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Post by disciple4life on Sept 29, 2019 19:12:08 GMT -6
Hello Venge, Thanks for the clarification. The point that we are the temple is from the perspective of Christians who will be raptured, and most likely gone anyway, but this doen't change the fact that there is a Temple Institute, and all the elements are in place for real sacrifices, with real lambs - it's not a symbol or metaphor, and real plans for a real building.
It's happening bro. It already has happened with the priests doing a sacrifice on the Temple Mount. You can even find it on You-tube.
There's nothing symbolic about it to them. The only thing that they don't have at this time is the physical structure, but they have the plans.
I won't try to change your mind. I respect your right to have your own perspective. We're all learning and sharing.
It's like saying that the war of Isreal and the alliance of nations will be symbolic - or that it's a spiritual battle. There has to be some physical visible action - [I'm not at all dogmatic on what that is exactly,] but some action that is real, or something done that is visible for the Jewish people to be outraged, and cause them to see that it is the anti-Christ.
This cannot be fulfilled by some invisible, such as internal pride or an attitude of putting himself equal to God.
Daniel gives us a day count, that is connected with the Abomination of Desolation. You can't put a day count with someone being arrogant, or simply thinking they are God or equal with God.
At the very minimum, it would be some horrendous blasphemous words, on record for the world to hear and see, which there would be a record, and in print.
The Tribulation is not for Christians anyway. It's the Time of Jacob's trouble, Not Mike's Trouble, or Natalie's Trouble or Fitz' Trouble. Jacob is Israel.
We already agree that the 3rd Temple is not for Christians to gather and worship, but there will be a physical temple and physical sacrifices with red heifers. This is not even a question. All you have to do is ask the Temple Institute whether they are preparing for a symbolic temple or a literal one.
The real question for some that is relevant is the sequence of events. Most see that we will already be gone and watching the events from the balcony.
When the rapture happens, all the world will be mass hysteria, chaos, turmoil and fear, and world leaders will have to come up with a story.
The US being one of the countries with the highest percentages of Christians, and Korea, and England, they will be reeling from thousands of police and military officers missing, and the subsequent panic and lack of manpower, resources to come to the aid of Israel.
This is one reason that JD Farag and others gives why the US is completely absent from Scripture regarding end times events. So many people will be gone and not able to manage the hysteria of the world's greatest superpower and 10 million missing people.
Won't be able to defend Israel, in the Ezekiel 38 War.
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Post by venge on Sept 30, 2019 7:49:52 GMT -6
A few things.
I’m not blind to the fact there are some that wish to resurrect a physical temple along with animal sacrifice. But I’m not speaking of what’s going on in Israel or someone’s backyard. I’m specifically speaking about prophetic scripture and it’s interpretation.
You said tribulation is not for Christians. Why? Are all Christians perfect before God? Do they not need change and refining? Is tribulation wrath because all the apostles went through it, why wouldn’t we? Tribulation is persecution and we do go through it today.
You also mentioned the great hysteria that will befall everyone when the rapture happens. Noah didn’t leave the earth, Lot didn’t leave the earth and Rahab didn’t leave the earth. Neither did the Israelites when they walked thru the flood in the exodus. All were saved, but stayed on earth. Why do you think we’d vanish? We meet the Lord in the air and are forever with him and where does he go from there?
When the door is closed people are still eating and drinking and life goes on. There is no spectacular event till the door is shut.
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Post by disciple4life on Feb 11, 2020 8:49:08 GMT -6
There is no physical building that could adequately house the glory of our Heavenly Father, the Creator of all. But if building the third temple will hasten the return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, then I say, let them build it.  Isn't the building of a temple or even tent of meeting (which is what was instructed, not the temple) another possible sign? Stormy I don't think that it will hasten anything as the appointed date is already set. Just another nugget for us to see Very good point, mike.
Here is an article hot-off-the-press, regarding trees planted by the Kenesset- or Sanhedrin. [Some high ranking Jewish leaders] . www.breakingisraelnews.com/144915/sanhedrin-gets-authorization-to-use-their-trees-for-third-temple/
I agree 100% Mike, that the "appointed time" (your exact words 'appointed date' ) is the translation for the Hebrew word - Moadim - appointed time, which is also translated 'rehearsal'.
