|
|
Post by Joecool on Oct 2, 2018 5:48:35 GMT -6
There might be a thread for this already, but I couldn't find it. So if there is please direct me to it.
I wanted to discuss the what we can expect after the rapture. I know we face the Bema seat judgement, but what are the verses that explain the actually wedding of Christ to the church? I am guessing it is after the Bema Seat. Since there will be a wedding feast during the millenial kingdom if I am not mistaken.
|
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Oct 2, 2018 17:22:12 GMT -6
I am not sure if the Bible gives any detail on the wedding. One verse I am familiar with is Rev 19:7 "Let us rejoice and exult and give Him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His Bride has made herself ready." One thing I read is the phrase "has come" means that it already took place. That makes sense to me because the angel in Rev 19 goes on to announce "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." The part about the Bride making herself ready is because the Bema Seat judgement had taken place.
|
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Oct 3, 2018 7:33:20 GMT -6
Personally (IMHO) I think the wedding, the bema seat judgement, rewards... and I can imagine getting assignments/training for our jobs during the Millennial reign (my own conjecture). But I also think it's a time of rest. A time to enjoy the "places" Jesus has prepared for us and rest. I think we will will work hard during the Millennium, so this is a time to rest and to see all the wonders of heaven, and to learn the deeper things of our Lord.
Regarding the wedding feast...food! Consider Luke 12:36 & 37...I personally think it should be taken in both a spiritual and literal sense. But it will be a real feast, the best food and wine and Jesus will serve it.
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
Chronologically, the rapture is part 2 of the wedding (part 1 , betrothal...where we are now) as Jesus takes us to His Father's house, the actual wedding ceremony. Part 3 is the wedding supper upon our return at the second coming. This is how the invited "guests" participate. It's like the wedding reception we would be familiar with, which comes after the ceremony.
|
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 3, 2018 10:37:57 GMT -6
I saw something similar fitz in that there is some indication of when the Marriage Supper is and why:
21Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer. 22“And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer; 23and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery. 24“And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”
1After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying,
“Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; 2BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.” 3And a second time they said, “Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER.” 4And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne saying, “Amen. Hallelujah!” 5And a voice came from the throne, saying,
“Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great.” 6Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying,
“Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.
7“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9Then he said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.” 10Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”The when it happens seems to be after the fall of Mystery Babylon, the great harlot for that matter. And from Chapter 14 of Revelation we get a similar timeframe: There are three angels mentioned, the first one preaching the Gospel, the 2nd one proclaiming Babylon has fallen...the third one announcing the consequences justifying the wrath to come.. So what do people think of this timeframing? The supper coming AFTER the fall of mystery babylon...so I think the Supper is not exclusive to the initial Rapture.. it seems to be following a rather major event of Truth overcoming corruption.. These verses to me are part of the build up to the Marriage Supper..imo... |
|
|
|
Post by venge on Oct 3, 2018 14:03:06 GMT -6
I saw something similar fitz in that there is some indication of when the Marriage Supper is and why:
21Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer. 22“And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer; 23and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery. 24“And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”
1After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying,
“Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; 2BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.” 3And a second time they said, “Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER.” 4And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne saying, “Amen. Hallelujah!” 5And a voice came from the throne, saying,
“Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great.” 6Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying,
“Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.
7“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9Then he said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.” 10Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”The when it happens seems to be after the fall of Mystery Babylon, the great harlot for that matter. And from Chapter 14 of Revelation we get a similar timeframe: There are three angels mentioned, the first one preaching the Gospel, the 2nd one proclaiming Babylon has fallen...the third one announcing the consequences justifying the wrath to come.. So what do people think of this timeframing? The supper coming AFTER the fall of mystery babylon...so I think the Supper is not exclusive to the initial Rapture.. it seems to be following a rather major event of Truth overcoming corruption.. These verses to me are part of the build up to the Marriage Supper..imo... Barbiosheep, That is how I took it as well. Interestingly, in verse 6 you have a great multitude symbolizing to me the raptured in heaven. In verse 7 we see the marriage supper has now come. In this instance it happens after Mystery Babylons fall. In matthew 25:10 we see additional info: The door remains open till the supper right? If the supper begins after Babylon's fall, the door must be open prior to Babylon's destruction. I think both Pre Trib and Post trib agree. But in Pre Trib, the door would shut for a rapture before the first seal, here it seems to be opened still, assuming its the same door, till a time closer to this event. So, when does mystery Babylon fall? If rev 14 is chronological, which is how I take that chapter, it is destroyed after the 144k are sealed. And we know in Revelation 7, the 144k are sealed after the 6th seal and before the 1st trumpet. So, Babylon cannot fall till after the 6th seal but before the bowls right? Just for giggles, I'm going to say...what about the 2nd trumpet as a possible Babylon fall? I already believe this but I'll let you all look at it. Think of it this way (though it is not pre trib- humor me), the 6th seal comes, God seals the 144k, the rapture happens, the door is shut, Babylon is attacked (1st seal), Babylon destroyed (2nd seal), Beast causes full worship and sets up the mark and image following Rev 14... |
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Oct 4, 2018 6:46:41 GMT -6
I am just posting this out there to keep everyone informed. You will need to read the entire article (maybe five mins) to see all his arguments; but I believe he makes a very good argument on why the church is not the bride of Christ (and after all we are the Body of Christ) and it makes sense the "body" will not marry itself.....
