Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?

stormyknight,
re: "I went looking and found this: www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/was-jesus-crucified-on-friday.phpI believe it is the examples that you were asking for to support the belief of a Friday Crucifixion and Sunday resurrection."

Actually, that's an issue for a different topic. This one is concerned with one issue and only one issue, i.e., examples which show that it was common to forecast or say that a daytme or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.

Hello rstrats , others,  

I think i understand stormyknight's response and I think I understand the "real issue"  of your thread.   

Any kind of precedent or actual passages of scripture or something else from historical sources that show a pattern or even an example where people would say a part of a day or any portion of the night time was used to count or describe the length of an event, but when that portion of the day or darkness was missing.    

I think the "real issue" you're getting at - is the problem of the missing portion.   The Friday crucifixion myth can't even give parts of three days, or parts of three nights.  

stormyknight, I didn't know that you were formerly Catholic/ raised Catholic.  That's interesting.   I lived with and worked in a strongly Culturally Catholic country in Europe for 12 1/2 years, and so that really resonates with me.  

***I'm not suggesting or implying in any way that what stormyknight is saying is false or incorrect - "that most on this forum would not agree with stance of the Catholic article".   

What I am saying is that it's so so very sad that the overwhelming majority of all Christians, - including Evangelicals currently believe and defend this indefensible myth, and it's basically 50% ignorance and 50% laziness.   Far easier to simply be spoon fed by the pastor, than to actually dig and study and do the research.  

The article itself had more holes than a block of Swiss cheese.   

Rstrats, and others following along, i want to break it down and explain it, but it takes several steps.    

First, we have to look at and dismantle the tired, fallacious argument that is perpetuated by millions of pastors, - who went to Seminary and are blatantly violating the very principles they were taught.    

1.  If you were to ask them- they would agree, that one of the most basic principles of Hermeneutics, [The study of the principles of Bible interpretation] is that explicitly clear passages, always trump, or take precedent over vague or unclear ones.    We interpret scripture with scripture.   
 Even the article - which was awful, said that when two passages appear to contradict, it means that we are not interpreting one of them correctly.  

The entire topic and myth of the Friday Crucifixion rises and falls on two key things.   
    1.  Blatant disregard for the basic principle of Bible interpretation and gross distortion of an actual phenomena - "Jewish Inclusive reckoning"
    2.  Appalling ignorance of Jewish Sabbaths/ Feast days - due directly to the hatred of Jews by the Catholic church, and their disdain for everything Jewish.  

Without fail, every single time, a pastor or someone tries to "defend" the notion of Friday crucifixion - they always raise the red herring of Jewish Inclusive reckoning, which is a real thing, - and this leads to your point - rstrats , .     

** The crucial point here is that most people don't even understand the real concept of Jewish Inclusive reckoning, and so they obviously don't know when it's being used falsely.   [You wouldn't be able to identify a false 100 zlotych currency note if you've never seen a real one.] 

As rstrats alluded, the huge elephant in the room is that the traditional version goes like this - 
Friday crucifixion - [Thus the misnomer Good Friday]    False.  Sunday morning resurrection.   Face Palm False.    Then, here is where they falsely use the concept of Jewish inclusive reckoning.   "Any part of a day, counts as a whole day- like a towing company counts time."  Your car gets towed at 11:00 Saturday night, while you're at a concert.  The towing company is closed Sunday, and they open at 7 Monday.    You go to get your car, at 8 AM and it's billed at $90.    [$30 dollars a day/ and any part of a day counts as a day - so they say 1 hr Sat = 1 day, Sunday = 1 day, and 1 hr Monday.     

So they say part of the evening daylight Friday counts as 1 day,  
Friday Night/ Saturday day counts as 1 day,  and 
Saturday night counts as 1 day - which is literally 1 day and 2 small portions of another day.  Bogus on so many levels.  