Interestingly, this exact same Hebrew word - Moadim/ appointed time is the word used for the Feasts. The day is appointed by God - it is set, and nothing will cancel, hinder, or speed up this day.
I love this phrase here. -- "Just another nugget for us to see" for those wiling to see it.
Interesting parallel, that just as most Jews' eyes are blinded to the Messiah, and the AC and all the events of the Second Advent - Rapture, Tribulation events, Temple, and Second coming - so many Christian's eyes are also blinded but for different reasons.
For some, they just ignore end times because they fear the events - don't want to think about themselves or their loved ones missing the rapture, or being here for the tribulation. For others - they dismiss the temple because they somehow think it's for us- and thus simply parrot clichés "We are the Temple", Christ was our sacrifice, and so we don't need a Temple" and even notions that the third temple is itself some abominable thing - not getting the fact that it is directly through / because of this temple that the AC will be revealed for who he is, and the eyes of the Jews will be opened.
All these people - for myriads of reasons are missing the point.
They can like it or not like it - but the 3rd temple is not in heaven, and it's not some abstract symbol, or spiritual metaphor.
There are real priests, with a real solid gold menorah, and real physical instruments, literal physical sacrifices, with real red heifers, and now, real trees from real wood, from the literal physical region.
For countless of watchmen, myself included, we believe that while the 3rd temple will be a physical brick/stone/mortar structure in Jerusalem, we most likely won't see it, because we will be raptured, but many also believe that we may see the start of it, and possibly even see the completed third temple.
Regardless of the timing - and one's particular position on the sequence of events surrounding the rapture, - to every watchman, it underscores the converging signs, and that we are on the cusp of Christ's Second Advent.
It's another mile-post that we are closer than ever before.
Come Lord Jesus Quickly.
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Post by venge on Feb 11, 2020 11:28:21 GMT -6
disciple4life said, “so many Christian's eyes are also blinded but for different reasons. For others - they dismiss the temple because they somehow think it's for us- and thus simply parrot clichés "We are the Temple", Christ was our sacrifice, and so we don't need a Temple" and even notions that the third temple is itself some abominable thing - not getting the fact that it is directly through / because of this temple that the AC will be revealed for who he is, and the eyes of the Jews will be opened. “ Not sure differences in opinion are blindness. The suggestion above is offensive and an opinion, not a fact. Many here hold to your opinion. Others have a different opinion. Instead of discounting ours, have you prayed about it and searched it out? Or is it refused from the beginning? I came to this position from the position you currently believe in. Others have as well. Why are they lead to it? What do they see that causes them to change views? We are all looking at the same object from different vantage points and each has information from their view.
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Post by mike on Feb 11, 2020 13:14:49 GMT -6
disciple4life said: I want to ensure clarity on this point. My position is that we are certainly the temple of the Holy Spirit and there is no need for a literal brick and mortar temple. HOWEVER the Jews do not hold this position as they do desire to have their physical structure of a temple rebuilt. Therefore it is my assertion they are blind in this point. There are also some Christians who may not understand that the believers body is the temple of God. Meanwhile unbelievers are a temple to themselves, their god, etc. The terminology of 'christian' may be where some muddying of the waters comes into play. There are an estimated 2.3 billion Christians on the earth worldwide. I will absolutely go out on a limb and state that most claiming to be 'christian' have zero clue about their body being the temple of God. venge said Venge - both opinions can exist and be accurate as we who commune with God and read/study His Word understand we don't require a temple made with human hands, but our is our own body inhabited by the Holy Spirit, while the Jew, likely Muslims and many many christian church goers think attending the building is their service towards God. I will not speak for D4L but I believe he has a similar understanding. EDIT - could you (Venge) clarify what you thought was offensive? The fact that the people in the land of Israel want a temple as evidenced by the red heifer, the candlesticks, and other temple items OR was it that it was stated that other Christians disregard this temple and state that 'we are the temple' and dont need the physical temple? - I am curious what you meant. As stated earlier I see both as accurate. We believers who understand (to some degree) the character of our God realize our bodies are that temple. But blinded unbelievers are looking for this temple, at least the Sanhedrin and therefore it is a fact. Further question - I would like to understand if you disagree or do not see that the physical brick and mortar temple needs to be built, what does one consider to be the Abomination of Desolation? If you have noted it somewhere before please link me to it so I can review. Thanks