I will admit this guy is closer to an ultra-dispensationalist then most people are but he does make good and logical claims...
I believe the most powerful argument is this one....
In the marriage of the Lamb, we read that the bride has made herself ready. Does this sound like the Church, the body of Christ?
Paul declared members of the body of Christ have been made complete in Christ (ἐστὲ ἐν αὐτῷ πεπληρωμένοι, Colossians 2.10).
The Church needs no “preparation.” We are complete in Him!
No, the bride here is Israel and the “marriage of the Lamb” is the reconciliation of Israel with God which the prophets foretold.
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on Oct 4, 2018 7:28:50 GMT -6
I am just posting this out there to keep everyone informed. You will need to read the entire article (maybe five mins) to see all his arguments; but I believe he makes a very good argument on why the church is not the bride of Christ (and after all we are the Body of Christ) and it makes sense the "body" will not marry itself.....
I will admit this guy is closer to an ultra-dispensationalist then most people are but he does make good and logical claims...
I believe the most powerful argument is this one....
In the marriage of the Lamb, we read that the bride has made herself ready. Does this sound like the Church, the body of Christ?
Paul declared members of the body of Christ have been made complete in Christ (ἐστὲ ἐν αὐτῷ πεπληρωμένοι, Colossians 2.10).
The Church needs no “preparation.” We are complete in Him!
No, the bride here is Israel and the “marriage of the Lamb” is the reconciliation of Israel with God which the prophets foretold.
Good find! I agree when the writer states Revelation reads like the O.T. Taking symbols and such. This is exactly how I interpret it. In the matter of the bride not being the church, his argument against the church is a valid one. Are believers that are sealed and saved a bride? Are those that are blinded and still not saved, when they change and finally cry abba, is that the bride that is made white? If the wedding comes after Jerusalem’s destruction, that has to be when she converts. Through fire one is made like unto gold. Fantastic read. I don’t agree with it all but he proposes some interesting ideas I had not pondered |
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Oct 4, 2018 7:42:11 GMT -6
I don't agree with him. And I believe Revelation was given to all believers, not just "Jewish assemblies". 1:1 "God gave Him to show to His servants" It reads like the OT because it pulls all the prophecy from there and puts it in order.
One question: Reading through Revelation 19, how could Israel have been made ready when Christ hadn't returned yet?
The Bible teaches that Israel is the wife of God. They are already in a marriage covenant, but she is has been unfaithful. See Jeremiah 31:31-36
I agree with the one commenter "Robin" that there are pictures all through Scripture of a Gentile bride (specifically the stories of Joseph and of Ruth). The whole story of Abraham, Isaac, the servant, and Rebekah is a picture of the Father, the Son, the Holy spirit, and the Bride. She (Robin) also brings up that Eve was created from Adam yet his wife. The church could be the body and the bride.
