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Post by venge on Apr 13, 2019 13:44:31 GMT -6
I agree with Venge on this one. There's no difference between the second coming and the gathering, and it all happens at the sounding of the last and seventh trumpet. The Parousia and harpazo happen together. 1 Thes. 4:14-17... For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. There's NOT a 7 years gap between verse 15 and 17. Well put Jamie. I recognize that others have a different opinion because of traditional teachings. You have to remember that when it is said in Romans 8:1 That is applies to God's wrath. Not tribulation. People have a hard time separating that. Christ told us in the world you will have tribulation. But then someone says..but..but this is the GREAT tribulation. As that somehow becomes God's wrath. Only Matthew calls it the great tribulation. It is also the last tribulation that is mentioned. It still is not written as God's wrath. Not only that, but the scripture shows it with the 5th seal, the 6th seal, the interlude before the 1st Trumpet, the closing of Heaven's door before the 1st bowl and on and on! The verse continues with: free from the law of sin and death.
This is free from his wrath only because we are saved by grace thru faith. It doesn't prevent you from: - an auto accident by a drunk driver
- a rapists in your backyard
- a murderer
- bombing where you work by terrorism
- war
- famine
- pestilence
- a bad boss
All the things that happen when the final beast of the sea comes (except the bad boss - we all have 1). It protects you from God's golden cup of fury. It protects you from the second death.
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Post by tlwald on Apr 15, 2019 8:56:04 GMT -6
Great question. I have always believed that every part of us will vanish. Clothing, body, everything. The thought that the deception following that we “were abducted by aliens” would be so much more easily accepted that way. Since people that have experienced “abdication” were fully clothed etc.
I am so ready to see how it all transpires!
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Post by fitz on Apr 17, 2019 5:46:48 GMT -6
Great question. I have always believed that every part of us will vanish. Clothing, body, everything. The thought that the deception following that we “were abducted by aliens” would be so much more easily accepted that way. Since people that have experienced “abdication” were fully clothed etc. I am so ready to see how it all transpires!
Immediately after the tribulation of those days... And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven,... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.There are so many problems with the Post-trib understanding. How much sense does it make for us to go up and then turn around and come back down? It doesn't work. We can't be on the earth when Jesus appears in the sky and be following him at the same time.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Rev 19:14 Fine white linen, white and clean is what the church will be wearing and is this army. If we go up and then come back down, when and where does the Bema seat judgement take place? If, before Jesus returns, the bride is in heaven saying: And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God Rev 19:1, then when did she get there? Why does the church need to be here for "Jacob's trouble"? If Jesus accomplished (and completely finished) our justification, sanctification and glorification at Calvary, then what can we do during the tribulation to add to that work? Will losing our heads add to the justification Christ purchased with His blood? How can the church remain here when the restrainer has been taken out of the way? What bridegroom tortures his bride to be on the night before the wedding? Jesus? Have you ever been to a Jewish wedding? |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 17, 2019 8:49:59 GMT -6
Great question. I have always believed that every part of us will vanish. Clothing, body, everything. The thought that the deception following that we “were abducted by aliens” would be so much more easily accepted that way. Since people that have experienced “abdication” were fully clothed etc. I am so ready to see how it all transpires!
Immediately after the tribulation of those days... And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven,... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.Read the whole part of the last part of that verse "shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Doesn't sound like the church is on earth at Christ's Second Coming... |
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Post by tlwald on Apr 17, 2019 9:34:13 GMT -6
Natalie I was just getting ready to say that myself. It does say gathered in Heaven, not gathered from earth.