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Post by stormyknight on Feb 11, 2020 15:38:24 GMT -6
disciple4life said: I want to ensure clarity on this point. My position is that we are certainly the temple of the Holy Spirit and there is no need for a literal brick and mortar temple. HOWEVER the Jews do not hold this position as they do desire to have their physical structure of a temple rebuilt. Therefore it is my assertion they are blind in this point. There are also some Christians who may not understand that the believers body is the temple of God. Meanwhile unbelievers are a temple to themselves, their god, etc. The terminology of 'christian' may be where some muddying of the waters comes into play. There are an estimated 2.3 billion Christians on the earth worldwide. I will absolutely go out on a limb and state that most claiming to be 'christian' have zero clue about their body being the temple of God. venge said Venge - both opinions can exist and be accurate as we who commune with God and read/study His Word understand we don't require a temple made with human hands, but our is our own body inhabited by the Holy Spirit, while the Jew, likely Muslims and many many christian church goers think attending the building is their service towards God. I will not speak for D4L but I believe he has a similar understanding. EDIT - could you (Venge) clarify what you thought was offensive? The fact that the people in the land of Israel want a temple as evidenced by the red heifer, the candlesticks, and other temple items OR was it that it was stated that other Christians disregard this temple and state that 'we are the temple' and dont need the physical temple? - I am curious what you meant. As stated earlier I see both as accurate. We believers who understand (to some degree) the character of our God realize our bodies are that temple. But blinded unbelievers are looking for this temple, at least the Sanhedrin and therefore it is a fact. Further question - I would like to understand if you disagree or do not see that the physical brick and mortar temple needs to be built, what does one consider to be the Abomination of Desolation? If you have noted it somewhere before please link me to it so I can review. Thanks Just as the shekinah left the temple, there are jews hoping that, if they build another temple(physical), the shekinah will return.
"This passage(Jeremiah 33:14-18) speaks about the Messianic Age when all Israel will be saved and restored to the Land of Israel. At that time, a righteous descendant of David, the Messiah, will sit on the throne in Jerusalem, and the Temple will again stand complete with its Levitical priesthood. If this is to be a future reality, is there any sign of preparation for a third Temple in Israel today?... However, many religious Jews do not support this idea because they have adopted a Diaspora mentality and a spiritualized way of thinking, which sets aside hope in a literal fulfillment of the biblical prophecies regarding a future Temple. For them, the present political situation on the Temple Mount with Muslims controlling the site is acceptable. Jewish leaders in the Temple Movement believe the Jewish people are not living on the spiritual level God intended because of the absence of the Shekinah (Divine Presence) from the world. Rabbi Chaim Richman, Director of the Temple Institute, which has produced all the ritual vessels necessary for the function of the Temple and works to train priests for this future work, says there is a connection between the need for a new level of spiritual attainment and the rebuilding of the Temple: “The Shekinah is brought about only through the Temple.…In terms of our mission as a people, we cannot in any way reach our spiritual status without the Temple.” For Orthodox Jews committed to reestablishing the Temple, both the present problems of the world and the problems faced by the Jewish people will be solved only by rebuilding." www.jewishvoice.org/read/article/update-building-third-temple
mike , you are not the only one on that limb. It has been my "opinion" for a long time now that many Christians say they are Christians because they know of Jesus, but don't adhere to a belief in what He did. In other words they "take the name of the Lord in vain". Just as in a marriage when the woman takes the man's last name, but as a vanity. They think they are special because they are Christian and so are blind. IMO, I think knowing that one has been given the Holy Spirit and that one's body is the temple that houses God's Spirit is the difference. At least that was my understanding when I was baptized. It was a nervous commitment for me at first, because I did not understand, had not learned, what I know now. I so look forward to what I will know in a new body!
venge , I, too would like if you clarified what it was that was offensive. I'm not taking an aggressive stance by any means and I don't think anyone else is either. I am thoroughly curious because I don't see it. |
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Post by disciple4life on Feb 11, 2020 18:10:54 GMT -6
Hello fellow watchmen,
Let me try to clarify my post a bit.
