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Post by Natalie on Aug 27, 2019 13:57:41 GMT -6
We are not appointed to wrath; therefore, there is a period of time where we will not be here. It's my understanding that a post-trib view does not see it that way. I think he is looking for scriptural evidence that suggests what you said. If you believe that the entire duration of the end times is wrath, can you demonstrate that? I believe that to be his argument. Pre TB believes the wrath starts at the first seal. What scripture backs up that belief? I guess I was thinking he just wanted to disprove a post-trib view, which is what I was trying to point out. I am not trying to prove pre-trib over one of the other options. If the purpose of the thread is to disprove a post-trib view then where the other views agree should disprove it. Where I feel the others agree is that the church is not here for a portion of time, they may disagree on when the church leaves, but I think they would agree that we are definitely not here for God's wrath. Does that clarify anything or make it more muddy? I'm not feeling the greatest today and probably should go take a nap. 
1 Thes 5:9-10 Rev 6:16-17
Rev 3:10
A post-trib view would seem to have us go through the wrath, but I think Scripture says otherwise.
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Post by mike on Aug 27, 2019 16:40:04 GMT -6
Natalie, Venge - the way I read it, we are possibly in the time of Tribulation now and the Great Tribulation is on the way.
God can protect His people. This great but failing country (and hemisphere for the most part) doesn't see what those in China, Iran, other middle east countries into Africa are seeing. I bet if you ask them we are certainly in some type of tribulation right now. We are shielded from much of it due to the Oceans and news control of information
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Post by Natalie on Aug 27, 2019 17:33:52 GMT -6
That's how I read it, too. But does the Bible say we go through the Great Tribulation? Is the rapture after that? Is a post-trib rapture theory compatible with what Scripture says?
Even though I am still pre-trib at this point, a person could propose the theory that we are in the Tribulation period but we will be gone before the time God's wrath is poured out (the Great Tribulation), and I would say that is a possibility. It makes sense with the Scripture I posted above. But to say the rapture is post-trib is where I disagree.
Does that clarify things?
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 27, 2019 21:38:26 GMT -6
I am going to start with a big amen to this statement, having spent time in another thread in this forum as of late...
I think that most that come here are all honestly trying to seek the truth, and the points many bring here are worth considering, even if against a status quo of thinking. I am a witness to this. The more a delve into scripture the more it modifies my view, like a clay pot on a potter's wheel. The Clay is the same clay, but it has been a vase, then a bowl, then a coffee cup, and ya get the picture
Let me be sure I understand the exercise here. We are trying to prove thru scripture AGAINST a post-trib rapture theory, right?
I want to talk about this assumption. I believe there are two main interpretations to consider for the B of Rev: Literal Physical and Literal Spiritual. Literal physical is easy to understand as earthly physical things. Like the letters to the churches... But the Literal Spiritual to me is something way more involved. It is a LITERAL ACTUAL SPIRITUAL (heaven/4th dimension etc) vision that looks like what it says ONLY from the view being in the Spirit and is not the same as what is seen on earth. It may be a shadow hiding the full view of a physical earthly thing. It can be an exact spiritual thing representing an exact earthly thing. Or it can be on seemingly opposite thing (mirror) of what is being shown via a particular SPIRITAUL vision.
THIS is where I think you are saying that "to make an exact road map would otherwise interfere with freedom of choice." I would like to add, to make an exact road map would not teach us how to Hear our Lord on a matter but rather keep us babes fed milk.
