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Post by mike on Feb 1, 2020 13:02:00 GMT -6
Nelson is someone with a little different view on end times and worth a listen to help expand understand of possible differed perspective
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Post by sog on Feb 1, 2020 14:33:47 GMT -6
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Post by mike on Feb 1, 2020 14:48:40 GMT -6
sog - there are many valid reasons for me to 'lock in' as "I'm pre-Trib because..." Like you I want to go home today and if that means pre, then so be it. But I wont stay so lazer focused on a view point as to miss what is happening in the world around us. There are so many signs that we are extremely close to major fulfillments happening. Like what would all be saying if Damascus was leveled tomorrow? "Nope, sorry that only happens during the Trib, so thats not fulfilled".
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Post by mike on Feb 1, 2020 15:27:54 GMT -6
Sog i wonder about text like this sometimes
Rev 6;16-17 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has [is]come; and who is able to stand.
If this happened today would anyone really say this (verbatim)? Or would it be more like "God just kill me!" or "I would be dead right now!"
I can tell you there are people I know that would not say what Rev 6:16-17 says. No way, no how. The wrath of the Lamb. People dont even know what that means. We as last days believers have to be aware of things like this as its possible we are here during Trib. We need to be able to recognize the signs
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Post by mike on Feb 1, 2020 15:33:10 GMT -6
So the deal has been flat out rejected by Abbas and all ties between them, Israel and them & US are done They have cut all ties read the article here
So how can the land be divided with no one to divide it with.
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Beloved
New Member
Waiting for our Blessed Hope
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Post by Beloved on Feb 1, 2020 16:17:45 GMT -6
mike, This plan is, imho, probably not the covenant with the grave. While the PA has completely rejected it, the other members of the Arab League have said it would be a good place to start from for talks (but it is not good in current form). The problem is, we have decent information on the tribulation period, but we don't have information on how we get from now to there. All we can do is speculate. However, we can be assured the LORD will move everything to its proper position. Some covenant will be confirmed; if not this one, then perhaps one based on it. Another thing I have always held is that we need not look for a seven-year period. Antichirst merely has to confirm a covenant for seven years; this period is cut off by Lord Jesus's Second Coming. It could be planned to be an indefinite period, cut short by Divine Intervention. sog, I looked at your article. The problem is, it relies part and parcel on 2 Thessalonians. That particular pre-wrath point is fairly easily refuted: www.pre-trib.org/pretribfiles/pdfs/Ice-TheDepartureIn2Thess2-3.pdf
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Post by yardstick on Feb 1, 2020 22:34:49 GMT -6
I want to say that re the Rev 12 sign, I'm not a hater, not a naysayer. It meant something big, and I think was instrumental to wake up thousands of sleeping, apathetic Christians, and now they are watching. It increased the awareness and use of tools like Starry Night and Stellarium like 1000 fold. LOL.
ME!me too... i found out about it by watching a youtube vid on a lark... (Oh, look! Another conspiracy theory! Lets see what this one is about!") What an eye opener... better than an alarm clock...
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Post by sog on Feb 1, 2020 23:33:13 GMT -6
Beloved , I don't see it as easily refuted. 2 Thessalonians 2 2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? So Paul is comforting the Thessalonians, basically saying hey, relax. You may be in tribulation, but this is not The Great Tribulation. That day doesn't come until the Day of the Lord and that day the the man of lawlessness is revealed. So, if apostasy refers to a "departure' rather than "a falling away", that's great. Either way it happens right before or on the Day of the Lord, and the article you linked says the same. Either way, it seems to me, we are raptured right before the Day of the Lord, or simultaneously. The problem with pre-trib lies in the next part. And this part doesn't happen until the mid-point of tribulation. The revealing of the man of Lawlessness. Does the man of lawlessness reveal himself with a "confirmation" or "strengthening" of a peace plan or covenant? I cannot find scripture that says he is actually revealed at that point. You can argue that he is (debatable), but scripture doesn't seem to say he is actually formally revealed for who he is. Or, as I think it says, he only really formally reveals himself when he takes his seat in the Temple at the mid-point? So we should ask ourselves, "Does he reveal himself twice?" Why would he need to? Also this - Matthew 24:21 21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. Not tribulation, but Great Tribulation. At what time? Matthew 24:15 15 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand)... Anti-Christ, standing in the holy place. The temple. Mid-point of tribulation. Back to Paul, he goes on - 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming... So the Anti-Christ is being restrained and only until God's time will he be revealed. What does restrained mean? No power whatsoever? I don't think so, we've been in varying degrees of some kind of tribulation and evil since the beginning. Interesting that it says the "mystery of the lawlessness is already at work". What is this "mystery"? I think the mystery of lawlessness is a power unseen, unknown except by its effects, that is ever working in the world for evil. It is working against the law and will of God. Including a peace plan that attempts to divide Israel according to man's desire rather than God's. It certainly is a very big step toward the end and I'm not sure what the events will be during the first 3.5 years. Maybe Isaiah 17. Maybe Ezekiel 38. But that doesn't mean the Anti-Christ is actually revealed yet. Moving on, then the one who restrains, the Holy Spirit, the Lord, steps out of the way. Then the lawless one is revealed, again, at the mid-point. The video mike posted shows scripture interpreting scripture and it seems to me a more solid interpretation of the events that will happen. It really boils down to where you believe the Day of the Lord begins. At the beginning of the 7 years, or 3.5 into it? Is it the Great Tribulation from the start of the 7 years? Or is it 3.5 years of tribulation and 3.5 years of Great Tribulation. I am leaning towards the later when the Anti-Christ is actually revealed and we are raptured. Especially if we aren't raptured in the the 2020/2021 time frame. If not then, then I think we have to start considering a Pre-Wrath rapture, if the end of the 7 years is a 2027/2028 time frame (Israel Fig-tree generation parable).