I agree with you mike on the point that we as followers of Christ, are the temple - Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
As such, we don't need a 3rd temple to worship God, and nor do we need to make any more sacrifices.
When Christ died on Passover, he was our Passover lamb, and was the perfect sacrifice once for all time, and once for all mankind. The curtain in the temple [the most holy place] was torn.
Most readers/ members realize that significance - the curtain or veil was over the Holy Place - the place where the Ark of the Covenant was and where God's presence rested. Only the high priest could go in, and once a year to make the sacrifice for the sins of the people.
This veil/curtain was torn from top to bottom, and literally opened up the "holy place" giving all believers - Jew and Gentile alike - direct access to God. We now don't need a priest and don't need to sacrifice animals.
As you said - Mike, - some Christians are not aware - ignorant or just haven't taken time to read, or perhaps their pastor never explained to them how scripture says that we Are the Temple of the Holy Spirit.
Other Christians are very much aware that we are the temple, but still not aware, that the 3rd temple is not for us - as Christians anyway, like the tribulation is not for us.
*** So they dismiss the 3rd temple as being symbolic - This is due to the fact that they always say - "We are the temple, so why would we need a third temple."
Again, - they are missing the point / they don't understand, or not aware, but the fact is, and the point is - As watchmen, we understand the huge role of the 3rd temple in terms of the End times and how it is inseparably linked to the AC.
Every new thing about the temple excites me beyond words. - whether the red heifers needed to consecrate the temple, or the gold menorah, or the priests themselves, or news about the ark of the covenant being found, and the trees/ wood planted by the Sanhedrin, and the newly minted Temple coin - because it means that we are so so very close.
I've said over and over and over - I think we will be gone, but I've also said over and over that I don't have all the pieces of exactly how all the end times events will play out.
Now, let's talk fact and opinion.
What's fact is that Daniel mentions the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place.
What's fact that that all the real, physical instruments are in place for the temple, including the red heifer, the priests and now the wood.
What's fact is that there will be a real, physical 3rd temple in Jerusalem.
What's opinion is the exact location of the temple. -- Will it be on the temple Mount, near the Al Aqsa mosque, or lower down, or some other spot?
What's opinion is when the temple will be built, and whether or not the rapture happens before it is built, or after.
What's opinion is that since we are the temple, any future temple is figurative or symbolic.
What's opinion is that if a Christian supports the temple, then he or she supports the AC, or thinks we still need to make sacrifices there.
Then, we have opinions that have evidence in scripture, and opinion which has no basis in scripture.
We have scripture to support a literal 3rd temple, being closely connected with the Tribulation and the AC.
There is no scripture or verse that says there won't be a 3rd temple, or that the 3rd temple is figurative, symbolic, -not real.
Christ himself quotes Daniel in Matthew 24:14 and 15 and says that one of the signs of the end times is that you will see the Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place.
"This gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come,
Perilous Times
"Therefore, when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the Holy Place,
16, then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. ... For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now."
Matthew is Gospel, historical narrative and so a person can't just say that the mountains are not literal, or the tribulation here is not literal.
venge, you have said in other threads that you don't believe that the 3rd temple is literal, despite the fact that all the things and people and animals connected to the 3rd temple are real.
Do you see the Holy Place as meaning something else, not the Holy Place in the temple, but some other Holy Place, and if so, where is that Holy Place?
I hope that helps give some clarification - and I apologize for the word choice saying some Christians are blinded.
Maranatha
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Post by mike on Feb 11, 2020 18:56:41 GMT -6
Another thought in question form. If we are the temple of God (yes we Christians are) how does the man of lawlessness stand in the holy place (assuming there is no third Temple)?
If the abomination that makes desolate stands in the holy place, and the holy place is not a physical structure, then every Christian will be violated by the anti-Christ (spirit). This includes me, venge, D4L, Stormy and so on.
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Post by boraddict on Feb 12, 2020 1:20:30 GMT -6
Please consider that when the holy city descends to the earth then the temple thereof is the Savior himself (Rev. 21:22).