And I agree with you on this:
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Post by boraddict on Aug 27, 2019 22:03:51 GMT -6
We have 22 years to go. I know that this information is heartbreaking but: Please stop that crying!  What is the timeline you have that supports this? Have you posted it someplace else before? If so can you link it here, I am curious. If not can you start a thread so it can be reviewed? Mike, that is so funny! Sometimes I make myself laugh. Okay, I will start a new thread but there is not much to the theory. |
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mela
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Post by mela on Aug 27, 2019 23:19:15 GMT -6
Neural, thank you for posting this theory. I have read posts on the discussion board for about a year an 1/2 but never registered. I guess today is the day. I also have often wondered if the great sign from Sept 23, 2017, was the start of the tribulation. When nothing "happened" on that great day and surrounding the events just following it, I actually began to question it almost immediately. I have honestly struggled with removing my "pre-trib" glasses, but the more and more things that I see happening in the world that I believe could be interpreted as a fulfillment of Bible prophecy if we remove our pre-conceived filters of what we have been taught in our churches for so long, the more I realize that it is highly possible that we are likely already in the tribulation and that what our vision of what the tribulation would be is very different. For those that struggle with this concept, I encourage you to review the character of our Heavenly Father and how He had brought His people through tribulation in the past. Exodus 11 - The final curse upon Pharaoh, and God's people (Israel) were spared (Passover). Daniel 3:20-27 - Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed–nego - They were sent into the fiery furnace, and the Lord was with them and protected them. Daniel 6:11-22 - Daniel - The Lord protected Daniel in the Lions Den The Story of David & Saul is fascinating, and we know that the Lord intended for David to be King. This site covers several passages on this relationship. David suffered much tribulation at the hands of Saul. While we think of David as one person, there were many that followed him that would have been affected by him as well. www.nateholdridge.com/blog/106Also, if you begin to think that this is just a "dispensational" thing (Old Testament vs. New Testament), I would beg to differ on that theory as well. The "church" since the time of Christ has bene persecuted and gone through "tribulation", and Jesus even warned us of this. Many of Paul's books are written from prison. All of the Apostles were put in jail or detained for their faith and most were killed as well. When Revelation was written, John was on the island of Patmos, which was used at that time as some kind of prison camp. I could list many more examples, the Old and New Testament are riddled with them. The point here is that it is highly possible for those that believe to be protected from God's wrath. That said, I have no fear of dying either if we are not protected from everything (such as natural disasters). I will be happy to see Jesus, and if the Lord deems that it is my time, then great, I am not about to argue. I know where I am going, however it is that the Lord chooses to remove my spirit from my body. |
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Post by venge on Aug 28, 2019 8:09:27 GMT -6
That's how I read it, too. But does the Bible say we go through the Great Tribulation? Is the rapture after that? Is a post-trib rapture theory compatible with what Scripture says? Even though I am still pre-trib at this point, a person could propose the theory that we are in the Tribulation period but we will be gone before the time God's wrath is poured out (the Great Tribulation), and I would say that is a possibility. It makes sense with the Scripture I posted above. But to say the rapture is post-trib is where I disagree. Does that clarify things? Wow Natalie! I didn’t see that coming. In all seriousness, I didn’t. (That you are opened to the possibility, if demonstrated) The object of study should be: 1. What does God, not man, determine as wrath. 2. When does the Day of the Lord begin. 3. When does our removal from wrath begin Use only scripture without clinging onto any eschatological theories. My opinion on this, all of it can be answered from God’s word. The answers to those questions exist. |
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Post by Natalie on Aug 28, 2019 9:41:23 GMT -6
That's how I read it, too. But does the Bible say we go through the Great Tribulation? Is the rapture after that? Is a post-trib rapture theory compatible with what Scripture says? Even though I am still pre-trib at this point, a person could propose the theory that we are in the Tribulation period but we will be gone before the time God's wrath is poured out (the Great Tribulation), and I would say that is a possibility. It makes sense with the Scripture I posted above. But to say the rapture is post-trib is where I disagree. Does that clarify things? Wow Natalie! I didn’t see that coming. In all seriousness, I didn’t. (That you are opened to the possibility, if demonstrated) The object of study should be: 1. What does God, not man, determine as wrath. 2. When does the Day of the Lord begin. 3. When does our removal from wrath begin Use only scripture without clinging onto any eschatological theories. My opinion on this, all of it can be answered from God’s word. The answers to those questions exist. Just because I would consider it a possibility doesn't mean I would embrace it. 
But I am trying to do what you just mentioned: use Scripture without eschatological theories.