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Post by venge on Apr 17, 2019 14:04:46 GMT -6
You will have to wait until AFTER the tribulation.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days... And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven,... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. There are so many problems with the Post-trib understanding. How much sense does it make for us to go up and then turn around and come back down? It doesn't work. We can't be on the earth when Jesus appears in the sky and be following him at the same time.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Rev 19:14 Fine white linen, white and clean is what the church will be wearing and is this army. If we go up and then come back down, when and where does the Bema seat judgement take place? If, before Jesus returns, the bride is in heaven saying: And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God Rev 19:1, then when did she get there? Why does the church need to be here for "Jacob's trouble"? If Jesus accomplished (and completely finished) our justification, sanctification and glorification at Calvary, then what can we do during the tribulation to add to that work? Will losing our heads add to the justification Christ purchased with His blood? How can the church remain here when the restrainer has been taken out of the way? What bridegroom tortures his bride to be on the night before the wedding? Jesus? Have you ever been to a Jewish wedding? Fritz, I will try to answer the questions you asked. Others can chime in. You're questions are in Blue!I do not follow a full post trib doctrine. I am not sure if anyone here said that they do either. Dead rise first, then we who are alive and remain shall rise up to meet him in the clouds. We go up into the clouds and then we are forever with the Lord. We do not know the time between the resurrection and the marriage supper. 1 day later, 1 weeks later, 3 months later. It is soon but what length? No one knows such things but the Father. Why can we not be on earth when Jesus appears in the sky? The scripture says so. We follow him once we are risen to the clouds to meet him in the air. And you quoted Rev 19:14 and yes, that is us. The only ones to go up and then once we meet Christ are always with him, is there. It takes place at the 1st resurrection ie the rapture. It begins when Christ begins to reign at the 7th trumpet. At the twinkling of an eye at the last trump for the trump shall sound.... The bema seat is when we are rewarded. So you are asking when will we be rewarded. Rev 11:18 when the 7th trumpet is sounded we see this verse: Here is some scripture I will add. You choose to believe what you want. But I ask you to look at the similarity and understand the context. I wont give an explanation beyond that. Lets take away your quote that the bride is in heaven. Before Jesus returns you see Rev 19:1. You notice that happens before the marriage supper. The context of verses 1-5 describe the reason the people are excited. The verses above explain why and show the "when" it happens. But you need to remove a literal look at this and read what scripture shows you as I point out above using scripture to interpret scripture. I don't think we "need" to be here for a special event the way you make it sound. When Christ returns we are still on planet earth. God says we will always be on this planet. He made it for us and his glory. Why do Christians need to go through war as we have for the ages? Why can Paul and all the disciples be persecuted and killed or Christians today be killed, their villages burned and women raped, pastors thrown in jail yet some here cant see that happening to them? Why is it ok to see it happen to others? It does happen today to believers and will continue to happen on a wider scale. What day is he referring to in your opinion in verse 13? Notice how he says if you built your house upon a rock, it will stand when the fire comes and you will have your reward. Its not what you do that adds to the work. We obey by sounding the alarm. We blow the trumpet. We evangelize to make others white even to the end and if it causes us to be killed, then we do so for the Lord's sake. Ezekiel was set as a watchman, and many here call themselves watchman. But if ye be a watchman, ye will evangelize to save the souls of man today. For you do not know what hour your Lord will come. We obey the Lord's great commission. That is what we do during tribulation. Obey his word, stay firm in the faith never wavering and blow the trumpet to save souls. You mentioned losing our heads. Are you afraid to lose yours for your belief? I am not for mine. I am prepared as I think I am. It is said, it is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. I'd die for him, he died for me. There is no love better then a friend lay down his life for his brother. Christ died for me and I would die for him. Believers die today in Egypt and Africa to beheading because they will not renounce his name. Martyrdom for Christ is not shameful. Its true love and true faith. Christ purchased with his blood us that we can be saved from our sins and from the destruction of Almighty God in his wrath. God doesn't behead people, men do that. Christ blood also saves our souls. Our soul is not destroyed with his blood. Why do you talk about fleshly things? I talk of the spirit. You are assuming the restrainer is taken away before the first seal. but the verse says He is not revealed till the falling away happens and the restraining ceases. How can that happen if we have believers in the 5th seal? How can that happen if God said in the 5th seal, or even after this when we see in Rev 7:3 Believers before the seals. Believers in the seals. Believers still there after the seals. Now lets go back to the verse in question. This is the rapture. But verse 3 states: The day of the Lord Jesus, the day when we are raptured to him per verse 1 will not happen TILL the falling away happens and the man of sin is revealed. The rapture happens AFTER those things. The Church will fall apart. But there will be those who still cling to the faith waiting for the glorious appearing of our Great God and savior Jesus Christ. Christ does not torture his bride. He asks her to remain faithful even to the end. Of the 10 virgins, only 50% of them remained faithful at the end. You are assuming all of this is wrath. If you keep doing that, you wont see it any other way. No, but I have read about them, seen them on television, and studied some of them in relation to traditions and how feast were made, longevity of the wedding feast, traditions and such to understand. I grew up by a Hasidic Jewish neighborhood most of my life. My attendance to one in the seat versus studying matters not in my opinion. I have knowledge of them though there are differences per sect. Hope I answered your questions even if there are disagreements. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 17, 2019 17:01:49 GMT -6
venge, you and I have had our bouts, but what you laid out was well-presented. and since I have come to really look at this 7th Trump thing, it is lining up with what I have come to see now in the timeframes within Revelation, and believe me, I came kicking and screaming until I really began to think what tribulation means. For those reading, it is NOT a post-trib view. It depends on what TRIB means. It is NOT the same as WRATH, which I feel is part of the bowls, and Rev 20 is a really good timeframe JUST like Rev 14 is. These two chapters are pretty important.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 18, 2019 7:11:05 GMT -6
jamie-I think you missed what I was pointing out. The verse says the elect are gathered from one end of HEAVEN to the other. I am not arguing who the verse is about.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 18, 2019 7:46:33 GMT -6
jamie I have tended to see your point on several things, BUT, I ask, where do you get 45 days? You are not wanting some here to assume A, B or C in regards to the elect, but I need absolute scriptural reasoning for this 45 day time period. Also, It seems to me that Ch 14 of REev stands on its own set of train tracks. It is not a prelude to Ch 15, it is a generalized timeframe so as to guide us on other sections of Revelation, in my opinion. One big thing is the description of the two reepings. You cant have the grape harvest and then go on to destroy mystery Babylon. CH 14 tells us when MB falls. Rev 14 also reads differently than Ch 12 and 13 in its purpose.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 18, 2019 9:54:40 GMT -6
There are several examples in the bible where God didn't remove people from their troubles but help them through them.
