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Post by canada on Apr 28, 2019 20:46:53 GMT -6
There are five common systems of interpretation of the Book Of Revelation:
Full Preterism ... Partial Preterism ... Historicism ... Futurism ... Idealism.
I was a futurist for my first ten years of study, but the last thirty I moved to historicism. Not because they have all the answers, but I believe they are closer to the truth, with a minimum of speculation.
It was Sir Isaac Newton that said, we are not to become prophets, but to observe the events as they come to pass.
I get the feeling that "most" here are futurist in their understanding of this book ... what say ye? |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 28, 2019 20:58:40 GMT -6
Just to clarify what each of those are, would you agree with this paragraph from gotquestions? www.gotquestions.org/historicism-historicist.htmlHistoricism is distinguished from other views of eschatology: idealism (the events of Revelation are entirely symbolic of the cosmic struggle between good and evil); preterism (the events of Revelation were fulfilled in AD 70); and futurism (the events of Revelation await a future, end-times fulfillment during the tribulation and beyond). Historicism falls between preterism and futurism in its approach: according to historicism, most of Revelation is symbolic of persons and events in world history. The book of Revelation was prophecy when John wrote it, according to historicists, but most of the book has already been fulfilled in our day. |
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Post by canada on Apr 28, 2019 21:54:41 GMT -6
As you know, all of the views differ somewhat Natalie.
Full preterism is considered heretical by some.
The author left out partial preterism which is very popular today. Futurism is also very popular today.
Historicism was THE interpretation of the reformation for many years and basically taught that the papacy was the beast and the Church of Rome was the great harlot church described in Revelation.
With the finger of prophecy pointing to the Church of Rome, the Jesuits Alcazar and Ribera (and one other) introduced futurism and that was picked up by the protestant teachers John Darby and Scofield and is likely the most popular view today.
One advantage of the futurist is that he can pretty well tell us whatever is “going to come to pass” ... but, until it does, how can he be proven wrong?
As noted in my post, Sir Isaac Newton stated that we are not to become prophets, but to observe events as they come to pass. I believe that the speaking image that dies and yet comes back to life along with the numbered beast, have come to pass, but that is a story for another time.
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Post by boraddict on Apr 28, 2019 23:08:21 GMT -6
It seems that prophecy foretells the future events, so the application of anything other than futurism means you believe that some portion of prophecy has been fulfilled. Thus, a true futurist would believe that all prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. For that reason it would be hard to be a futurist because according to the Savior his atonement was foretold meaning that those prophecies have been fulfilled.
Yes, it seems that futurist is clearly out as a reasonable option since any application of the BofR to the seven churches of Asia have been fulfilled.
However, if we are speaking of the majority but not all prophecy then I would be a futurist with some inclusion of the other systems. I suppose the percentage for the BofR would be something like 99 percent futurist and 1 percent other. A similar percentage would apply to the prophets of the OT.
I suppose there would also be overlapping system applications with some subjects.
It's an interesting science.
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Post by venge on Apr 29, 2019 6:02:38 GMT -6
There are five common systems of interpretation of the Book Of Revelation:
Full Preterism ... Partial Preterism ... Historicism ... Futurism ... Idealism.
I was a futurist for my first ten years of study, but the last thirty I moved to historicism. Not because they have all the answers, but I believe they are closer to the truth, with a minimum of speculation.
It was Sir Isaac Newton that said, we are not to become prophets, but to observe the events as they come to pass.
I get the feeling that "most" here are futurist in their understanding of this book ... what say ye? In relation to only the book of Revelation, the book itself says it is things that happened (past) and things to come (future from John about 96AD). For me, I believe the 5th seal to the last chapter is unfulfilled. I also believe that seals 1-4 may be future. I’m open to understanding those. There are chapters like the sign in heaven and another that I believe is both past and future. But the trumpets and the rapture have never happened. Guess I’m a futurist. I haven’t seen a massive depart from the truth imo. I haven’t seen a city destroyed that could be Mystery Babylon before or in my time period, and wickedness still exists so Christ has t come yet. We have persecution of Jews and Christians. Nope, not fulfilled yet. When since 96AD did we have Armageddon? It’s never recorded. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 29, 2019 6:40:54 GMT -6
I caution that anyone apply a label to themselves as to how they are coming to understand The Book that is about the Revealing of Jesus Christ. Once you pick a label then you unknowingly block the ability to be open to the Lord to show you something that was otherwise not revealed to you before. So I am NONE of those labels. If anything, I am a BoR memorizer. Putting to memory the verses so that as I read the rest of the Bible, more of Revelation begins to unveil. Its not that one needs to understand the passages, but put it to memory, get an idea of the timelines within the chapters, be careful to NOT just follow what others say it means.