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Post by venge on Aug 28, 2019 13:18:52 GMT -6
Wow Natalie! I didn’t see that coming. In all seriousness, I didn’t. (That you are opened to the possibility, if demonstrated) The object of study should be: 1. What does God, not man, determine as wrath. 2. When does the Day of the Lord begin. 3. When does our removal from wrath begin Use only scripture without clinging onto any eschatological theories. My opinion on this, all of it can be answered from God’s word. The answers to those questions exist. Just because I would consider it a possibility doesn't mean I would embrace it.
But I am trying to do what you just mentioned: use Scripture without eschatological theories.
Examples: Isaiah 13:9-10, 13 The DotL (Day of the Lord) identified as wrath and anger in verse 9. The DotL is identified as a time which: 1. Stars and constellations do not shine (loss of light) 2. The Sun is darkened (also loss of light) 3. The moon is darkened (loss of light) Notice in verse 13 that shaking the heavens (the loss of light in the 3 points above) demonstrates utter darkness over the earth. It is a cause and effect. The cause being the heavens are shaken out of place and therefore it causes the earth to do so as well. And again, wrath and anger is shown in verse 13 to be the reason for the shaking. Based upon only these verse in Isaiah 13 above, I would conclude that the DotL is a day of wrath and that the signs given in v. 10 be proved against other scripture to look for a correlation. If one exists, deductive logic would prove the end result. If the DotL requires or always comes with the darkening of the heavens by their loss of light, I would conclude that the heavens loss of light demonstrates a timetable placement for the proximity of the event. For the Lord says the DotL cometh but is it here yet? To me, that would imply the signs as precursor to the DotL, but not the actual day of reckoning.
What of Joel 3:13-15
There are a couple queues here. God says the DotL is "near" in the valley of decision which is the place of judgment or when he goes to judge the land. Verse 15 shows the heavens darkened and interestingly, verse 13 mentiones 2 points.
1. To harvest the earth
2. the press is mentioned; the winepress describing the grapes of wrath.
For us to prove a post tribulation theory is wrong, we need to show the DotL happens anytime before the end. If the DotL happens before the end, then believers would go through God's wrath and the rapture would have to come earlier. But based upon these 2 books, I myself struggle. In Isaiah 13, the DotL identifies with the 6th seal.
The lack of light from the sun, the moon and the stars does have correlation to Isaiah 13. But these doesnt mean the DotL is at the 6th seal. If there was an agreement on this, one could say it shows that the DotL is near this time. Whether forward or backward in time I do not know. Does the loss of heavenly light come first or come with the DotL? Whether first or with, it appears to be near it. What of Joel 3? Joel 3 describes Rev 14:15-18
Verse 15-16 show the earth being harvested.
Verses 17-18 show the grapes of wrath
What is interesting about this is that Rev 14 chronologically falls as:
1. 144k sealed
2. Everlasting gospel preached
3. Mystery Babylon falls
4. Mark of the Beast
5. Harvest of the earth
6. Grapes of wrath
We can probably agree the grapes of wrath come with the DotL. So the rapture must precede that.
The 6th seal demonstrates the loss of heavenly light and darkness encompassing the world. It comes before the 144k if we take that chronological approach as some do.
So then we would have the following:
1. 6th seal loss of heavenly lights.
