dent
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Posts: 61
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Post by dent on May 30, 2018 6:10:19 GMT -6
It was a chronological order from the first OT man that died, Abel in righteousness, through Zechariah that died between the alter and the sanctuary. It is the entire grouping of OT martyrs thru those 2. The first and last. The Pharisees approved all the wickedness in the name of law all the way to killing Christ. Therefore, Christ condemned them and their generation for it. Can you please name a single other OT martyr please? Or refer to their tomb or Scriptural reference to any such tomb apart from your citation of Acts? Dent |
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Post by fitz on May 30, 2018 6:25:02 GMT -6
It is interesting that in the reference to these things given in Matthew, Jesus uses the Pharisee's own words to condemn them. This must have been a true saying of the Pharisee's. I mean, are you saying Jesus lied about it, or that we misunderstand the meaning of what He said?
Matthew 23:29–31
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
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Post by mike on May 30, 2018 6:55:26 GMT -6
Dent are you saying the prophets were killed in the sense that they were verbally martyred rather than physically? The allusion that there are no tombs for them connects this to metaphor
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dent
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Posts: 61
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Post by dent on May 30, 2018 7:00:22 GMT -6
Dent are you saying the prophets were killed in the sense that they were verbally martyred rather than physically? The allusion that there are no tombs for them connects this to metaphor Yes I am, To kill a prophet is to refuse to accept the Truth spoken by that prophet. Same apples to God. To refuse to believe Him is to Crucify him metaphorically speaking. That's what we did to Jesus. We didn't "lift him up" we rather "put him down" as in what a vet does to an animal. Fact is there are no Scripture references to any martyred prophets (apart from Jesus). Please correct me if I AM wrong. Dent |
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Post by mike on May 30, 2018 7:32:38 GMT -6
I am not aware, however it is possible I am not looking hard enough. However I would ask what was the point in bringing this up? Will you bring that to the new thread?
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dent
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Posts: 61
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Post by dent on May 30, 2018 7:44:10 GMT -6
I am not aware, however it is possible I am not looking hard enough. However I would ask what was the point in bringing this up? Will you bring that to the new thread? I AM hesitant to bring this "new thread" because it's going to be volcanic in its nature. It'll be THE Thread of all threads and if God gives success to my mission, it'll end all religious argument for all time. it'll cause our wonderful God to cease "smiting this land" of Edom "with a curse" such that it becomes Eden as was his plan in the Genesis, the Gospel as it was in the beginning. Please do not be offended by my forthright words. "Blessed are they who don't take offence". Dent |
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Post by venge on May 30, 2018 7:46:48 GMT -6
Why would Christ mention Abel’s actual death and Zechariah’s actual death as a metaphor for non deaths when their deaths were literal?
Abel was verbally martyred when the earth cried out for the bloodshed by Cain?
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Post by mike on May 30, 2018 7:51:23 GMT -6
dent - what you are saying here will certainly cause some reaction. Since you believe God has ordained you for this I expect you are prepared for not only in spirit and truth, but in the message. By all means deliver your message either within this thread or in a new one. Also please remember you're not standing in front of any of us physically speaking as the former prophets were. So I ask you articulate well enough that we could interpret any body language or emphasis you would have added verbally or otherwise
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dent
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Posts: 61
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Post by dent on May 30, 2018 8:07:09 GMT -6
dent - what you are saying here will certainly cause some reaction. Since you believe God has ordained you for this I expect you are prepared for not only in spirit and truth, but in the message. By all means deliver your message either within this thread or in a new one. Also please remember you're not standing in front of any of us physically speaking as the former prophets were. So I ask you articulate well enough that we could interpret any body language or emphasis you would have added verbally or otherwise Thank you very much brother, I shall start the "new" thread in God's timing at or before sundown tonight (my time) this Wed, 30 May 2018 = 16th of Sivan, 5778 . If for now it pleases you, I'd like to continue 'punting' the threads which I've already started, because there are points to be 'extracted' and expanded which I believe shall enrich my 'new' thread when I've got around to starting it. For now, let me please go beyond Malichi into Obediah and Jude which I'll prepare and post soon. Dent |
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dent
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Posts: 61
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Post by dent on May 30, 2018 9:02:17 GMT -6
Why would Christ mention Abel’s actual death and Zechariah’s actual death as a metaphor for non deaths when their deaths were literal? Abel was verbally martyred when the earth cried out for the bloodshed by Cain? I think you missed my point, that Abel was not killed by Jews. And that Zachariah was not a prophet. They are recorded as homicides but that's where "Truth" ends so far as my reading Dr Luke is concerned. So, you please tell me why Christ purportedly said what Dr Luke purports the Christ to have said. There were no Martyrs to Jews. Not according to Scriptures. And there are no tombs of prophets either in Scripture, nor in archaeology. Again, I stand to be corrected with evidence. Dent |
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dent
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Post by dent on May 30, 2018 9:15:05 GMT -6
Please let me elaborate, for the sake of pedantic detail that there is one incident of Martyrdom at the hands of the sons of Israel. It's recorded in Genesis, and commented upon in Hosea 6.
This is the reference in Genesis 34 (my paraphrase);-
Dinah the daughter of Leah, went out to visit the daughters of the land. 2 When Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, the prince of the land, saw her, he took her and lay with her by force. 3 He was deeply attracted to Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and loved the girl and spoke tenderly to her. 4 So Shechem spoke to his father Hamor, saying, “Get me this young girl for a wife.” 5 Jacob heard that he had defiled Dinah his daughter; but his sons were with his livestock in the field, so Jacob kept silent until they came in. 6 Then Hamor the father of Shechem went out to Jacob to speak with him. 7 The sons of Jacob came in from the field when they heard; and the men were grieved, and very angry because he had done a disgraceful thing in Israel by lying with Jacob’s daughter, for such a thing ought not to be done.
