. It was desecrated by Titus and the Romans even with pigs blood on the altar. Is that it? Possible but the debate (in my mind) is that this happened 40 years after the ultimate and final sacrifice, so...the debate rolls on  BUT Stormy if the answer to 'pray that your flight be not in the winter or on the Sabbath' why would that affect us in todays world? If our flight is to flee from physical harm then the rapture, the removal/catching up to be with Him would be sufficient enough to save. Does this mean: He was speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem or the end times? (rhetorical) However when we look at the rest of it 'the beginning of the world until now and never will be' can mean two things: 1. there is a time of greater destruction to come (even greater than 70AD) 2. 70AD was the greatest of all time - were there more killed there than the holocaust? Perhaps on a percentage of population, yes but not in total quantity. Was He being specific to Jerusalem only or worldwide? I dont think we can say for certain. Again we do not know for a certainty that He was speaking of the end of the world. The questions posed 1, 2, 3 above are not answered in like manner, rather the answers are weaved within the questions speaking perhaps to one and the other, both concurrently or one, the other and some concurrent. UGH! My head hurts
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Post by stormyknight on Dec 12, 2019 11:22:19 GMT -6
stormyknight I see three questions asked here: 1. when will the temple be thrown down? 2. what will be the sign of your coming 3. and the end of the age [the way this is worded could it mean 'what will be the sign of your coming and what will be the sign of the end of the age'. Since the conjunction AND (kai-and, even, also) is there it could also be read that way but I dont think it makes the question materially different BUT Jesus answers could] I find the responses most interesting (like something Jesus said wasnt ) See that no one deceives you, no one leads you astray, follow no one but me! Again here He doesnt necessarily answer any of the three questions IMO but issues a warning and goes on: Seems to me that he answers the third question first 'the end is not yet' and gives warning signs (to which we are watching ever so closely). But is He? Is He referring to the end of the world as the disciples asked or the end of the temple (and the sacrifices) Did He jump back to question 1 here? I think so. He was answering them directly and we know that most of the early church disciples and apostles were martyred. If we look at Mark 13:3 we see it was only 4 of them (Peter, James, John & Andrew). Could this verse be applied to end times? Possible, but I see it as Him warning those 4 that He was speaking to directly. Of course they would tell other of this if not immediately sometime soon. He does not say to them 'tell no one' as He often did. I agree that the verses about nation against nation and famines and earthquakes have been happening for 2000 years. But there is an interesting take on earthquakes that I read previously was in Bible Hub - Barnes Notes - (just went and read most of his notes...which mine mirror. Well my mirror is quite dirty and I recommend his notes over mine. Might as well just stop here since his are far more thorough) " Earthquakes - In prophetic language, earthquakes sometimes mean political commotions. Literally, they are tremors or shakings of the earth, often shaking cities and towns to ruin. The earth opens, and houses and people sink indiscriminately to destruction." <-- could the earth be quaking any more than it is now! So is this one of those dual prophecies? Was He speaking of the temple destruction in 70 AD or something else, end times perhaps? Some think the abomination was when the temple was destroyed. It was desecrated by Titus and the Romans even with pigs blood on the altar. Is that it? Possible but the debate (in my mind) is that this happened 40 years after the ultimate and final sacrifice, so...the debate rolls on BUT Stormy if the answer to 'pray that your flight be not in the winter or on the Sabbath' why would that affect us in todays world? If our flight is to flee from physical harm then the rapture, the removal/catching up to be with Him would be sufficient enough to save. Does this mean: He was speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem or the end times? (rhetorical) However when we look at the rest of it 'the beginning of the world until now and never will be' can mean two things: 1. there is a time of greater destruction to come (even greater than 70AD) 2. 70AD was the greatest of all time - were there more killed there than the holocaust? Perhaps on a percentage of population, yes but not in total quantity. Was He being specific to Jerusalem only or worldwide? I dont think we can say for certain. Again we do not know for a certainty that He was speaking of the end of the world. The questions posed 1, 2, 3 above are not answered in like manner, rather the answers are weaved within the questions speaking perhaps to one and the other, both concurrently or one, the other and some concurrent. UGH! My head hurts If the disciples are referring to the temple being thrown down by their question, "when will these things be?", I don't see that Jesus answered that question directly. And surely the disciples knew that the "whole world" would include the far east, including china and India, and the far north in Scandinavia, as well as Gaul and the British Isles in the west (to them), which Rome already had their influence in but the Gospel had not yet been preached there. So when the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple took place, they would have known that it wasn't 'the end'.