2. 144k sealed
3. Everlasting gospel preached
4. Mystery Babylon falls
5. Mark of the Beast
6. Harvest of the earth
7. Grapes of wrath
The loss of light (#1) are near the DotL but so is the harvest of the earth in #6. There is a giant amount of info in between. Can the DotL expand farther, prior to the 6th seal? It doesn't seem to expand past the harvest as the grapes of wrath show the destruction of God's enemies. Does the DotL inhabit the entire time frame from point 1 to point 6? I'd say no. The DotL is still "near" point 6, but doesn't seem to have happened yet. More scripture needs to be added. |
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neural
Truth Seeker
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Post by neural on Aug 28, 2019 13:27:53 GMT -6
This is going to be a long thread, and I will try and respond to posts individually to save sanity. to start... @reepicheep, The illustration you provided is a very good example of how things like pre-trib/post-trib get going. A very valid point. However, I would also point out that the same illustration, and others similar to it, are all demonstrations also that there is only one truth. This goes back to the other thread I posted about the assault on truth that is happening today. I am reminded of a cartoon where two people are standing on the opposite sides of a number written on the ground. One claims it is a six, the other claims it is a nine. This is another illustration of "perspective", however like others it is a direct attempt by the devil to chip away at the meaning of "truth". The "truth" in both images, is that the perspective of the individual person is based on a lack of information. The two people in the comic I mentioned do not have a foundation or reference point. If you look at a six painted on the ground, and you don't know which direction it was intended to be viewed from, you might decide it is a nine, when the author intended it to be a 6. The truth is simply the truth. Perspective is one persons understanding of the information they are given about the truth, but a persons perspective or understanding does not automatically equal the truth. This is why I tried my best to state my beliefs/opinions regarding the tribulation as a theory. I am not trying to suggest that an object casting a shadow (to use your illustration again) is a circle or a square, I'm trying to project light from a different angle to see if we can determine the shape of the object itself, and not just define the shadow from our individual perspectives. |
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neural
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Posts: 113
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Post by neural on Aug 28, 2019 13:31:13 GMT -6
boraddict, That is certainly a valid perspective, based on it being exactly 2000 years past the crucifixion of Jesus, and it is something I have considered and not rejected outright.
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neural
Truth Seeker
Posts: 113
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Post by neural on Aug 28, 2019 14:51:49 GMT -6
I struggle to find a way to clearly and cleanly lay out 20+ years of study. This is not to say that I've studied my proposed perspective for 20 years, but that I've been seeking the truth for over 20 years. The root of my belief in what I have written in my theory is not prophecy so much as it is Grace seasoned with a little common sense.
I am more inclined at this point to simply give up, as I could write for days on various parts of how I have come to the point of posing the theory I have written in this thread. It is no easy task to challenge the devils deceptions, nor is it easy to ensure that one's own perspective is not in itself a deception.
The chaos within the body of Christ today could be likened unto an epileptic seizure.
Does anyone remember any more why we are even here? Why this entire universe even exists in the first place?
ALL of this. ALL OF IT is designed and created by God for ONE purpose, and one purpose alone. God wanted to create beings similar to Himself (meaning we are made in His image) that would CHOOSE FREELY to believe in and worship Him.
Nothing has been made ever, in all of history past and all of history to come, that is not designed by Him for Him.
Yet in order for His plan to work, He has to allow free will to be free will. This universe is run under God's rules, but God has *chosen* NOT to interfere with free will. Our entire lives are about our use of that free will, including, most importantly from the individual perspective, choosing whether or not to believe in Him. Faith and belief are decisions we make based on information we are given. Just because a person believes that a chair they are going to sit in will support them, does not mean it will. It is a decision made on the individuals experience, knowledge, and observations, but it is still an act of faith.
Our lives are based entirely around God wanting someone to choose to have faith in Him, but if God wants people to CHOOSE to believe in Him, He cannot do anything that would result in people being *forced* to believe in Him. Being forced or coerced into something violates the rule of free will.
This is why over the past 6000+ years of existence that a large number of the miracles that God has performed (not all) could be categorized by atheists as "coincidence" or "natural occurrences". Because God presents people with indirect evidence of His existence to allow them to *choose* to believe. Only the people of Jesus' day and a limited number of them in the past before Christ saw God in any physical form, and because Jesus took off the mantle of His deity, and became one of us, people barely got a glimpse of God in that respect. Paraphrase: "He who has seen Me, has seen the Father". Jesus was not talking about His physical form. He was just a man, in that respect. Probably had some skin blemishes. Probably skinned his knee as a 4yr old and ran crying to his mother. Moses asked to see the Father. God made it quite clear that doing so would kill him, and covering the cave/depression that Moses was in, God only showed Moses the tail end of His glory, and the way it comes across to me when I read it, it appears that even that nearly killed Moses. So clearly when Jesus said "he who has seen Me has seen the Father" was speaking of something other than His physical presence.
