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Post by venge on Sept 21, 2019 5:37:16 GMT -6
I'm looking HARD at 23 September AGAIN!  It's Shemini Atzeret on Torah Calendar. Two years exactly from the Rev. 12 sign. John 6:40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. We, believers, aren't being resurrected at the White Throne Judgment, so doesn't this verse therefore speak of the Rapture? On Shemini Azeret! The last great day and the last trump!! But if we are resurrected on the last day, how is it the last day if 7 years remain? John 11:24 John 6:39 John 6:40 |
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Post by venge on Sept 22, 2019 12:27:02 GMT -6
I see no one responded to my post above...how about this one. I will post from the KJV on Biblehub below:
Now look at the following match in Luke 12 that is identified above in blue text.
The same text referring to the same thing. To watch and wait and pray for the coming of our Lord. Because we dont know the hour of his coming, what pre TB calls immenancy. But there is a piece of info here that is interesting.
In Luke 12,
It is when Christ returns from his wedding that we open up to him and go with him. And Matthew 24 says regarding that wedding, 36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
So when does the wedding happen, so that we know when we are to go to be with the Lord? In Revelation 19 we see Mystery Babylon destroyed in the opening verses below:
It is after Babylon is destroyed that we see the marriage which we are called to Christ at that time in the following verses:
The Lord reigns at the 7th trumpet.
And Revelation 14 shows the chronological portion of events:
1. The 144k (Rev 14:1-5)
2. Mystery Babylon's fall (Rev 14:6-13)
3. The Harvest (Rev 14:14-16)
So if we are to be with the Lord after Babylon is destroyed, when is Babylon destroyed before Chapter 6 according to Pre TB?
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Beloved
New Member
Waiting for our Blessed Hope
Posts: 43 
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Post by Beloved on Sept 22, 2019 12:54:55 GMT -6
inaweofhim , I hope we have a little time before we go up, so I can write the name of a website or Bible verse real quick
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Post by inaweofhim on Sept 22, 2019 20:51:47 GMT -6
I see no one responded to my post above...how about this one. I will post from the KJV on Biblehub below: Now look at the following match in Luke 12 that is identified above in blue text.
The same text referring to the same thing. To watch and wait and pray for the coming of our Lord. Because we dont know the hour of his coming, what pre TB calls immenancy. But there is a piece of info here that is interesting.
In Luke 12,
It is when Christ returns from his wedding that we open up to him and go with him. And Matthew 24 says regarding that wedding, 36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
So when does the wedding happen, so that we know when we are to go to be with the Lord? In Revelation 19 we see Mystery Babylon destroyed in the opening verses below:
It is after Babylon is destroyed that we see the marriage which we are called to Christ at that time in the following verses:
The Lord reigns at the 7th trumpet.
And Revelation 14 shows the chronological portion of events:
1. The 144k (Rev 14:1-5)
2. Mystery Babylon's fall (Rev 14:6-13)
3. The Harvest (Rev 14:14-16)
So if we are to be with the Lord after Babylon is destroyed, when is Babylon destroyed before Chapter 6 according to Pre TB?
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Post by inaweofhim on Sept 22, 2019 21:08:28 GMT -6
HI Venge,
I try to follow all your replies, but I get mixed up, sometimes, by the amount of words and verses you quote. My mind and thinking is very simple, unfortunately. I wish I had more time to really digest your thoughtful replies - can't wait for heaven and unending conversations on HIS Word!!!
I just wanted to ask about your use of Matt 24 and Luke 12. I have thought that Matt 24 dealt mainly with Israel during the tribulation (7 years). Luke 12 seems to me to be about all of us having the attitude of expectancy for our LORD - whether pre-trib, or during Trib, anytime. And the parable of the expectant steward in Luke 12 is one of expectant service, waiting for the master when he returns from the wedding feast. Could it be, though, that these parables of the expectant steward, and the faithful steward are to the Israelites again? That they are the "stewards" of the Law, and the prophets, and the Word given up to this point, when Jesus is speaking? Because I plan on being at the wedding! And not waiting for my master after he has returned from the wedding feast - that I am supposed to be a part of!!! Even Peter asked in v 41 of Lk 12: "Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?" See, it is very confusing, to me.
I just know that I am to always be expecting HIM at any moment!!