It is about the past, what was happening in the present time when John was alive and it is about the future. Since it is about JESUS, it is about Who Was, Who Is and Who Is to Come!
Jesus opened all the Seals because He was found worthy and purchased the whole earth, so the Seals representing HIS ownership/deed, needed to be opened so that His Revealing on Earth (Reign) would begin to commense. IMO we are waiting for the 5th Seal to come to pass.
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Post by kjs on Apr 29, 2019 9:19:59 GMT -6
There are five common systems of interpretation of the Book Of Revelation:
Full Preterism ... Partial Preterism ... Historicism ... Futurism ... Idealism.
I was a futurist for my first ten years of study, but the last thirty I moved to historicism. Not because they have all the answers, but I believe they are closer to the truth, with a minimum of speculation.
It was Sir Isaac Newton that said, we are not to become prophets, but to observe the events as they come to pass.
I get the feeling that "most" here are futurist in their understanding of this book ... what say ye? Going to have to go with barbiosheepgirl on this one ... labeling oneself into such a restrictive system limits your ability to learn.
For example were you aware that Jesuit priest/monks actually created two {Futurism and Preterism} -- simply because they were attempting to discredit Luther's belief (and other well known Reformist) that One of the most influential aspects of the Protestant historicist paradigm was the speculation that the Pope could be the antichrist.
Let's take another look at the "SIGN" that this website (and others) pointed to in September 2017 -- where the Sign indicated in Revelation 12 -- actually came to pass. Yes, many ridicule the Sign and said it is really nothing -- just a simple coincidence.
Then their are others who claim the "WHOLE RETURN of Israel (into a sovereign power) is simply another coincidence.
We have a whole thread talking about Daniel's 70th week (so will not go into detail with it here) except to say Jesus Christ MADE ONE prophecy clearly based upon Daniel's 70th week And since He (Jesus) said it was a future event -- since Israel ceased to exist 37 years later (and until 1948)... it makes that prophecy still outstanding....
Matt. 24:15 "Whenever, therefore, ye may see the abomination of the desolation, that was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place...{YLT}
This appears to be the KEY ... we know for sure that around 37 years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ -- there was no abomination of the desolation in the temple. Then the temple ceased to exist ... (and still does not exist) ... so either Jesus and Daniel are false prophets -- or it is a future event......
I think it is a future event .... and I do feel SOME things in Revelation are Future events (but I am not a futurist -- as defined by the Jesuit brotherhood)..........