Also, and this is the part that is nagging at me, when Jesus says, "Pray that your flight be not in winter or on the Sabbath", it's after He warned of the AoD being set up AND directly before He stated that it would be a time of tribulation "such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." So we would know that He doesn't mean the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. because we have seen tribulation in our recent history that I would argue overshadows that event. But the tribulation He is talking about is something only He can put a stop to, i.e. "those days were shortened". Verses 15-30 paint a picture that shows the world getting so chaotic that more people will be believing that it is the end of the world because now they start to say, "here is the Christ", "no, there is the Christ" and then things get very dark, literally! Then the whole world will see the sign of the Son of Man, that resembles lightning, whether they know what it is or not they will 'mourn', like 'Oh No, now what is happening??' But then they, the whole world, "will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
The reason it nags me is because of verses like 13, "But the one who endures to the end will be saved." Endures? Does He mean keep our faith to the end? Because if we have faith in Jesus Christ we are saved, right? Does this mean we will go through the tribulation? I hope not. Or is this pointed to those who repent during the tribulation, that they don't get to get raptured and have to endure till He gets here? I believe we are between verses 14 and 15. We are waiting for the AoD to be set up. I understand that the Restrainer must be taken out of the way first which I understand to be the Holy Spirit, but whether or not the rapture happens simultaneously or is the actual rapture event, I don't know. I think it is, though. How else would He get Israel to become jealous. There are so many elements when trying to see the big picture.
To answer your 'pray that your flight be not in the winter or on the Sabbath' question, mike, I feeling the pressure myself of what that statement forebodes. Here it is the middle of December and my oldest daughter, who is living with us, is just about to give birth any day now. I hope the reason God seems to be keeping us out here 30 miles in the country is to keep us safe. But if a storm comes up and we lose electricity, it'll be tough going, and we've done it before. But if the U.S. falls into chaotic turmoil, like say Venezuela, I/we will have to rely solely on Jesus (as I should be anyway) to see us through. For the record, I do believe that statement, "when you see the AoD set up..." is meant for those living in Jerusalem, but any Christian throughout the world would know what it portends. |
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Matthew 24
Dec 12, 2019 17:40:26 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by mike on Dec 12, 2019 17:40:26 GMT -6
Stormy - HUGE what if. What if your current thinking, regarding timing of events is not accurate?
What if there is no "pre-trib" rapture? Im not trying to open this for debate on that topic and derail the thread. Just wondered if you had considered that?
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Post by Natalie on Dec 12, 2019 19:50:45 GMT -6
stormyknight said I think that 9-13 are directed to those during the Time of Jacob's Trouble (I am using that title now because there is less confusion on tribulations vs Tribulation). vs 8 states "All these are but the beginning of the birth pains." Those things mentioned before vs 8. I believe that we will see the things in vs 6-7 (and we are). vs 9 begins "Then..." When? after the birth pains. That's when the labor begins = Jacob's Trouble. The labor to bring forth a believing Israel. Christians of this time period will be put to death; hatred, false teaching, and lawlessness will know no bounds because the Beast and the False Prophet with his Harlot will be running things. But those that keep the faith (like the virgins with their oil) will be saved when the Bride and Bridegroom return for the wedding feast. They may die first though. I believe that Rev 14:6 addresses Matt 24:14 and the preaching of the gospel throughout the whole world. And then the end. Jesus returns to reign for 1000 years!
We do not have to endure anything in order to be saved. That would be adding works to salvation. Upon belief we are sealed until the day of redemption (our death or the rapture).
(I know there is some debate on whether Christians during that time will have the indwelling of the Spirit or not. But salvation has always been by faith alone. So, I believe that Christ will help those who are true believers to endure. He will make sure they have the oil in their lamps that they need to make it to the end.)
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Post by Natalie on Dec 12, 2019 20:54:15 GMT -6
I have been looking over Luke's account...(specifically 21:12-18) He does tell the disciples that they will be persecuted, delivered up to synagogues and prisons, and kings and governors, turned over to them by parents, siblings, and friends. And by their endurance they will gain their lives. But, we know that almost all of them were martyred. But they kept the faith...lost their earthly lives for His sake and began their eternal lives. So, it's possible that Matt 24:9 is also about the disciples being persecuted and killed. But if we have to endure to the end, it will be Christ working in us. Phil 1:6 "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." It's not anything we do. (But, I still tend to think that the Matthew passage is speaking of Trib Saints)
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Matthew 24
Dec 12, 2019 21:06:15 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by mike on Dec 12, 2019 21:06:15 GMT -6
Gary wrote an article someplace about the difference between Luke and Matthews account but i cant locate it. Basically Matthew was for them at that point in time and Luke was to us
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Post by boraddict on Dec 13, 2019 8:47:32 GMT -6
If Matt. 24 is chronological then the order of events would be something like:
Matt. 24:4-5, don't be deceived
Matt. 24:6-8, wars, famine, pestilences, and earthquakes are the beginning of sorrows
Matt. 24:9-12, iniquity abounds and many will be deceived
Matt. 24:13-14, endure to "the end" and be saved; the gospel is preached unto all the world and then "the end" comes
Matt. 24:15-51, then beginning at Verse 15 "the end" is expanded upon.