8 Hamor spoke with them, saying, “The soul of my son Shechem longs for your daughter; please give her to him in marriage. 9 Intermarry with us; give your daughters to us and take our daughters for yourselves. 10 Thus you shall live with us, and the land shall be before you; live and trade in it and acquire property in it. 11 Shechem also said to her father and to her brothers, “If I find favor in your sight, then I will give whatever you say to me. 12 Ask me ever so much bridal payment and gift, and I’ll oblige; but give me the girl in marriage.”
13 Jacob’s sons answered Shechem and his father Hamor with deceit, because he had defiled Dinah their sister. 14 They said to them, “We cannot do this thing, to give our sister to one who is uncircumcised, for that would be a disgrace to us. 15 Only on this we’ll consent: if you will become like us, in that every male of you be circumcised, 16 we’ll give our daughters to you, and we’ll take your daughters for ourselves, and we’ll live with you and become one people. 17 But if you will not listen to us to be circumcised, then we’ll take our daughter and go.”
18 Their words seemed reasonable to Hamor and Shechem, Hamor’s son. 19 The young man did not delay to do the thing, because he was delighted with Jacob’s daughter. Now he was more respected than all the household of his father. 20 So Hamor and his son Shechem came to the gate of their city and spoke to the men, saying, 21 “These men are friendly; therefore let them live in the land and trade in it, for behold, the land is large enough for them. Let us take their daughters in marriage, and give our daughters to them. 22 Only on this will the men consent to us to live with us, to become one people: that every male among us be circumcised as they are. 23 Will not their livestock and their property and all their animals be ours? Only let us consent to them, and they will live with us.” 24 All who went out of the gate of his city listened to Hamor and to his son Shechem, and every male was circumcised, all who went out of the gate of his city.
25 On the third day, when they were in pain, two of Jacob’s sons, Simeon and Levi, Dinah’s brothers, each took his sword and came upon the city unawares, and killed every male. 26 They killed Hamor and his son Shechem with the sword, and took Dinah from Shechem’s house. 27 Jacob’s sons came upon the slain and looted the city, because they had defiled their sister. 28 They took their flocks and their herds and their donkeys, and that which was in the city and that which was in the field; 29 and they captured and looted all their wealth and all their little ones and their wives, even all that in the houses. 30 Then Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, “You’ve brought trouble on me by making me odious among the inhabitants of the land, among the Canaanites and the Perizzites; and my men being few in number, they’ll gather together against me and attack me and I’ll be destroyed, I and my household.” 31 But they said, “Should he treat our sister as a harlot?”
Hosea described this action as "leaving bloody footprints by murderous priests" (again paraphrased).
The priests in question first weakened, by conversion, then murdered them, bringing shame on Israel. Exactly what was done to me!
Dent
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dent
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Posts: 61
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Post by dent on May 30, 2018 10:25:35 GMT -6
I am not aware, however it is possible I am not looking hard enough. However I would ask what was the point in bringing this up? Will you bring that to the new thread? Forgive me brother, for pushing the point, but no matter how hard you were to look, you won't find references to the physical deaths of any prophets by martyrdom at the hands of Jews and certainly not their tombs. So, the question is why do Matthew and Luke-Acts make such assertions? I'm almost ready to pose my question, but not quite. I shall be by close of day in about 4 to 5 hours time. I know exactly what to ask, because it was recorded long, long ago. Dent |
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Post by venge on May 30, 2018 10:36:32 GMT -6
Why would Christ mention Abel’s actual death and Zechariah’s actual death as a metaphor for non deaths when their deaths were literal? Abel was verbally martyred when the earth cried out for the bloodshed by Cain? I think you missed my point, that Abel was not killed by Jews. And that Zachariah was not a prophet. They are recorded as homicides but that's where "Truth" ends so far as my reading Dr Luke is concerned. So, you please tell me why Christ purportedly said what Dr Luke purports the Christ to have said. There were no Martyrs to Jews. Not according to Scriptures. And there are no tombs of prophets either in Scripture, nor in archaeology. Again, I stand to be corrected with evidence. Dent I had said Abel was killed because of his righteousness. He was a prophet because Christ included him and Zechariah in his speech. The Bible is not going to have every thing anyone wants. It’s meant to be everything you need to live, not a Bible archeological study guide. There are tombs all over Israel and Gaza supposing that they are genuine. But I am still not sure why this is an argument to something that doesn’t seem related to our: Salavation, Sanctification, Repentance or Tribulation. There is no great ark found. There is no spinning fire sword found. The angels bound in the river Euphrates are not found. The Bible says they exist, then they exist. In other verses God says to the Pharisees...your ancestors. Ancestor of the Jews. Now, maybe they did not identify as Jew before Eber, but by one family....they were. Then this same people, descendent of each other killed their prophets. That is, God”s spokesman. For anyone that speaks for God thru the Holy Spirit and not himself is a prophet! |
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Post by yardstick on May 30, 2018 19:19:31 GMT -6
Sorry to cut this thread short venge, and everyone else. It has been necessary to remove the OP from the boards. Those who wish to pursue further discussion, may do so by opening another thread. Thank you all for your patience and participation. |
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