I have personally consulted multiple Jewish rabbis, and the fact is that any time the passage explicitly says 40 days and 40 nights, [time it rained in Noah's flood, the time Moses was on Mt Sinai, and the time Jesus was tempted in the wilderness] or  "3 days and 3 nights" -  The Sign of Jonah, - which Christ quoted, Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the great fish] -- Jewish inclusive reckoning does NOT apply.  It means 72 literal hours, or 40  24 hour days, or in the creation week, - Seven literal 24 hr days.     

The Second reason this falls apart is that there is not a shred of scripture that supports a Sunday resurrection, yet tens of millions of Christians blindly and stubbornly cling to this myth.   

Scripture says that the women went to the tomb and it was empty. 

The other huge issue is that the Catholic church and translators did not understand Jewish Sabbaths, and erroneously assumed that the Sabbath mentioned was the weekly sabbath - which is Sunset Friday to Sunset Saturday.     

**But in Jewish culture, every Feast day is Shabbat, Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Pentecost/Feast of Weeks, Feast of Trumpets/Yom Teruah, Day of Atonement/Yom Kippur, and Feast of Booths/Sukkot, and some of these, Unleavened Bread and Day of Atonement are High Sabbaths, in which no work can be done, not even cooking or making a fire.   So there are Six Annual Shabbat, plus Weekly Shabbat, plus extra holy days, which happen near the major feasts, such as Sabbath of the Red Heifer.   All are Shabbat, but not all are Saturday, and not all are High Sabbaths.   

The text is explicitly clear that there were three Sabbaths in the crucifixion week.  The word in Matthew 29 is Shabbaton -  After the Sabbaths, Plural.  First one was

• Passover - Nissan 14.   But this was not a High Sabbath - and was Preparation day for the next day - 
• Unleavened Bread, - which WAS a High Sabbath, - in which no work of any kind could be done - not cooking, not drawing water, and not burying bodies, and not buying or selling.  
• Weekly Sabbath - Sundown Friday night, to Sunset Saturday.  

Scripture says that the women bought spices after the Sabbath and says that they rested on the sabbath.   
They rested on the High Sabbath - Wednesday night/Thursday day, and then bought spices on Friday, before Sunset, which started the weekly Sabbath, and rested on the weekly Sabbath.    

A Friday scenario would be impossible - because they could not go out and buy spices after dark.  The only light besides the moon and stars were torches, and it wasn't safe to travel or carry money after dark, especially for women, and people would not go transport all their goods, and set up the market after dark on Saturday night, at the close of the weekly Sabbath.  They would wait until daylight on the First day of the Week.   

Another huge nail in the coffin of the Friday crucifixion is that in Jewish burial custom, the Spirit lingers near the body for three days, meaning they are in a coma- and thus resurrection was still possible.   Remember the story of Lazarus, - Jesus knew this and so he intentionally waited, and did not come to Lazarus right when he heard he was dying.   After three full days, the spirit departs from the body, and this means they are truly dead, -- Not in a coma, and resurrection is no longer possible.  Only God can raise the dead.   

This is also interesting to note that there are 3 times in scripture, 3 examples of people being dead for at least 3 full days.   
Jesus, 
Lazarus, 
the 2 witnesses in Revelation
and Jonah said he was dead, and in the place of the dead for 3 days and 3 nights.  

The most interesting thing, rstrats - is that the real use of Jewish Inclusive reckoning is also found in Jonah 3:3,4 - where the text mentions 3 days' journey.  It is in this context, where we see a phrase like "they traveled 3 days" or 3 days' journey"  - when Jewish reckoning applies, where any part of a day is counted as a day. . But it does NOT apply, when the text specifically states 40 days and 40 nights, or 3 days and 3 nights.  