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Post by stormyknight on Dec 13, 2019 14:20:22 GMT -6
I don't disagree with what you all are saying. And mike , the no pretrib rapture thing is a question in my mind. Natalie , I do know we don't have to do anything other than believe to be saved. I think that verse is meaning 'saved alive' as in survived the calamitous times. I, for one, am completely confident in my salvation. I may only get to be a doorman or a janitor when it comes to what jobs He has for us in Heaven, but I know I'll be there. (or rather, here, if your are reading this venge)
Luke's account is a bit different in that Jesus does foretell the destruction of Jerusalem in verses 20-24. But in verse 25 of chapter 21 we are brought to the present. There is no mention of the AoD and in Matthew, the phrase, "pray that your flight be not in winter or on the Sabbath." comes after that. So that phrase tells me that the coming of the Son of Man is what know one knows the hour or the day of because, I think, it depends on the will of the leaders in power (and of course, their bending to the will of the evil princes). When the button gets pushed, so to speak. I know I said global thermonuclear war in my previous post and I hope it doesn't come to that, but we have them and I wouldn't doubt for a millisecond that the devil will do whatever he can to make sure we try to use them. We take scripture piece by piece, as we should, but there is also some clarity to be found in taking a whole chapter or several chapters together, to see a bigger picture.
If I may suggest, try reading the chapter straight through as if your best friend was warning you about something. I mean, I think Jesus would appreciate us thinking of Him as our best friend, because there is a closeness, or confident warmth and trust in a best friend's voice. "Hey, Stormy, it's going to start out like this and there are certain things that will happen because Man is like that, but you're going to see things escalate beyond reason, that's just the beginning of the end. BUT, when you see X, then look out, don't look back, get the heck outta there, because it's reeeaallly gonna get bad. Don't listen to those people shouting that they have the answers because they don't, I do. Then, things are going to get plunged into darkness and that's when I have to step in and stop it or you and everyone on the Earth will die and I'm not going to let that happen."
I guess what I'm wrestling with is that I shouldn't necessarily be looking for the day we are raptured but rather watching the enemies movements and be ready when the hammer falls. Jesus has got this.
"For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God." Eph. 3:14-19
I've been working on this post all day to get my meaning across (It's really slow at work today). I hope I accomplished something. Jesus will help us figure this all out!
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Post by yardstick on Dec 13, 2019 22:19:42 GMT -6
Have you considered the possibility that the 'elect' in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are the 144,000?
The 144k are sealed at Rev 7, but we do not see them again until Rev 14, when they are standing on the Mountain that Jesus comes back on.
We can infer from Rev 12 that the Woman has more than one offspring:
Jesus (the Head),
the Body of Christ (pre-trib believers),
the Trib saints,
and the 144k.
Christ is out of his reach. the pre-trib believers are harpazo'd with the dead in Christ making them out of reach too.
The AC cannot make war against the Woman (righteous Israel who birthed Christianity and Christ - all the part of Israel who were active believers prior to the formulation of the early church 100AD - apostles, et c, and after- harpazo'd as believers too) - they are also the future 144k (set aside as first-fruits and so cannot be made war against, lest they not survive).
So the only people the AC can make war against are the Trib saints. This would include those jews aka israelis who come to Christ during that time, but who are not the 144k - they must be virgin males per Revelation.
Reference also Jesus' statement about the 'synagogue of satan' - maybe those israelis who think they are saved just because they are jewish, rather than believing on Christ's work, and so make no effort to convert.
We believe those under the altar during the seal judgments are Trib saints. We know they are not the 144k because of the latter half of Rev 7 where it distinguishes what services they will perform, and those services are not the same as the 144k listed at the beginning of Rev 7. Their clothing is different too. And they sing a different song.
We know the AC will overcome the Trib saints. E.g.: kill all of them. We know that in Matt 24 is the AoD command to flee Jerusalem. If the 144k are dispersed throughout the world at or before this time, then the angel of Matt 24 and Mark 13 can certainly gather them up.