Secondly, prior to the descent of the holy city the seven angels are sent out from the temple (Rev. 15:5).
This second point is rephrased in Rev. 11:19.
Therefore it seems that the temple on the earth is representative of the Savior being present on the earth. Thus, when Solomon built the 1st temple then God was symbolically with man. Included within the temple was the throne of God (Ark of the Covenant) with his law contained therein (the two tablets). We all know that God was not contained within the temple but he was in fact with anyone whom chose to follow God.
Because man fell below the minimum standards of having God with man then the 1st temple was destroyed and the children of Judah got a spanking. The throne of God was hidden beneath the city prior to that dramatic event.
After the 70 years then Judah returned to build the temple again. This second temple was again the dwelling place of God with man; however the throne was still beneath the city. Then just before the Savior's birth the temple was refurbished for the coming king. However, Judah again fell below the minimum standards of having God with man because they killed the Savior, their God. The 2nd temple was then destroyed in 70 AD.
Now we have the 3rd temple that is about to be built and God will be symbolically with man a third time. It seems to be like the Savior being in the tomb for three days and nights. However here he is in the physically constructed temple on three different occasions symbolically. So what could go wrong this time that would cause another destruction of the temple? However, this time all the wicked will be destroyed.
Afterwards, the Savior will feed his church as stated in Rev. 7:15-17 wherein they will serve the Lord that is the temple (Rev. 21:22).
I am convinced that the temple is symbolic of God with man and the 3rd temple is a valid expression just as were the 1st and 2nd temples. However, this time the throne of God will be revealed after the temple is desecrated as it comes forth from below the city, from the bowls of the earth (heaven), in all it's glory and the law is God is enforced (Rev. 11:19) to the complete destruction of the wicked. I suppose the Savior himself will be setting upon his throne for all to see. Not in the third temple mind you, but like riding the donkey into the city, Christ will be carried upon his throne into the city. I suppose that millions will want to carry the Savior upon his throne victoriously into the city.
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Post by venge on Feb 12, 2020 13:27:27 GMT -6
venge said Venge - both opinions can exist and be accurate as we who commune with God and read/study His Word understand we don't require a temple made with human hands, but our is our own body inhabited by the Holy Spirit, while the Jew, likely Muslims and many many christian church goers think attending the building is their service towards God. I will not speak for D4L but I believe he has a similar understanding. EDIT - could you (Venge) clarify what you thought was offensive? The fact that the people in the land of Israel want a temple as evidenced by the red heifer, the candlesticks, and other temple items OR was it that it was stated that other Christians disregard this temple and state that 'we are the temple' and dont need the physical temple? - I am curious what you meant. As stated earlier I see both as accurate. We believers who understand (to some degree) the character of our God realize our bodies are that temple. But blinded unbelievers are looking for this temple, at least the Sanhedrin and therefore it is a fact. Further question - I would like to understand if you disagree or do not see that the physical brick and mortar temple needs to be built, what does one consider to be the Abomination of Desolation? If you have noted it somewhere before please link me to it so I can review. Thanks and stormyknight, You asked, "could you (Venge) clarify what you thought was offensive?" He had said: What he said was that any Christian (myself and a few others that have visited this site and expressed this mindset) that believes in a third temple within us and not a brick and mortar 3rd temple are blind. That is offensive. There is a difference in opinions. He has one that some agree to, then there is another to which others agree to. Do not try to invalidate ours because it doesn't match your own. To follow up on the following posts, Then it was said: That statement is an opinion. Since tribulation is persecution, which Christians do experience from Christ to today, it is a fact we do and have endured it. The opinion is, we differ on what "wrath" is. Then it was linked either from him or from another, I am unsure, but I would like to reply to it in red: Now, let's talk fact and opinion. I agree with the above except point 3. It is ones opinion that there will be a real physical 3rd temple. If it happens literally, then it will be a fact. Until then, its an opinion - no different then my own. I am not stopping you from believing what you want. But please, I ask you to be respectful of others and how they view things without saying things like its a fact, if its an opinion. We don't have to agree, but we should keep it relatively peaceful and loving right? |
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Post by mike on Feb 12, 2020 14:02:22 GMT -6