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on Oct 4, 2018 9:08:58 GMT -6
I don't agree with him. And I believe Revelation was given to all believers, not just "Jewish assemblies". 1:1 "God gave Him to show to His servants" It reads like the OT because it pulls all the prophecy from there and puts it in order. One question: Reading through Revelation 19, how could Israel have been made ready when Christ hadn't returned yet? The Bible teaches that Israel is the wife of God. They are already in a marriage covenant, but she is has been unfaithful. See Jeremiah 31:31-36 I agree with the one commenter "Robin" that there are pictures all through Scripture of a Gentile bride (specifically the stories of Joseph and of Ruth). The whole story of Abraham, Isaac, the servant, and Rebekah is a picture of the Father, the Son, the Holy spirit, and the Bride. She (Robin) also brings up that Eve was created from Adam yet his wife. The church could be the body and the bride. Good point Natalie. I don’t remember him saying Revelation was not for all, I don’t know how someone thinks it’s not for all. I understood he was referencing the first few chapters and suggesting that was to Jews and not believers. That is one part I did disagree on. Israel is the bride but we are talking about a spiritually set Israel under God, to which they aren’t today. Can believers and Jews fit in together? |
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Oct 4, 2018 10:07:20 GMT -6
I'm not sure I understand your question "Can believers and Jews fit in together?"
|
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Oct 4, 2018 11:24:05 GMT -6
I don't agree with him. And I believe Revelation was given to all believers, not just "Jewish assemblies". 1:1 "God gave Him to show to His servants" It reads like the OT because it pulls all the prophecy from there and puts it in order. One question: Reading through Revelation 19, how could Israel have been made ready when Christ hadn't returned yet? The Bible teaches that Israel is the wife of God. They are already in a marriage covenant, but she is has been unfaithful. See Jeremiah 31:31-36 I agree with the one commenter "Robin" that there are pictures all through Scripture of a Gentile bride (specifically the stories of Joseph and of Ruth). The whole story of Abraham, Isaac, the servant, and Rebekah is a picture of the Father, the Son, the Holy spirit, and the Bride. She (Robin) also brings up that Eve was created from Adam yet his wife. The church could be the body and the bride.
To me, this is the clearest argument
Colossians 2
9 For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 In him you also were circumcised—not, however, with a circumcision performed by human hands, but by the removal of the fleshly body, that is, through the circumcision done by Christ. 12 Having been buried with him in baptism, you also have been raised with him through your faith in the power of God who raised him from the dead. 13 And even though you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he nevertheless made you alive with him, having forgiven all your transgressions. 14 He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 Disarming the rulers and authorities, he has made a public disgrace of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
We (as the Body of Christ) are IN Christ -- we are Baptisted into His death so we may be raised with Him
Romans 6: 4 Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life.
So when we looked at Revelation 19 7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 then he *said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb’”
Who are the ones that have "Made themselves Ready" -- not the church (Body of Christ) -- since they are IN Christ and therefore have His righteousness....
I do not agree with all his statements ... but the whole Bride being Israel makes the most sense to me..........
BUT this is NOT a huge issue .... simply another view point...........
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on Oct 4, 2018 17:11:43 GMT -6
I'm not sure I understand your question "Can believers and Jews fit in together?" Ha sorry! Can believers and Jews fit into the bride together... I have my own opinion, but was looking at what others thought |
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Oct 4, 2018 18:01:42 GMT -6
That's what I thought you meant, but I wanted to make sure.  short answer - Jews who become believers before the rapture are part of the bride. Long answer - God started with Abraham to create a nation for Himself. He then brought them out of Egypt and gave them His laws. They were to show Him to the world, to be faithful to Him as a wife is to a husband. But Israel was unfaithful. (Jeremiah 31:32 "My covenant they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD") In the OT, Gentiles were allowed to become part of the Jewish nation (think of Rahab and Ruth), but I don't think it was very common. When Jesus came, a new group was created from those in Israel who believed in Him as Messiah. The group was originally Jews, but Gentiles were invited to become part of this new group, the Church. Through Him, He made them one (see Ephesians 2:11-22, Romans 11) Jews and Gentiles are both part of the bride because they are joined as one new man and joined to Christ. But the majority of Jews will reject Him, so the church is predominantly Gentile believers. Right now it is a time of calling out a people for Christ (1 Peter 9-10) However, God is not done with Israel. She will return, renew her covenant as His wife, and be given a new heart to follow Him (Jeremiah 31:31-37). I believe this happens during Daniel's 70th week to be completely done at the end when Christ returns, but I do not see it as the marriage to the Lamb. I think that the Church belongs to the Lamb and Israel belongs to God (the Father). |
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 5, 2018 12:52:48 GMT -6
natalie said:
Natalie, just for the sake of trying this just once, have you or can you "see" the picture that was drawn out in the OT concerning Israel equating to the Believer verses the disbelief and lack of faith of the Jew? kjs brought in the Col 2... we have in the OT a whole cloud of witnesses that demonstrate being Israel verses being jew...walking in Faith verses walking in flesh.. I really encourage believers to consider the duality of the teachings that the OT shows this predicitable behavior of people when Jesus walked the earth the first time. As we leave the age of this Pentacostal Hope and enter into Tebernacling with the Lord for real, the same condition of the heart of man still exists.