If we believe that their job is to witness throughout the world, subsequent to the two witnesses in the first half of the Trib - killed at the AoD - they cannot do this if they are in hiding.
Believers during this time also cannot be overcome if they are in hiding. Just because the 144k are witnessing, does not mean that people will repent. In fact, if they are doing so during the Great Trib, then I suspect that after the mark is taken, no one who takes it will repent. As an aside, the answer to the question posed in another thread about whether people will be around who are not believers during the millennium is answered by inference: if the time is shortened or no flesh would survive, and the 144k and believers are spared the wrath or are martyred, then the only people left on the earth at the end of the Great Trib who survived the Great Trib must be unbelievers.
We know that an angel was sent in Matt 24 and Mark 13 to gather the elect from the 4 corners of the earth. We know that the Trib saints have to be all dead prior to the second coming, and the time at which this angel is sent out. When the angel is sent, and gathers the 144k, he brings them back to Mount of Olives to meet Jesus (not sure about the timing of this part). We can infer from the Rev 14 passage that they are present with him, but no passage says how long Jesus stands there. There is no passage that explicitly states how long it was between the time the angel went forth and the moment Jesus' feet touched the mountain. No passage describes the time it takes to award these people with the raiment they are described as wearing in Rev 14. Instantaneously is certainly possible.
There are two reapings given in Rev 14: the first is the wheat, and the second the tares. The wheat could be the Trib saints. The Tares get the cup of wrath. The wheat part matches up with the altar vision and the AC overcoming the saints starting at the AoD. The wheat reaping occurs first, there appears to be some gap of time before the Tares are reaped.
BTW, there is a possibility that there may be some trib saints who survive the entire Tribulation, since there is a blessing given in Daniel for those who survive the 1335 days. This could be those trib saints who escape martyrdom, and thus may be those who are gathered by the angel, rather than the 144k. Or it could be a combination of all of them.
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Post by boraddict on Dec 14, 2019 21:38:38 GMT -6
So, what is "the end" as referenced in Matt. 24:13-14?
Perhaps "the end" is the last 7 years (the tribulation), or the last 3.5 years (great tribulation). At any rate, Matt. 24:13-15 seems to say that "the end" starts with the abomination of desolation.
When does the abomination of desolation occur? At the beginning of the last 7 years, or perhaps at the beginning of the last 3.5 years?
Does anyone have an answer to these questions?
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Post by yardstick on Dec 16, 2019 2:28:25 GMT -6
So, what is "the end" as referenced in Matt. 24:13-14? Perhaps "the end" is the last 7 years (the tribulation), or the last 3.5 years (great tribulation). At any rate, Matt. 24:13-15 seems to say that "the end" starts with the abomination of desolation. When does the abomination of desolation occur? At the beginning of the last 7 years, or perhaps at the beginning of the last 3.5 years? Does anyone have an answer to these questions? The end of the age: Matt 24:3 Matt 25:6 Matt 24:14 The AoD reference occurs in vs 15. Per Daniel 9:27, there is a 7 year period. It may be that Rev 12 defines the first half - prior to the AoD, which occurs chronologically in that chapter at the point the dragon pursues the woman. It may be that he begins this pursuit by sacking Jerusalem. This would include the AoD - see Matt 24:15-18. There are two references to the woman being pursued in Rev 12. One is in verse 6. But then the perspective changes, to show parallel events in verses 7-14. These are possibly reiterations of Verses 1-6; or are concurrently transpiring. |
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Post by stormyknight on Dec 16, 2019 15:54:41 GMT -6
Which would infer that we are in it now; and with that hypothesis also goes the possibility that the seals and/or the-5th trumpet could occur prior to the AoD. I don't know about the trumpets and bowls. I sometimes think they are simultaneous.
I am of the mind that the seals have been occurring for the last 2000 years, Matt. 24:4-8. Or they were opened when Jesus returned to Heaven and as He was opening them, the narrative is what was happening on the earth. Not that opening a seal made the event happen, just that a seal was opened and X was taking place.
since you brought it up, yardstick, for those who are more calendar minded, is it possible to fine tune what we know so far by adding the knowledge about the metonic cycle, in that 1260 days is 42 months, but 1290 days is 43 months or 3 1/2 years plus a leap month and 1335 days is 3 1/2 years with a leap month plus two weeks. So is it possible to find a seven year period with a leap month in the first half and a leap month plus 2 weeeks in the second half or am I all wet?