Did God remove Noah and his family from the flood or did He saved them through it?
Did God remove Daniel from the Lion's den or did He save him through it?
Did God remove the three Hebrews from the fiery furnace of did He save them through it?
Did God remove Job from his trials or did God help him through them? I have heard some thoughts on some of these: For example, Enoch was raptured as a picture of the church while Noah and his family are a picture of the Jewish remnant. And, Daniel (as a picture of the church) was exalted to a high position (Daniel 2:46-48) while the three Hebrews (representing Jewish remnant) were in the furnace (which happened to be 7x hotter).
Nope. Jesus purifies the church by the work He did on the cross. We are dressed in His righteousness; can't get any more pure than that. True, our works will be judged and purified, but that doesn't occur on the earth. There is no need for the church to be here.
I'd like to see some Biblical support for that one.
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Post by fitz on Apr 18, 2019 10:06:09 GMT -6
This...
"Nope. Jesus purifies the church by the work He did on the cross. We are dressed in His righteousness; can't get any more pure than that. True, our works will be judged and purified, but that doesn't occur on the earth. There is no need for the church to be here."
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Post by mike on Apr 19, 2019 5:58:27 GMT -6
jamie - shouldnt the above post be 1335 & 1290?
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Post by venge on Apr 20, 2019 7:00:18 GMT -6
jamie -I think you missed what I was pointing out. The verse says the elect are gathered from one end of HEAVEN to the other. I am not arguing who the verse is about. I like the way "pulpit commentary" puts it. I agree with the writers explanation. It is implied that from one side of heaven to the other is world wide. North, south, east and west. A gathering of all God's children in this clause. Exactly how we, regardless of what tribulation view you espouse to, believe that the rapture is a world wide event, from one end of heaven to the other. The writer does say that the expression taken literally is not extensive though. |
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Post by unno0ne on Sept 19, 2019 4:04:23 GMT -6
I'm looking HARD at 23 September AGAIN!  It's Shemini Atzeret on Torah Calendar. Two years exactly from the Rev. 12 sign. John 6:40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. We, believers, aren't being resurrected at the White Throne Judgment, so doesn't this verse therefore speak of the Rapture? On Shemini Azeret! The last great day and the last trump!! |
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Post by stormyknight on Sept 20, 2019 11:22:34 GMT -6
I didn't know where else to put this and the title of this thread seemed apropos. As some of you know, there has been speculation that the rapture will get explained away by saying aliens came and abducted people. Well, if any of you have been following this, today is the day that a very large group of people are storming the gates of Area 51. Silly, I know. But, who knows? It could play into a scenario with the alien abduction thing. Also, there were just elections in Israel to a stalemate again. "Is there no King in thee?" Micah 4:9. Of course there are so many other markers pointing us to now being a 'high watch' season. So all this has been on my mind this week and this morning as I was leaving in my company truck to run an errand, I pull up to the only stoplight in town. A semi-truck passes by me with the name "Lightning Trucking" on it. I look forward and the truck in front of me has a label on it's tarp crank that says Thunder Tarps. WHOAA!! Does it mean anything? I don't know, but I'm keeping my eyes peeled.
Edit: I forgot to mention something else. The church has that special connection with our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in that we have His Holy Spirit. I recently watched this video from John Fenn about the Word of the Lord. rhéma - 1. properly, that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word This is the word Jesus Christ Himself used when He said: “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” Matt. 4:4 So I took it to mean that we are to live by every word that Jesus Christ(the Mouth/Word of God) tells us personally as well as from what we learn from scripture.
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