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Post by kjs on Nov 30, 2018 9:51:35 GMT -6
A bit of history before getting into the debate; there are several theories about what the word “Believes” means …
One particular theory is it (the word) is a past tense mode – meaning that at some point in a person’s past they made a declaration for belief in Jesus Christ.
Another theory (the one I ascribe to) is a present tense continuing mode – meaning it is a past, present, and continuing (future) mode – it is an ongoing activity, not a one-time event.
Just to be clear, I do fall within the camp that believes “Once Saved Always Saved” -- so in one sense there has to be that “past decision” – so yes, there is a TIME when it all started… BUT it is an on-going belief.
Let us take a look at the Greek word -- Original Word: πιστεύω πιστευω believe (in), have faith (in), have confidence in, entrust Transliteration: pisteuó: to believe, entrust So far so good, we have defined it into English words to help us understand the meaning. But I think we need to go a step further; we need to look how Jesus defined it. No, I do not mean Jesus produced a dictionary with translations; but He did do something to get people to understand him; He used illustrations, and stories, and examples, and parables. Yes, some of these are hard to understand, but if He really wanted to make a point – He gave a specific example.
This example from Jesus, is perhaps my most favorite example – because it is so simple a child can easily understand it. IN John 3
10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you[f] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.{ESV}
For those who need a little help with Bible history, the story can be found here…
Numbers 21
The Bronze Serpent
4 From Mount Hor they set out by the way to the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom. And the people became impatient on the way. 5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food.” 6 Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7 And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you. Pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze[c] serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live. {ESV} Now the word “believes” found in John 3:15 (for the record the believes found in verse 16 ) is the same as the one in 15 – which is the most quoted verse….
Let’s take a closer look….
Jesus says “…so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.”
Son of Man – is the phrase Jesus used to speak of himself…..
So Jesus says whoever believes in the “lifted up” Son of Man will have eternal life.
So the only thing we need to do is investigate what it means for the Son of Man to be lifted up….
Thus comes the story of Moses and the fiery serpents……
The KEY to the story was “what provided “LIFE” to those bitten?”
They had to LOOK to the Lifted up Serpent …. Notice that God never removed the serpents from Israel’s camp – He simply provided a remedy for whomever was bitten. That is the same with us today – we are “bitten” by our sinful nature – but God provided a remedy – to LOOK to the Lifted up Son of Man…. Please note: nothing “special” needs done – No promising to stop committing sins, no speaking in tongues, no (add whatever else) … simply LOOK (or trust) that Jesus did everything that was needed to grant life ….. The point I am trying to drive home – that trust is ongoing (not a simple one moment in time)…..
If one falls (or sins) one simple has to LOOK to the Lifted up Son of Man…. |
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Post by mike on Nov 30, 2018 14:19:34 GMT -6
Great insight KJ - I'll provide a brief personal history to apply to this situation.
I became a believer in 1994.
From about 2001 to 2005 I began to drift further away from the relationship back into the world system. I began to live life as if I had never believed.
From 2005 until sometime in 2016 I lived life the way those who are opposed to God would. You could apply many of the abominations from the bible to my lifestyle.
In 2016 the Lord remembered me. No not that He ever forgot me, He re-membered me! He put me back together, with Him where I belong
Was I still saved?
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Post by kjs on Nov 30, 2018 15:08:19 GMT -6
Great insight KJ - I'll provide a brief personal history to apply to this situation. I became a believer in 1994. From about 2001 to 2005 I began to drift further away from the relationship back into the world system. I began to live life as if I had never believed. From 2005 until sometime in 2016 I lived life the way those who are opposed to God would. You could apply many of the abominations from the bible to my lifestyle. In 2016 the Lord remembered me. No not that He ever forgot me, He re-membered me! He put me back together, with Him where I belong Was I still saved? Ahh Mike -- I just told you I am a member of the camp 'Once Saved Always Saved' -- so of course I will yes "You were still Saved -- even while you lived with abominations.....
How does that work; do not know -- sorry haul in some theologians -- to answer that one...
I personally feel (but cannot prove it) that ALL those kids that "get saved at church summer camp" -- then go home and move into college environment and start declaring they are atheist
are really "SAVED" and at some point in their life .... God will step back in -- and remind them they are His child.....