The 1260 days is the time that the two witnesses do their thing as per Rev. 11:3 and the time the woman is 'nourished' as per Rev. 12:6, but the 1290 days is the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the AoD is set up till...?? or is it from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished until the AoD is set up? Are there any discrepancies in the translations? Is the 1290 days and the 1335 day simultaneous? Just 3 1/2 years plus a leap month and then blessed is he/she who waits another 45 days?
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Post by yardstick on Dec 16, 2019 21:00:35 GMT -6
Which would infer that we are in it now; and with that hypothesis also goes the possibility that the seals and/or the-5th trumpet could occur prior to the AoD. I don't know about the trumpets and bowls. I sometimes think they are simultaneous.
I am of the mind that the seals have been occurring for the last 2000 years, Matt. 24:4-8. Or they were opened when Jesus returned to Heaven and as He was opening them, the narrative is what was happening on the earth. Not that opening a seal made the event happen, just that a seal was opened and X was taking place.
since you brought it up, yardstick, for those who are more calendar minded, is it possible to fine tune what we know so far by adding the knowledge about the metonic cycle, in that 1260 days is 42 months, but 1290 days is 43 months or 3 1/2 years plus a leap month and 1335 days is 3 1/2 years with a leap month plus two weeks. So is it possible to find a seven year period with a leap month in the first half and a leap month plus 2 weeeks in the second half or am I all wet?
The 1260 days is the time that the two witnesses do their thing as per Rev. 11:3 and the time the woman is 'nourished' as per Rev. 12:6, but the 1290 days is the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the AoD is set up till...?? or is it from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished until the AoD is set up? Are there any discrepancies in the translations? Is the 1290 days and the 1335 day simultaneous? Just 3 1/2 years plus a leap month and then blessed is he/she who waits another 45 days?
These may be mutually exclusive, or contradictory positions, if the following is true: 1. The trumpets/bowls/seals are all different perspectives of the same events. This would make them concurrent. If this point is true, then the trumpets and bowls should have been going on for the last 2000 years also. 2. If the seals have been occurring for the last 2000 years, and the bowls and trumpets are chronologically subsequent rather than concurrent with the seals; then the trumpets/bowls cannot be simultaneous/concurrent. Not sure how Matt 24:4-8 fits with the seals from your point above. If the seals have been opened, then I would ask: who was the white horseman? Who the red? Who the black; and who the Green ('pale' translated from 'chloro' which is the root for 'chlorine', a pale green gas, - see wikipedia pic - and noting that people would know that there is no such thing as a green horse)? I dont disagree with you on the metonic cycle. I think that there are one or two 7 year periods in 2021-2035 somewhere. However, the metonic cycle would argue against the seals already having been opened, since (if I understand correctly) it would bookend a 7 year period. I would point out that 1260 days fits inside 1290 days, and 'silence in heaven about a half hour' using the weeks-of-years calculation from Daniel, gives about 15 days. There is a logic to the two witnesses picking the 144k from an earthly viewpoint, while spiritually they are sealed. Note the Rev passage does not say who does the sealing. We presume it is the Holy Spirit, right? Who is the 'we'? Himself and the four angels holding back the winds? Interestingly enough, I cannot say with 100% certainty that the two witnesses arent in the latter half of the trib, because These things are all events that occur during the trumpet and bowl judgments. In addition, the seventh trumpet announcing ownership of the earth occurs directly after. To take ownership generally requires one to physically go to the place one is taking ownership of! This would of course hint that the trumpets and bowls are all occurring simultaneously, and that they are different views of the same thing. I read the 1290 days in two ways: 1. It is the time between the start of the Trib and the AoD 2. It is the time between the AoD and the end of the Great Trib. It depends on how you read the first clause in Dan 12:11: Contextually, the time referred to could be pointing to Dan 12:6 Which things? The things described in Dan 12:7 When will their power be broken? At the AoD, presumably, when the gentiles start to trample the city for 42 months (the last 1260 days). The harpazo occurs mid-trib possibly in this scenario, per Daniel 12:1 (also part of 'these things'), just before or at the AoD. If this is the case, then the 1290 days occurs at the beginning of the Trib; the harpazo and/or AoD at 1260 of those days; 1260 days for the woman to hide in the wilderness (after the 1290 - 30 days to flee), before the angel gathers the 144k from the four corners of the earth; and the 1335 days total in the latter half of the Trib. It could also be the other way around for the Great Trib: 1260 before Jesus returns, and 1335-1290 to gather the 144k (blessed are they...), since there is no time elapse explained for how long it will take for the angel to do so. |
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