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Post by Natalie on Apr 29, 2019 10:51:06 GMT -6
( kjs - Revelation 12  ) I think labels or categories can be a good place to start. In certain instances, they can show what is orthodox and what is heresy. They can show what types of things those who have gone before us have studied and tried to understand. They can help us understand where others are coming from. However, I do agree with those who posted above about not just sticking to that one label. Study things yourself and make your beliefs your own. Maybe you'll agree with everything under a certain label and maybe you will be bits and pieces of others. But hold onto your interpretation of end times prophecy very lightly. We won't know for sure until it comes to pass. Currently, I see Revelation 1 as those things John has seen, Chapter 2-3 as those that are, and 4-22 as the things that are to come because I see chapters 2-3 being personal letters to specific churches but also encompassing the whole of church history. And when the church age is over we will be called Home, like John in 4:1 before Jesus shows him "what must take place after this." I see the "after this" as being after the church age. However, I hold this loosely because I believe that the signs in Rev 12 took place in 2017 and 2018. Could other things have already taken place or in a different order than what I understand? Absolutely. |
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Post by bondservant on Apr 29, 2019 11:19:39 GMT -6
I caution that anyone apply a label to themselves as to how they are coming to understand The Book that is about the Revealing of Jesus Christ. Once you pick a label then you unknowingly block the ability to be open to the Lord to show you something that was otherwise not revealed to you before. So I am NONE of those labels. If anything, I am a BoR memorizer. Putting to memory the verses so that as I read the rest of the Bible, more of Revelation begins to unveil. Its not that one needs to understand the passages, but put it to memory, get an idea of the timelines within the chapters, be careful to NOT just follow what others say it means. It is about the past, what was happening in the present time when John was alive and it is about the future. Since it is about JESUS, it is about Who Was, Who Is and Who Is to Come! Jesus opened all the Seals because He was found worthy and purchased the whole earth, so the Seals representing HIS ownership/deed, needed to be opened so that His Revealing on Earth (Reign) would begin to commense. IMO we are waiting for the 5th Seal to come to pass. I couldn't agree more. I happen to fall into a little of each of those categories but just as I used to hear Dave Reagan of Lamb & Lion Ministries say: "I am not going to stand before God with my 'End of Days Time Line/Map and tell God that I thought it was supposed to happen like this!" The Book of Revelation is a Revelation of Jesus Christ. Only He can reveal Himself to us therefore the rest is only knowledge & not revelation. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 29, 2019 12:15:28 GMT -6
thanks, kjs and bondservant . And to Natalie's point, yes a label tells others a summary of one's position in a tidy, single word. |
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Post by venge on Apr 29, 2019 13:15:12 GMT -6
thanks, kjs and bondservant . And to Natalie's point, yes a label tells others a summary of one's position in a tidy, single word. I am white with sorta red hair. But no, I do not have Gingervitis.  |
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Post by kjs on Apr 29, 2019 13:47:44 GMT -6
thanks, kjs and bondservant . And to Natalie's point, yes a label tells others a summary of one's position in a tidy, single word. I am white with sorta red hair. But no, I do not have Gingervitis. A bit of satire can be found here:
But this is the key definition .... enjoy ..... or not.....
Gingervitis is a serious hereditary disease caused by a recessive gene. It can lay dormant for years and two perfectly healthy parents can have Ginger Babies.
Gingervitis affects millions of people world wide. The symptoms of gingervitis include: Red hair, pale skin, and freckles, a "Soulless" feeling. Some Ginger Kids may show symptoms such as violence and depression.
Although Gingervitis is not a life threatening disease it can be very serious.
There is currently no known cure and very little treatment for Gingervitis.
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Post by boraddict on Apr 29, 2019 18:53:29 GMT -6
thanks, kjs and bondservant . And to Natalie's point, yes a label tells others a summary of one's position in a tidy, single word. I am white with sorta red hair. But no, I do not have Gingervitis. You're looking good Venge. Ear-ring? Nose-ring? How about a few tattoos? I have often told my son (22) that I want to put a long brass rod from his earlobe up through the top of his ear. Then I could grab onto it from time to time just for the fun of it. I also want to take a dog leash and clip it onto someones nose-ring and lead them around for a few minutes. Then perhaps a quick yank. Someday? |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 29, 2019 19:56:05 GMT -6
I'm not sure there is any way to rescue this thread.... sorry, canada Feel free to make a post to try to get it back on topic... |
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Post by canada on Apr 29, 2019 20:56:14 GMT -6
OK Natalie ... thanks to all ... very good comments and a variety of understandings.
Thank you kjs for reminding us that the Jesuits presented two theories. At my age (87) I had forgotten that they had put forth preterism and futurism.
Along with the various positions we may hold to (or at least consider), when interpreting the Book of Revelation, I first attempt to take the passage 100% literal ... if this does not sit well, I then consider a figurative understanding may be in order.
An example would be ... Rev 13:13 ... And he doeth great wonders, (RC "miracles") so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
Note that the fire does not come down from heaven above, but from heaven on the earth. This fits well for the historicist, because that is what the unusual papal hat represents ... two tongues of fire.
RC "miracles" ... Marian apparitions ... winking Madonnas ... statues of Mary "weeping" ... levitation of St Joseph of Capertino ... turning wine into the blood of Jesus ... and on and on.
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