Another example of what you're referring to, rstrats is in John 12:1  it says "Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany".   So this means any parts of the daylight or nighttime portion of the day.    
This also proves that a Friday crucifixion is totally impossible.   If you count backwards using your fingers  Friday, Thursday, Wednesday, Tuesday, Monday, Sunday,  [and it says "the next day, he came into Jerusalem", so that would be Triumphal Entry on Monday]

There is no example from scripture of the phrase 3 days or six days, or 40 days,  where an event is said to be three days, but yet it doesn't actually include part of the day -(a day is missing).       
In the Jonah passage, Jonah 3:3 and 3:4 where it says "3 days walk"  It has to include a day and parts of 2 days,  but it can't be Morning, afternoon and night.   

Maranatha,



   

Actually, for the purpose of this particular topic it's not.   Again, this one is concerned with one issue and only one issue, i.e., examples which show that it was common to forecast or say that a daytme or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur. 

stormyknight, spot on, bro. That's exactly what I said as well. No one can give scripture references for things that don't exist.
rstrats, my brother, perhaps you could say it another way or give a hypothetical example.
I'm trying to understand and I've given an example but it would help if you re-word the question.
I'll use the example of Jonah as it relates to your question, but your original opening thread was in the context of the Friday crucifixion which you also seem to agree is a myth/ doesn't add up at many many levels.
So we take the passage in Jonah 3 where it says "3 days walk" or 3 days journey, and let's say the average time is 14 hours of daylight from 6 am to 8 pm and they kept walking all night so from 8 pm to 6 Am = another 10 hours, and then five more of the daytime. Actual total hours is 14+10+5= 29 hours. No part of the daytime or no part of the night of the 3rd day was actually involved.
But this, my brother,is not how Inclusive reckoning works. Its one full day - 24 hours evening and morning and then part of the 2nd day and part of another day, not two parts of the same day.
Let's say they start at 4 pm. 4 - 8 on Wednesday, so that's part of Wednesday. They continue walking sunset Wednesday to Sunset Thursday, so that's a full day/night,and they finish walking around Nineveh at 1 am Friday. From sunset, 8 pm Thursday to 1 am = 5 hours-- which is part of the third day.

But as I've said -Rabbis and Jewish scholars agree that this is not the case with the crucifixion.
Christ and Jonah both explicitly say three days and three nights, so the red herring argument doesn't even apply here.

The whole entire myth falls apart there.
But then, just ask them what is the Sign of Jonah, or better yet, ask them what is the only sign that Christ gave to prove his Messiahship? 3 days and 3 nights.
They also can't explain the spice dilemma because it's impossible to buy spices after dark after the weekly Sabbath ended on Saturday at Sunset.
Brother, no such examples exist for the scenario you mention.
But honestly, there are much bigger, more important huge holes in the Friday crucifixion theory, which could sink the Titanic.
Asking for an example of a scenario that doesn't exist is a bit like focusing on a tiny dripping leak in a bathroom sink on the Upper deck, while the ship is going down.
Honestly, the Friday myth is literally indefensible when you apply the basic principles of Hermeneutics and take the clear words of Christ himself.
I've heard it said that it's harder to give up tradition than addictive street drugs.
Remember brother, it's a lot of holes and a lot of moving parts to get a person to just let go of something they've believed all their lives.
The real issue is that it's much easier to just repeat a false teaching than to refute it to 95% of all their family and Church friends who believe the same thing.

A better strategy is to simply show them from John 12:1-2 how a Friday crucifixion is impossible to have a Palm Sunday. Count back From Friday and six days is Sunday. The "next day" in the text - means Triumphal entry is Monday.

If they count back starting with Thursday-it gets worse. This lands on Saturday and it was impossible because it was more than 2 miles- much more than a Sabbath day's journey from Bethany to Jerusalem.
I hope you are encouraged to dig and do the research and will stand on scripture and not tradition of men.

Blessings.
Your watchman Brother in Tennessee.

Disciple4life

And remember, that "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.

That would be an issue for a different topic. This one is directed to those who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.



BTW, while off topic, if the count started on Thursday night, then it would include that night, Thursday day, Friday night, Friday day, Saturday night, Saturday day, Sunday night and possibly early Sunday day.