Just like He did for you....
The on going belief I was mentioning above -- is the growing process (some call it sanctification process) -- and the growth ONLY happens when we are in relationship with God (through the Holy Spirit)....
One can NEVER ever lose a GIFT -- because of some actions -- they might lose sight of the gift, they might toss it in the back room storage closet, but the GIFT was given because of what Jesus Christ did ....
no one can take it away, no one can return it.....
Does that mean ALL who declare they believe in Jesus Christ are saved?
NO, the belief is determined by what they are trusting .... Are they believing that if they forsake all their sins and promise to do better .... they are saved?
Probably NOT -- because they are not having BELIEF (trust) that Jesus Did it all and Paid it all -- to give them a FREE Gift.......
They are still making deals (like trying to do better, or confess more, or....) which means they are still trusting in themselves is some ways.....
IT IS ALL GOD (through Jesus Christ's Actions) -- that trust -- saves
Any Self addition -- is not saving.....
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Post by mike on Feb 5, 2019 8:30:54 GMT -6
This minister makes it very simple and I encourage anyone who thinks we need to earn something, work for something be approved, are chosen/predestined to listen to the words of the gospel. This message will bless your heart and those who you share the gospel with.
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Post by cwood85 on Feb 5, 2019 21:14:49 GMT -6
kjs “Does that mean ALL who declare they believe in Jesus Christ are saved? <<<< This can get rather deep. Could this imply a different Jesus that they are referring to? Simply believing the name of Jesus and not acknowledging his sacrifice and resurrection? Or what if someone does believe in Jesus Christ the son of God who died on the cross and was raised from the dead and that all of that is true, but still try to overcome their constant sins, is that not enough belief or trust in him to be saved? NO, the belief is determined by what they are trusting .... Are they believing that if they forsake all their sins and promise to do better .... they are saved? <<<<< If they believe and begin trusting that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, but attend a church that is deeply rooted in doing works and good deeds as a support or proof of their salvation are they not saved?Probably NOT -- because they are not having BELIEF (trust) that Jesus Did it all and Paid it all -- to give them a FREE Gift....... How do we measure when someone believes enough or their trust is deep enough to be saved? Does the Bible give a measurement or standard for knowing that an individual trust and believes enough to be saved or ensures their salvation?They are still making deals (like trying to do better, or confess more, or....) which means they are still trusting in themselves is some ways.....” <<<<This could be an ongoing process. Maybe something that they grew up learning and are having a difficult time pulling away from and understanding that they do not need to do that to be saved. If they believe in Christ and all that he did for us, but continue to try and overcome and do better hoping to maybe prove themselves, feel better or that these actions ensure their salvation are they not saved? What if they get into a car accident minutes after understanding Christ died on the cross for their sins but pray that they will try to do better and not sin as much right before the accident, are they saved or unsaved at that point?^^^^ Help me out here with some clarification in regards to the above statements you made. My questions/comments are in color. I am not trying be arguementive or anything of that sort. However with the way some of the things are stated above, it sounds as if there is a high enough level of trusting and having faith before we are really saved or that this is a measurable belief and understanding before one truly acquires salvation. References to scriptures in regards to your statements would be greatly appreciated as well  Editing to add: 23And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24“And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25And when the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26And looking upon them Jesus said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
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Post by kjs on Feb 6, 2019 10:32:00 GMT -6
“Does that mean ALL who declare they believe in Jesus Christ are saved? <<<< This can get rather deep. Could this imply a different Jesus that they are referring to? Simply believing the name of Jesus and not acknowledging his sacrifice and resurrection? Or what if someone does believe in Jesus Christ the son of God who died on the cross and was raised from the dead and that all of that is true, but still try to overcome their constant sins, is that not enough belief or trust in him to be saved?
First want to be extremely clear … I try to never “Judge Someone” on whether they are a Christian (A real Believer) or NOT … however, I do admit to “WONDERING” on their said salvation status (these are people who claim they are believers and are therefore saved). For example a male individual claims to be a believer (believes he is SAVED). However, action-wise – seems a bit in left field (so to speak)…. Examples include cussing up a storm, in daily conversations (as regular everyday language). Is very sexually active and literally brags about each of his weekly new partners.