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Post by venge on Sept 23, 2019 4:40:24 GMT -6
inaweofhimHello!! The text is not suggesting you miss the wedding feast. It’s when he is married, that we are called to the feast/supper following it. Believers, Jew or Gentile, can be invited to the feast. And are we not as stewards told to wait and watch and plant seed?. As far as 7 years, there is no scripture that says we ascend and wait 7 years. But scripture does say we are raised in the resurrection at the last day. And if Christ reigns at his wedding being the 7th Trumpet, and we are to reign with him..the bride has already made herself ready at that time and we are saved. Truly, if the 7th trumpet is the first day of his 1k year reign and we reign with him, then the last day was right before it so that we can reign concurrently with Christ Edit: I should add, in both chapters, Christ is speaking to his followers. And in Matthew, he relates we wait like Noah did till the day the flood came and then he entered that same day. How does that pertain to us? For we are to be saved when the flood comes and it is to happen the same day and if the relation is meant to be resurrection, then the text simply shows it is us that goes at his reign and not 7 years before it Edit again: I know it may seem I’m saying the same thing. Sometimes that is the case, but I’m trying to explain it a different way. If it’s difficult to understand it the first way I presented it, I apologize. I have tried many times to refute what I wrote, but I can’t. I keep finding scripture that backs it up. The harvest, the resurrection and rapture and the wedding being all at the same time.
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 7, 2019 21:11:22 GMT -6
You will have to wait until AFTER the tribulation.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days... And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven,... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. There are so many problems with the Post-trib understanding. How much sense does it make for us to go up and then turn around and come back down? It doesn't work. We can't be on the earth when Jesus appears in the sky and be following him at the same time.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Rev 19:14 Fine white linen, white and clean is what the church will be wearing and is this army. If we go up and then come back down, when and where does the Bema seat judgement take place? If, before Jesus returns, the bride is in heaven saying: And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God Rev 19:1, then when did she get there? Why does the church need to be here for "Jacob's trouble"? If Jesus accomplished (and completely finished) our justification, sanctification and glorification at Calvary, then what can we do during the tribulation to add to that work? Will losing our heads add to the justification Christ purchased with His blood? How can the church remain here when the restrainer has been taken out of the way? What bridegroom tortures his bride to be on the night before the wedding? Jesus? Have you ever been to a Jewish wedding? Fitz, my brother, you knocked it out of the park with this one. I really wish I had the link but you can find it on You-tube. Perry Stone does a stellar job teaching on the Jewish wedding and how that is a picture of the rapture. Is the rapture a wedding? Absolutely, 100% without a shadow of a doubt.
In one of the most well-known rapture passages, there are 10 bridesmaids. Five are wise and five are foolish. [Some translations say wicked - but that's another thread.] This is the rapture picture. The Bridegroom comes with a shout. Here he tells us when he's coming. Every listener immediately understood the reference as clearly as every middle school kid knows what a day of Independence is, or the day of Turkey.
In the traditional Jewish wedding, the bridegroom would come and took his bride into the wedding chamber - chuppah for seven days. Hmmmmm. Just let that rent space in your head. Then while they were there, they consummated the marriage, and then he returned with his bride to the guests.
One of the most overlooked and misconstrued passages in the Bible is this passage. It says that the foolish bridesmaids did not know the hour.
Paul also confirmed exactly what Jesus said - talking to Christians and he said that we are NOT children of the night, so that day will not surprise us like a thief, - using a well-known Hebrew idiom, that everyone understood - referring to the High Priest who was known as the Thief in the Night because of how he would come through the temple at night looking for priests who fell asleep on their watch.
I've seen several places where someone used the example of Noah and Lot in a way to show that Christians won't be in the Tribulation. Christ likened the Second Advent - [Rapture, Great Tribulation and Second Coming to Noah and Lot. What did these have in common. ?? Almost nothing. One was a city, one was the whole earth. One was several specific sins - one was total Godlessness and wickedness in general. One was regional, the other was global. The two things they had in common - 1. Both were warned before the wrath/ destruction came. 2. Both Noah and his family, and Lot and his daughters were spared the wrath.
Rahab was spared- no harm came to her when Jericho was destroyed. The three Hebrew children did not suffer in the fire. It had no effect on them. It says that their hair was not even singed. Daniel was saved /protected from the lion's Den. No harm came to him at all. Lot did not suffer in the fire and brimstone. He was not harmed in any way. Noah did not suffer in the flood. The Children of Israel were protected from every effect of the death angel.
Scripture says explicitly that the Tribulation is the time of Jacob's trouble. Jacob is Israel, not the church.
Another point someone made - I'm wish I could remember. This is now the age/ time of the Gentiles. The church age. The Church age began with a Feast - the Feast of Weeks, Pentecost. The Church age will end with a Feast. A Feast will mark the beginning of the tribulation. This will be the time of the Jews. It will be the time when the veil will be lifted off their eyes, and they will all be saved. The Groom comes with a shout, at the Last Trump, FOR HIS BRIDE. [Paul gave us more clues that confirm that the same thing Christ said] and then we are snatched up with Christ in the air. Harpazo. Rapture. The Bride of Christ will be with him, for 7 years in the Chuppah, at the Marriage supper of the Lamb. *** Yeah, it's a wedding. ;-) Then, Christ returns to Earth with his Bride, and he reigns for 1000 years.