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Post by Natalie on Feb 2, 2020 19:28:09 GMT -6
currently listening to Pastor JD's update
my Pastor doesn't ever seem to mention current events and prophecy, but today he was talking about the virus and things just seem to be getting worse and he says, "As our world hurtles toward the Kingdom, we are along for the ride, and we'll see what amazing things our God will do."
That's pretty much where I am at...watching the amazing things our God is doing. He doesn't want His land divided, but He told us Jerusalem will be a burdensome stone. Everything is hurtling us towards the End. Whether this is THE treaty or not, Jesus is coming very, very soon.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2020 2:19:22 GMT -6
JD Farags assessment on the MEPP It's very interesting to see the division on the PP all over the (true) church.
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Post by mike on Feb 3, 2020 7:04:02 GMT -6
very good, thank you reepicheep. I hope to not see more division on this. Let us endeavor to continue to be vigilant in watching this. As for me I will fall short of committing myself to say "this is it..." but will contemplate how it could or could not be. I simply cant dismiss it like some are.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2020 9:20:39 GMT -6
mike , to be honest, I see the different assessments on the PP as a result of different perspectives. I agree with i.e. Amir Tsarfati in most points. (check his video below) And I also agree with JD in most points. It's simply a matter of the perspective....
If Jerusalem is viewed as a divided city or not, depends strongly on what does one see as borders of Jerusalem... But it is indeed troubling to cite the koran as a questionable source for the muslim claim on Jerusalem and not even once the bible (>700 clear references to Jerusalem....) in this paper.
Furthermore this PP clearly proposes a 2-state "solution" despite the fact, that Israel will get some more (small) pieces of Judea and Samaria. This will NEVER, EVER work, though one understands the need for some compromises....
And the reactions of the so called "Palestinians" and the Arab world clearly show the direction of the journey..... Jerusalem is going to be the burdensome stone as Zechariah 12,3 states:
It will bring Israel and the whole world closer to the final show and the church to the rapture! This is, what I take from this PP. No more, no less. And btw I'm still not sold on a 7yr peace treaty, so many Christians are looking for....I have a different approach. Maybe I will write this down eventually, when all pieces of this model are in place. But this is another story....and nothing to be dogmatic about
(Sorry if I've repeated points, yet said by others in other posts of this thread, I hadn't had the time to sort thru...)
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Post by mike on Feb 3, 2020 10:20:50 GMT -6
@reepicheep I get it and that is the problem we often find in conversations. Perspective! We can look at the same object/event and see it differently. The church doesnt do this and should. And when we dont see things we need to be able to respect that someone else may see the same event differently. Providing the view is biblically sound, we shouldnt dismiss as out of hand. Amir and friends did just that. They ignored this Peace Plan as it didnt fit their perspective. Could they be right? SURE! Is it worth ignoring or dismissing as they did in the video, NO!!
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Post by sog on Feb 5, 2020 16:27:19 GMT -6
Interesting take on Covenant with many from Eschatology today website. If nothing else, it's another step as the signs are converging. Headline: Global SITREP A7-20: NATO & Israel a Covenant Among Many eschatologytoday.blogspot.com/From link - 2 February 2020: Here we have yet another Eschatology Today published subject from ten years ago (2010) which is now elevated for a second time to a full SITREP. Ten years ago not many paid much attention to that post, the crux of which was the threat posed by Iranian ballistic missiles as a mutual threat to both NATO and Israel. The NATO ALTBMDS program in the past decade has matured into the NATO BMD (Ballistic Missile Defense) with Initial Operational Capability (IOC) achieved in 2016. The NATO BMD was exercised in Israel last year. Moreover, Israel tested a new rocket for the BMD system just days ago. Israel is the front line for the NATO BMD system of systems. In May of 2016 we had Global SITREP C2-16: Israel Takes a Big Step Towards a Covenant Among Many. So, this topic should really not be new news for any reader of Eschatology Today as over 1,400 of you read it. SITREP A7-20 will both buttress and expand upon what we already know. Full membership in NATO for Israel, which requires the assent of all NATO members, had for six years been blocked by Turkey since 2010. In 2016, Turkey dropped its objection, and Israel's slow integration into NATO has proceeded apace. in 2017 Israel signed a cooperation agreement with NATO. Three years later, and according to the European view, Israel has become a premier partner for NATO as a 25-year long member of NATO's 'Mediterranean Dialogue' with a liaison office in the Brussels HQ of NATO. In April 2019 IDF solders were side by side with NATO troops in the American-led "Allied Spirit" exercise in Hohenfels, Germany. Israel's participation and technological advancements in the massive Defender 2020 (February-June 2020) are assured. Defender 2020 will insert massive numbers heavy, armored forces into Europe, from the Baltic to the Republic of Georgia. Full membership in NATO for Israel through the Membership Action Plan (MAP) is just a matter of time in fulfillment of Daniel 9:27. The MAP is a process which can take a few years under normal conditions. Since 2008 NATO and Israel have also been in an Individual Cooperation Program (ICP). Israel is the only nation outside of Europe in an ICP with NATO. The ICP coordinates repose to terrorism, intelligence sharing, armaments, NBC defense, military doctrine, exercises, civilian emergency and disaster preparedness. In 2020 everything is present except for the actual accession, or confirming of membership in NATO.
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Post by disciple4life on Feb 6, 2020 19:42:32 GMT -6
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