Cases like these make me “wonder” – I really do not know if he is saved or not. I suspect he is not – But I do not know. He says he is Saved (and he knows Jesus Christ suffered and died for all of us and raised again). So technically, you could say “He Believes” – But is it really “saving faith” – that I cannot say.
NO, the belief is determined by what they are trusting .... Are they believing that if they forsake all their sins and promise to do better .... they are saved? <<<<< If they believe and begin trusting that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, but attend a church that is deeply rooted in doing works and good deeds as a support or proof of their salvation are they not saved?
This is one of those sticky issues – are they going to church, feeding the poor, tithing and other “good works” because “they are saved” (have real saving faith) – or are they thinking that by going to church and tithing and performing good works – they are somehow getting on God’s Good side. That is a motivating factor – what is doing the “motivation” -- attempting to produce good works – for doing the “works themselves” … or doing the “good works” because God has given them a desire to perform these works. Since this is a “MOTIVE” issue we on the outside cannot really tell which motivation it is….
Probably NOT -- because they are not having BELIEF (trust) that Jesus Did it all and Paid it all -- to give them a FREE Gift.......
How do we measure when someone believes enough or their trust is deep enough to be saved? Does the Bible give a measurement or standard for knowing that an individual trust and believes enough to be saved or ensures their salvation?
That is my whole point here; there does not appear to be a “TEST” that proves whether ones faith is “SAVING”. Yes, we are told we can “see Brothers and sister by their fruit” (Matthew 7:16-20) … but that only proves they have done “good works”…. So you have the “confession portion” – that they are a believer and then the “fruit producing portion” – Neither Proves beyond any doubt they are truly saved. SO once again – it is back to the individual and God – and we on the outside cannot truly know for sure….
They are still making deals (like trying to do better, or confess more, or....) which means they are still trusting in themselves is some ways.....” <<<<This could be an ongoing process. Maybe something that they grew up learning and are having a difficult time pulling away from and understanding that they do not need to do that to be saved. If they believe in Christ and all that he did for us, but continue to try and overcome and do better hoping to maybe prove themselves, feel better or that these actions ensure their salvation are they not saved? What if they get into a car accident minutes after understanding Christ died on the cross for their sins but pray that they will try to do better and not sin as much right before the accident, are they saved or unsaved at that point?
Like my example above – we on the outside looking in cannot really “tell” -- true Faith from False Faith. Like I said I personally do not like to Judge Someone’s Salvation of not – since I cannot really know. So pretty much ALL of my comments above – which you quoted and asked about are more directed at the individual --- who is the ONLY ONE who really Knows – who or what they are Trusting. If it is Jesus Christ and His finished Work…. Then great … that sounds like saving faith.
23And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24“And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25And when the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26And looking upon them Jesus said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
That is indeed the overall Answer – Salvation is Impossible for us Humans (based on our own individual efforts)
BUT thanks to Jesus Christ – a way to Salvation was made through His works.
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Post by cwood85 on Feb 6, 2019 13:12:22 GMT -6
“First want to be extremely clear … I try to never “Judge Someone” on whether they are a Christian (A real Believer) or NOT … however, I do admit to “WONDERING” on their said salvation status (these are people who claim they are believers and are therefore saved). For example a male individual claims to be a believer (believes he is SAVED). However, action-wise – seems a bit in left field (so to speak)…. Examples include cussing up a storm, in daily conversations (as regular everyday language). Is very sexually active and literally brags about each of his weekly new partners.
Cases like these make me “wonder” – I really do not know if he is saved or not. I suspect he is not – But I do not know. He says he is Saved (and he knows Jesus Christ suffered and died for all of us and raised again). So technically, you could say “He Believes” – But is it really “saving faith” – that I cannot say.”
Solomon was like today’s Gene Simmons as far as promiscuity and women goes... and God loved him dearly. Solomon paid the consequences for his actions however.
David murdered to be adulterous and pursue his pleasure.
The adulterous who was caught in the act and placed before Jesus was comforted by Him in assuring her that she was not condemned or stood accused.
It is hard for us humans to see beyond physical appearance and actions because that is all we can see. We think inside a box and in the moment.