Revelation is filled and overflowing with vivid descriptions of God's wrath and judgement poured out on a world who rejected the Messiah. His wrath is not for his Bride. fitz, you nailed it, my friend. ;-)
Maranatha Disciple4life
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Post by mike on Oct 8, 2019 8:50:39 GMT -6
disciple4life - one thing very common to all of the examples you give is that they were saved through the 'tribulation' they encountered. Noah was not taken away from the flood, Rahab was in Jericho, Lot had to flee, Daniel still in the lions den, Shad, Mesh & Abed were in the furnace. None of these vanished and escaped the situation but God was merciful and saved them through it. The tribulation may be for Jacob but that doesnt mean the people (gentiles) wont exist on the earth when it occurs.
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Post by venge on Oct 8, 2019 10:07:52 GMT -6
disciple4life - one thing very common to all of the examples you give is that they were saved through the 'tribulation' they encountered. Noah was not taken away from the flood, Rahab was in Jericho, Lot had to flee, Daniel still in the lions den, Shad, Mesh & Abed were in the furnace. None of these vanished and escaped the situation but God was merciful and saved them through it. The tribulation may be for Jacob but that doesnt mean the people (gentiles) wont exist on the earth when it occurs. Mike, you said it before I could 👍. Remember the people pushing on Lot’s door. Was he not in a time of persecution and anxiety? What about Lot who was taken by King Chedolagomar? He was deprived peace and taken and his goods and others. That is tribulation. To others here: Where does God or any apostle say that we won’t be persecuted? That we will be saved from persecution? No where! You are saved from wrath, not persecution. Why be persecuted as it was asked? Did you think of what it meant for all the apostles to be persecuted? How about leading others to Christ for one. How about those that are weak, to strengthen themselves in such areas. Did we read different Bible’s? You are right, it was finished on the cross. But persecution still happened then and today. Don’t you pray for the body? If one part is killed off, doesn’t the other part know it? How can you lose a arm and not know it? But the body is attacked in many countries outside the US. Where is the prayer? Where is crying heart? God is tender in mercy but he told us we are counted as sheep and are killed all the day long and some here say we live! We don’t go through persecution. Are you killed in your large houses, with 401k plans and new cars? Read the writings of Iraeneus or Eusebius. They speak of how Christians after Christ ascended were delt with and you think that won’t happen to you? |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 8, 2019 11:43:25 GMT -6
But what if we take more of the story into account...Daniel was exalted to a higher position and the other three went through the fire. Enoch was raptured and Noah went through the flood.
As I see it, the church will not be here, but the Jews will be, and God will protect them. And yes, there will be gentiles here. But the Church is neither Jew nor Gentile but a new man that God created.
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Post by venge on Oct 9, 2019 3:13:10 GMT -6
But what if we take more of the story into account...Daniel was exalted to a higher position and the other three went through the fire. Enoch was raptured and Noah went through the flood. As I see it, the church will not be here, but the Jews will be, and God will protect them. And yes, there will be gentiles here. But the Church is neither Jew nor Gentile but a new man that God created. Natalie, The 3 that went thru fire are us. They didn’t escape it yet they were saved from it while in it! They all had great faith. Daniel was in it with the lions. Ready to be devoured. While in it, was saved. Jonah was swallowed by a whale. While in this fire, was saved in it. All I have been saying models these and other scenarios. We go in the fire but are spared from being burned. The fire judges a mans work what it is. Some built with wood and some gold. The 3 in the fire were of gold or some precious material. They built their house on a rock. For us, the fire is testing, not wrath. Philadelphia is kept from the hr of testing because they are faithful to God and Christ; not the world. But Noah was saved from a flood. These others were not floods. They were Tribulation/Persecution. Since we hold onto Christ, we are children of the promise and so we know God keeps his covenants including not to destroy his seed with a flood; that’s us. But, we can go through tribulation. |
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Post by mike on Oct 9, 2019 17:41:05 GMT -6
venge this was huge for me, thank you We believers and non-believers go through the same trials. Sickness, loss of a loved one, broken relationships but the fire tests the faith of a believer, while the non-believer often blames the God he/she doesn't believe in. I do think the purpose is to turn the heart to Him but many don't respond.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 9, 2019 20:27:52 GMT -6
mike, venge, AMEN amen amen… you are saying exactly the things of where my heart has come to REST regarding the understanding of fire and testing the past 18 months...I just can not explain it as well as you have been doing..
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