venge , In your response (perhaps you missed it or were otherwise focused) you missed my important question and invalidated what I said. I'd like your thoughts on the third temple and where the AoD actually happens. To rehash I believe D4L said this^^^ - Again I wont speak for him, but having spoken with him enough lets change the verbage used and see why D4L might say it this way Can you see the difference? No one states Christians will not go through persecution, however the tribulation or perhaps Great Trib is called the time of Jacobs trouble isnt it? Who is Jacob other than Israel. Now is it possible that this view is co-dependent on the view one holds in regard to rapture timing? I think so. Lets say that someone like me thinks there's a possibility we are already in tribulation. There is little doubt this world is in a downward spiral, close to out of control. Without getting off topic we could argue that and if we are (and you hold a 7 year trib) then perhaps we are in the first half. Again this whole 3.5 or 7 years total is debatable and not the subject. So if we were in the time of trib and not quite Trib (capital T) or Israels Trouble then yes we would in fact go through tribulation. I think the intent was to say it the way I've reworded and not be offensive to your view. Back to the question I'd like you to address please as I am curious that if you hold the 3rd temple is purely spiritual and not physical where does this AoD happen? Since WE, believers are the temple of the Holy Spirit and those who reject Christ are not the temple, where would the anti-Christ/man of lawlessness stand? What holy place will he occupy claiming to be god? In your heart, mine?
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Post by venge on Feb 12, 2020 18:59:23 GMT -6
mikeI’ll be happy to respond to your latter question in a PM when I’m able. I’m not going to respond to it here to keep things peaceful. The purpose of my initial post was for others to please respect views different from their own. I hope we can amicably agree to that in loving kindness. As you once told me, many visit the site daily and never post. They may have different opinions on the matter as well and from a perspective not common to others.
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Post by mike on Feb 13, 2020 5:58:55 GMT -6
mike I’ll be happy to respond to your latter question in a PM when I’m able. I’m not going to respond to it here to keep things peaceful. The purpose of my initial post was for others to please respect views different from their own. I hope we can amicably agree to that in loving kindness. As you once told me, many visit the site daily and never post. They may have different opinions on the matter as well and from a perspective not common to others. Venge - I respect your decision to not reply publicly, however you have presented something publicly and wish not respond to those who are either curious, following along or otherwise regarding your reply. You assume things wont remain peaceful, why is that? I think you have judged others without giving chance to evaluate your position. Is it possible your reply would be met with scrutiny? Aren't most here to gain better understanding of the scripture. I appreciate many of your posts and though I havent always agreed with all, there have been several which have challenged my thinking and helped me see things from other angles. Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true.If I don't see something the same way there are a number of possibilities that I must remain open to. My eyes are closed and need to be opened to further currently unseen truth. Your eyes are blurry/closed and need to be cleared/open to truth. Examining positions is what we are supposed to do regardless of outcome or feeling about what one may currently perceive to be a correct view. EDIT - I just went back to read the first page of the thread and believe you made the point already. While your synopsis is possible, so is a literal physical third temple. We need to watch for all the signs and signals around us. No need to email me, I get it and if anyone else is curious see page 1 of this thread. |
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Post by venge on Feb 13, 2020 6:42:54 GMT -6
mikeGlad we can agree on the importance of my previous post.Thank you
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Post by disciple4life on Feb 13, 2020 6:53:41 GMT -6
Hello fellow watchmen.
It is neither my intent nor desire to stir up strife. I think we should examine views from scripture and history and sound Hermeneutics, as one of the signs of the end times are people departing from the faith, and there will be false prophets who lead Christians away from the true faith.
I'm not implying anyone in this thread is doing that but we've definitely seen people on the forum who hold such bizarre and twisted views but refuse to give scripture of back them up with anything.
For the sake of peace and unity, I'll leave this thread and not comment any more on this one - "What is the Third Temple." There are at least a dozen threads on the third temple. 😉
Every thing about the third temple excites me, as it's role in the Tribulation is huge, and Christ himself said we would see the Abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.
Its clear that no one can see him standing in the holy place if that's in our hearts or symbolic.
I will continue to share news and updates and developments in other threads on the temple so members and guests can share ideas on this topic.
Blessings
Disciple4Life
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