I was reading an article the other day about these dragqueen story hours being done at libraries for small children to be read to. The most recent being done by someone who refers to them self as Annie Christ. The comments on this article were disappointing to say in the least as far as the hate being spewed from mainly Christians. One Commented on how it must practically be impossible for transvestites and those who dress in drag to be saved by God because of how disgusting their lifestyle and actions are.... what little is believed to be possible with God.
When I read things like this however or of whether a person is really “saved” based on their lifestyle or actions, here is something to consider.
What was essentially the biggest and most frequently done actions by Christ while he walked the earth? What did Christ ask his disciples to do while spreading the gospel of the kingdom? The gospel before he had even been crucified.
Heal
He healed, restored, cured, cleansed and purified people of diseases, deformities, demons and evil spirits, and even death. He healed those who asked, those who did not, those who were unsure or were doubtful. He is so much pure life that just touching his garments cured and took away disease. He did not do this to prove who he was or because he felt bad for those with illnesses and demons. He did this without any prejudice or questioning and never once refused someone. There was not a conversation first of what sins they had done throughout their life and which ones they repented of or didn’t. He praised those who had faith, but never turned anyone away.
The heaing was the gospel physically being done and proclaimed.
As far as cussing goes... over the last couple of years what comes out of my mouth has cleaned up 110% but my internal voice is still struggling with keeping it clean sometimes. Way better than it used to be but every now and then I am still reprimanding myself at the words that pop into my head lol. An ongoing progress I guess.
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Post by kjs on Feb 6, 2019 15:59:12 GMT -6
Most of what you listed -- is exactly why I try to avoid judging anyone .... because I do not see their heart and motivations......
So I can only see outside actions ......
when those actions do not appear to align to let us say the "moral road" -- then it makes me wonder......
So does that mean all Believers become "Saints" from the moment they believe....
They are seen by God as having the righteousness of Jesus Christ -- yet their earthly flesh still stumbles (and wallows) in sin.
So the individual I mentioned -- definitely would not rank as "Christian of the Year" from an outside perspective -- but he does say he is a believer -- so I should take him at his word.
==============================================
But as I pointed out in the original post -- there is a "time" feature to the belief -- meaning it is generally seen as some point in the past. But there is also a "continuing" sense to that belief -- as well and that I think continues to be overlooked --when the were bit by the serpents they had to "look" to the bronze Serpent -- to live.....
It does not specifically say -- but I suspect they had to "look" each time they were bitten -- so they had to "continue to trust" that looking would save.
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Post by uscgvet on Feb 7, 2019 7:37:01 GMT -6
“He did this without any prejudice or questioning and never once refused someone. There was not a conversation first of what sins they had done throughout their life and which ones they repented of or didn’t. He praised those who had faith, but never turned anyone away. I would argue that these passages would disagree... Matthew 15:21-28 Mark 7:24-30 |
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Post by mike on Feb 7, 2019 9:13:49 GMT -6
“He did this without any prejudice or questioning and never once refused someone. There was not a conversation first of what sins they had done throughout their life and which ones they repented of or didn’t. He praised those who had faith, but never turned anyone away. I would argue that these passages would disagree... Matthew 15:21-28 Mark 7:24-30 Not really Vet - He initially refused the woman, but then told her that her faith made her daughter well. She was a gentile 'dog', not a child of Israel, which if you are following a dispensational view Christ was not "available" to non-Jews yet. We can read into the story further but too much speculation would stray from the point being made. |
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Post by cwood85 on Feb 7, 2019 9:17:51 GMT -6
“He did this without any prejudice or questioning and never once refused someone. There was not a conversation first of what sins they had done throughout their life and which ones they repented of or didn’t. He praised those who had faith, but never turned anyone away. I would argue that these passages would disagree... Matthew 15:21-28 Mark 7:24-30 At what point did He refuse her? The disciples tried to avoid her. He made a statement to her, but did he question her lifestyle, past sins and etc? He was making a point, especially to those observing. Do you think if she would have given a different answer to his statement that Jesus would have refused to heal her daughter of the demon? |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Feb 7, 2019 9:21:57 GMT -6
I would have to disagree with you usgvet, as this episode was for the demonstration of Faith.