Yes, a new group was created and we were shown this to be the outcome of Faith. It matches events like Jacob wrestling with God (an angel) and then coming to faith and receiving his New Name! The Jew, those who could not let go of the physical law and are not operating in Faith, we find out what happens to them in 70-73 AD, and this will play out again. No one can come to the Father unless thru the Faith in His Son. I say that so you know that I know this. I would just encourage one to consider that even within the Churches there a many not walking in Faith....
BUT.... they will be made ready thru the events about to come. Once ALL have come, then that Supper can commence...notice the elements of the Supper: Bread and WINE! This is my Body, eat, be filled take Me inward, BY FATIH..drink of this WINE this wine is the BLOOD of my NEW Covenant. Chapter 14 shows this Last Supper. Those that come out of the winepress will have been made ready! how do we know? Because the sickle is trusted in and a harvest is made.
Many are going to agrue the timeframe of this,,,but hold on to this description Jesus gave to HIS FOLLOWERS in the "upper room".. His annoint sealed followers will go out and make disciples...the Gospel will then be preached from"midheaven" to all the earth. we then see the result and that is what looks like a wheat harvest,, and then a grape harvest...then we see the marriage supper is ready..this to me is what the 2nd Coming has come to represent to me. It is replay of what Jesus did in His earthly ministry. This time, the witnessing will be done by His First Fruits! Maranatha!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Oct 5, 2018 13:36:56 GMT -6
natalie said: Natalie, just for the sake of trying this just once, have you or can you "see" the picture that was drawn out in the OT concerning Israel equating to the Believer verses the disbelief and lack of faith of the Jew? kjs brought in the Col 2... we have in the OT a whole cloud of witnesses that demonstrate being Israel verses being jew...walking in Faith verses walking in flesh.. I really encourage believers to consider the duality of the teachings that the OT shows this predicitable behavior of people when Jesus walked the earth the first time. As we leave the age of this Pentacostal Hope and enter into Tebernacling with the Lord for real, the same condition of the heart of man still exists. Yes, a new group was created and we were shown this to be the outcome of Faith. It matches events like Jacob wrestling with God (an angel) and then coming to faith and receiving his New Name! The Jew, those who could not let go of the physical law and are not operating in Faith, we find out what happens to them in 70-73 AD, and this will play out again. No one can come to the Father unless thru the Faith in His Son. I say that so you know that I know this. I would just encourage one to consider that even within the Churches there a many not walking in Faith.... BUT.... they will be made ready thru the events about to come. Once ALL have come, then that Supper can commence...notice the elements of the Supper: Bread and WINE! This is my Body, eat, be filled take Me inward, BY FATIH..drink of this WINE this wine is the BLOOD of my NEW Covenant. Chapter 14 shows this Last Supper. Those that come out of the winepress will have been made ready! how do we know? Because the sickle is trusted in and a harvest is made. Many are going to agrue the timeframe of this,,,but hold on to this description Jesus gave to HIS FOLLOWERS in the "upper room".. His annoint sealed followers will go out and make disciples...the Gospel will then be preached from"midheaven" to all the earth. we then see the result and that is what looks like a wheat harvest,, and then a grape harvest...then we see the marriage supper is ready..this to me is what the 2nd Coming has come to represent to me. It is replay of what Jesus did in His earthly ministry. This time, the witnessing will be done by His First Fruits! Maranatha!! I do not know how to see the connection of Israel in the OT as being the believer. Scripture teaches that we are grafted in, meaning that we can take hold of God's promises of things like salvation and belonging to His kingdom. Yes, there were those in the OT that were saved by faith just as we are now. Throughout the OT, God always has a remnant who follow Him. I've heard it said that they looked forward to the Messiah and we look backward. But Israel as a whole was unfaithful. And yes, the remnant who believe (at His Second Coming) will come to the Supper. And yes, within many churches there are unbelievers. I use Church to mean believers in Christ. |
|