I digress (this happens a lot), the Christophanies aside, God has a long history of revealing Himself to us through indirect means. This is because to directly reveal Himself to us, would go against the plan that He made. The plan for humans to use free will to choose to believe in Him.
In short, God is doing everything He can to stay anonymous and/or avoid jumping down out of the sky and shouting "hey folks! I exist!" because free will would not be free will if He did.
Evidence that can be seen, measured, heard, tested, and other wise validated via our 5 senses directly results in belief decisions that do not involve free will. If someone tells you that a giant Redwood tree sprouted and grew to 200 feet tall in the middle of the road last night, you would not believe it. But if you went outside and saw the tree, touched the tree, smelled the aroma of the bark and it's needles and heard the wind in it's boughs, it would not be your free will that caused you to believe it was there. It would be undeniable, in-your-face evidence that could not be ignored.
And that's just it with the undeniable evidence of God. It's not something as plainly visible to everyone as a tree. Believers see undeniable evidence, because faith results in growth, and God reveals Himself to us as we grow, but it is all rooted in the free will decision to believe in that which we cannot see.
John 20:29 "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
Jesus made it quite clear that Thomas believed because he saw Jesus in person, but then pronounced a blessing upon everyone who believes *without* seeing.
Is it getting through yet? It's all about believing without seeing. There are volumes of books written by secular/atheist authors "dispelling the nonsense" of what believers see as undeniable evidence. It is all about choice. (yes, i'm repeating myself but you have to hit a nail multiple times when attempting to put it into hardwood).
Revelation 16:10-11 "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."
We are taught to believe that verse 11 saying "and blasphemed the God of heaven" is to be interpreted and viewed as the people of the earth calling out to God and saying "we hate you!! you are a jerk!" etc. We're taught the perspective that these people 100% know that God exists, and that they knowingly acknowledge not only His existence, but His deity.
Why would God bother with the bowls/vials then? Why would God not just skip the rest of the judgments? If all the people of the earth believe He exists and have divided themselves up between those who believe and love Him, and those who believe and hate Him, why not just end the program early and come back?
I pose that what is really going on, is that the darkness and sores etc that are spoken of in the various bowls/vials judgments are done to a people who STILL DON'T BELIEVE. The blasphemy it refers to is not people shaking their clenched fist at the sky screaming "curse you God of heaven!!". It's people taking the lords name in vain like they do every day now when something goes wrong. People blaspheme the God of heaven over a mosquito bite these days.
The point here is that even the bowl/vial judgments are poured out on people in a manner that still adheres to the rule of free will. People in these coming days will still be convinced it's climate change, government conspiracy, improper diet, etc. They'll use the Lords name in vain to complain about it, but they will not see it directly as an act of God, because God is giving them yet another chance to choose to believe. To wake up and say "uh guys? you know, this is painful and all, but it also matches exactly what that old book says..."
I know this, again, is another amazingly controversial statement, but if God's Grace is all encompassing, and if salvation is by Grace through Faith, and if salvation is a one time permanent deal, then I think the church in general has grossly misinterpreted how bad the Great Tribulation will be. Frankly, with as much power-hunger and greed there has been in the church over the centuries, it sadly makes a lot of sense as well. People are easily ruled by fear. They will fall in line, and, most importantly, put money in the offering tray. (I could write an entire post about that, but won't do so here, because I get *really* angry).
God has given us the general revelation. so that no man will be able to stand in front of the Great White Throne and say "I didn't know!", but God is also going to remain as anonymous and indirect as possible so that free will as a rule is not violated. He is long suffering, not willing that any should be lost. "any" is an all encompassing word, folks. It doesn't say "for he is long suffering, not willing that any just before the tribulation should be lost, but to bad for them!". The Bible does not say that Christ died "once for all except the people in the tribulation, sucks to be them!".
God is unchanging. His law is unchanging. His love is unchanging. His Grace is unchanging. "..oh, except for that tribulation. That's different". NO IT'S NOT. Let me say it again. GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.