First, Jesus knew before hand she would come to Him, He wanted to be there "unnoticed". And because of what He was saying, people were responding. She was HEARING of this. I see it as merely a testing her faith, and it is a foreshadowing that Jesus would save ALL. I see His statement of whom He came for as rhetorical, so as to have her profess her faith in who He was standing there in front of her. I also don't think the location of where this happened is by accident either. She was discerning the Lord from the demons. She bowed her knee and cried out to Him. I think He wanted her to profess the distinction of Him over some other spirit she may have been following.
24Jesus got up and went away from there to the region of Tyre. And when He had entered a house, He wanted no one to know of it; yet He could not escape notice.
25But after hearing of Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately came and fell at His feet.
26Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter.
27And He was saying to her, “Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”
28But she answered and said to Him, “Yes, Lord, but even the dogs under the table feed on the children’s crumbs.”
29And He said to her, “Because of this answer go; the demon has gone out of your daughter.” 30And going back to her home, she found the child lying on the bed, the demon having left.
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Post by uscgvet on Feb 7, 2019 11:50:55 GMT -6
The Matthew 15 account paints the picture that Jesus dismissed/ignored her up front, then basically told her no, He's there for Israel, she kept begging, He responded back with basically another "no", she responded to his dog comment with humility, only then does Christ see her faith.
Matthew 15:
22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.” <-- Begging 1...
23 But He answered her not a word. <-- Dismissal 1...
And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” <-- continuation of Dismissal 1...
25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” <-- Begging 2...
26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.” <-- Dismissal 2...
27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” <-- Humble Response...
28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour. <-- Acceptance of Faith...
Sorry guys/gals... Christ did dismiss her... TWO times! I don't see it any other way other than a rejection of a gentile until the manifestation of faith.
Christ was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
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Post by boraddict on Feb 7, 2019 12:10:15 GMT -6
I would argue that these passages would disagree... Matthew 15:21-28 Mark 7:24-30 Not really Vet - He initially refused the woman, but then told her that her faith made her daughter well. She was a gentile 'dog', not a child of Israel, which if you are following a dispensational view Christ was not "available" to non-Jews yet. We can read into the story further but too much speculation would stray from the point being made. Yes that sounds right. It was not until Paul showed up on the scene that the gentiles were brought into the fold. I suppose bringing the gentiles in to early would have derailed the entire work. Thus, all things had an order such as Christ bringing Israel to the truth, and then Israel bringing the gentiles to the truth. Thus, it was not that the gentiles were condemned from Christ, but that the work of Christ had to be protected. Even today we can see Judah resisting Christ and at that time it was even more difficult to convert them. If Christ would have included the gentiles then the Jews would have used that information to discredit him. This is a huge subject and the bottom line is that Christ is willing to forgive everyone. However, while he was on his mission his focus was to pay the dept and anything that might have interfered with that had to take second place. As it was the Jews could not find fault in him. Had he taught the gentiles, then the Jews would have found fault and not killed him as the unblemished lamb. Most likely they would not have killed him at all since he would have been marked as a false prophet teaching gentiles. He would not have been a threat to their established order. So he did not reject the gentiles but protected his mission (passion). |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Feb 7, 2019 18:22:40 GMT -6
Really help me to understand this. "I came for the lost sheep of Israel" This is suggesting that God is exclusive, racist, and prejudice. I just do not see this as a character of the Lord.
what is a sheep? A sheep is a herd animal, and unlike any of the other domestic herd animals such as cattle and goats. They seek comfort in numbers and do not do well when singled out on their own. The BIG aspect of a sheep is their desire to FOLLOW for safety and sustenance. He was coming for those LOST, BLINDED, misled, faithless sheep whom He had demonstrated for 4000 years what it was to FOLLOW Him or not. Of course the gentile was a term to apply to a human who was not of this line of people whom were entrusted with the Law. Yes, Jesus had to be born, WALK, die and Rise according to God's established LAW shown thru a group of poeple. But FAITH is the core meaning of this event, not refusal or denial by the Lord to even care for one of his created souls. There are plenty of non-jew persons in the OT that were counted as righteous for their faith. First one I can think of is the story of the scarlet threads that were place outside the window so that those within the household would be spared for that woman and her family. I cannot recall her name. But, she was not a jew. She knew of or HEARD the power of "their" God and seeked the same protection.
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