I ask this: Does "it will be as in the days of Noah" and "people will be eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage" sound to you like a world that in large majority believes in and hates God, and has just undergone the 7 trumpet and 7 bowl/vials judgments as most preachers rain down upon their congregations from the pulpits? Does "two will be working in the field, one will be taken and one will be left" sound like a world divided into people who worship the anti-Christ and people who worship God, where-in the people worshiping the beast will be looking to turn in their Christian friends and family members for some earthly token of gratitude from the beast? The picture Jesus paints there is not one of some apocalyptic hell run by a guy sitting in the third temple with red skin, horns and smoke and fire billowing forth while he rallies his followers to battle against a God who has yet to physically appear in the sky.
Have you ever asked yourself who the armies of the world are coming up against? It will be the ultimate test of faith for the followers of the beast when Armageddon comes.
"So.. who exactly are we here to fight?"
"sarge already told us this bro, we're here to fight Jesus!"
"well, yes, that's what he said, but.. where is this Jesus guy?"
It's not like Jesus is going to descend from heaven on that day and just stand there in the clouds and wait for the armies to form.
How do you fight God, when you can't even see Him? How do you fight Jesus when the sky hasn't rolled back like a scroll and revealed Him? Do you go swinging your sword randomly? Do you fire rockets into the air and hope they hit something before falling back to the ground on your own troops? Do you dig a hole deep into the ground and blow God up with dynamite?
I believe that the final battle is going to be more about Israel and God's people, than it is about Jesus Himself.
I believe that because of free will, and because of God's all encompassing Grace, that people will be given every last second possible to choose to believe in Him, and that it is Matthew 24:30 that refers to the first time that the rule of free will will be set aside. It will be those few precious seconds just before then, that will be the last chance anyone has to choose to believe in God, and believe that Jesus died for their sins, that they may be saved by Gods Grace.
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"
That is going to be a very, *very* bad day for a lot of people, and the judgment that comes with it will be every bit as brutal as we've been taught. There may be a lot of judgments in Revelation and other scripture which have potentially been blown out of proportion or misinterpreted, but the wine-press of the Wrath of God, the judgement upon the world when Jesus stands up and says "enough!" and comes down from heaven and sets His foot on the Mount of Olives, when God decides that free will is no longer an option or needed, that day will truly be the day God will reveal Himself in an absolute and undeniable manner.
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Post by mike on Aug 28, 2019 15:29:13 GMT -6
I like it neural. Incomplete revelation. Wrong vantage point. Preconceived notions blocking the way and many other distortions cloud the truth. We need to share Christ crucified, rose again and ascended for each of us. We acknowledge that or don't, simple |
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Post by Natalie on Aug 28, 2019 15:30:36 GMT -6
There is a lot there. Lots of possibilities to think about. I just want to ask one thing. I think they will know they are going to fight against Jesus. One thought is that the Jews are hidden at what we now call the area of Petra. It's called Bozrah in the Bible. Bozrah means "sheep fold". Micah 2:12 "I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob; I will gather the remnant of Israel; I will set them together like a sheep in a fold, like a flock in its pasture, a noisy multitude of men. He who opens the breach goes up before them; they break through and pass the gate, going out by it. Their King passes on before them, the Lord at their head." Then combine that with Isaiah 34:6 "...for the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah, a great slaughter in the land of Edom." and with 63:1 "Who is this who comes from Edom, in crimsoned garments from Bozrah, he who is splendid in His apparel, marching in the greatness of His strength? 'It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save.' and I won't copy down verses 2-6 but it goes on to describe the defeat of the enemies that have gathered.
ETA: But, upon further thought, maybe you are right and they don't know Jesus is there. I guess I assume it will be obvious. But maybe they just gather to destroy Israel, not knowing their King is with them.
sorry, one more edit ... "And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against Him who was sitting on the horse and against His army." (Rev 19:19) I think it will be obvious who He is, with an army all in white. Maybe???
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Post by Natalie on Aug 28, 2019 19:28:35 GMT -6
neural , I did want to thank you for your post. As I have read through it again, I agree with a lot of it, or at least agree it's a possibility. I definitely agree that it is and always has been about grace and faith. That's not going to change.
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