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Post by venge on May 17, 2018 17:31:20 GMT -6
Firstly, I would like to add the scripture we will use to define the 7 heads of the Beast and lay some ground rules. A few ground rules: - If you are going to label something a head, you must use scripture OR things biblically related.
- No using things outside of the bible that you try to link to the bible.
- Must stay in context
Scripture (KJV):
Daniel 2:32-35 and 38-45
Daniel 7:2-8 and 23-25
Opening Verses Used above, will add others as I progress!
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Post by venge on May 17, 2018 17:31:46 GMT -6
In Daniel 2:32-35, we see the below, An image with 4 features only: - Head of Gold
- Breast and Arms of Silver
- Thighs of Brass
- Legs of Iron and Feet part Iron and Clay
Interestingly when we see 4 parts, all of a sudden people talk about the Legs and the feet being separate. Or the legs are 2 legs and they are resembling different cities. Let us stick with what the text states. The Head did not talk of eyes, nose or ears or mouth. The head is Gold. That is it. 1 Part describing Babylon and its King. The Chest and Arms (Not the fingers, not the hands) describe Media-Persia and its King The thighs of Brass describe Greece and its King. (notice both thighs don't describe 2 different things). The legs of Iron and Feet of Iron and Clay describe the final unknown kingdom. The legs are not split as the thighs and the arms are not split. The legs and feet are together in the same empire. Just as "his breast AND his arms of silver" are together, so to are the Legs of Iron and Feet of Iron and clay. We have 4 world Kingdoms that are against God's kingdom. When God's kingdom comes, it breaks not just the Iron/clay Kingdom, but all the kingdoms at once showing all the kingdoms are part of the final kingdom. When we get to the next verse in Daniel, We learn that the head of Gold is as I had posted above, Nebuchanezzar and his Babylonian Empire. We know from Daniel that the silver is Media-Persia that removes Babylon from power in Daniel 8:20-21, And following that is Greece with its king, Alexander the Great. This is common knowledge for most. - The 1st kingdom is Babylonian
- The 2nd kingdom is Media-Persia
- The 3rd kingdom is Grecian
When we get to the fourth, people insert Rome. Now the reason for this is that Rome succeeded Greece and Rome was responsible for burning the temple and Jerusalem in 70AD. But, that is assuming a natural progression. Let us look deeper into the text. In between verse 39 and 40 above there seems to be a pause. We learn of the characteristic of the beast. The legs are as strong as iron but the feet are Iron and clay to show they don't mix well. I had related this is another thread as using an analogy on America. Americas military is as strong as Iron, but our Congress is like iron and Clay mixed. They cannot agree on anything yet we are still very strong militarily. Who would make war with us who would be able to stand? Sound familiar? Edit to add below on 5/18 09:38 AMThroughout the text above, we gain an understanding of this final beast’s characteristics before we name it. This is important as we march toward its heads. We know it encompasses 3 previous empires within it. Geographically, if you have a map in the back of your bible, you may see the area of Babylon, Persia and Greece’s control. I’d like to talk about these areas next. Babylon: The empire of Babylon consist of the following countries today: 1. Parts of eastern Turkey 2. Israel 3. Syria 4. Lebanon 5. Iraq Media-Persia: The allied empire of Media-Persia consist of the following countries today: 1. Northern Greece: Macedonia 2. Bulgaria 3. Turkey 4. Syria 5. Lebanon 6. Israel 7. Palestine 8. Jordan 9. Armenia 10. Georgia 11. Chechnya 12. Azerbaijan 13. Iran 14. Iraq 15. Kuwait 16. Egypt 17. Turkmenistan 18. Afghanistan 19. Uzbekistan 20. Tajikistan 21. Kazahkistan 22. Parts of Libya and Sudan 23. Pakistan Grecian empire: Consisting today of: 1. The entirety of the Persian empires land and all major cities in Egypt to Include Libya 2. Areas outside of Macedonia including southern Greece This is all Daniels statue consist of. Gold, Silver and Brass. When we get to Iron, we need to look at an empire that consists of parts of the above nations. If a nation is not listed above, how can we scripturally add it to a 4th beast? Though we realize in 2018 there are many countries not known to the world at that time, we still have Daniel’s statue. If we use a nation as the last empire not listed above, how can we show that it fulfills Daniel’s interpretation of the dream where all 3 parts make up the last as they all break by a rock cut without hands? A future empire would have to control or have controlled the same countries above. Failure to meet all geographic land would deem that empire as not logically fulfilling the prophecy. When we get to Daniel 7, we see in verse 2 that four winds of heaven (describing the north, south, east and west) cover the great sea. This sea is explained throughout scripture. Christ explains in Matthew13:47 that the world is the sea and he tosses a net into it catching good and bad fish. He only keeps the good fish. With this analogy, we can surmise that Daniel’s great sea could likely be interpreted as the world or nations of the world; mankind. With the description of north, S, E, and West, we know this would encompass our globe or at least the known world at that time. In verse 3, we learn all 4 beast kingdoms come from the sea. Well, it makes sense recognizing that empires form from mankind and differing nations. In verse 4, we see the head of gold once more. The Babylonian empire comes out of the sea of mankind thru modern Iraq. Though it had kings prior to Nebuchadnezzar, it was not given a heart till he reigned. Every empire has a king and every empire is a kingdom. This time, the head of gold is also identified as a lion. In verse 5 we see Media-Persia, the silver empire, and it is described as a bear holding 3 ribs in its mouth and raised up on one side. The raised up was symbolic because the Persian empire was stronger then the Medes. It symbolizes 2 allied kingdoms, one stronger then the other but making 1 beast. If they were equal, the bear wouldn’t be raised on one side mirroring the horns of the ram in Daniel 8:3-4 showing dominance. In verse 6, we finally get back to the kingdom of brass, the Grecian empire. This time, it’s shown that this beast is described as a leopard. It has 4 wings and 4 heads. First, it is important to point out all 3 beasts thus far are carnivorous animals. They all are meat eaters. They all destroy their prey. They don’t play well with others outside their kind. Christ calls his people sheep. We are all identified as animals/beasts but some are gentle and others not so much. Sheep are an passive beast that eat grass. They are herbivores. More importantly, his sheep do not murder. They are not thieves and they are not looking for their own interests. Lions, leopards and bears however, do what they want when they want. They are not as easily tamed nor are they safe pets to have around children. Yet sheep are. All 3 beasts are a metaphor to show an inclination against God’s people. Edit to add below on 5/18 14:17 PMAs I continue, I am taking you on a mundane journey (mundane because many know most of this but some may not) throughout the entire beast to get to the heads. I think it is important as the heads are reflective of the beast. Ok, now back to the work!!! Interestingly, the leopard possesses 4 wings. What's the significance of 4 wings? We can look to Daniel 8:21-22 for the answer. When Alexander the Great had died as king of the Grecian empire, his Generals took control of his kingdom. Four kingdoms rose out of his 1 empire symbolizing the 4 wings. The leopard was also symbolized as having 4 heads that go with the 4 wings (Kingdoms). The 4 heads were: Ptolemy, Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucas I. It is important to recognize, Babylon was taken by Media-Persia. Media-Persia was taken by Greece. Greece was never taken by anyone. It's king died and its empire split into 4 kingdoms. There was never a succession from the 3rd part of Daniel's statue to the 4rth. Alexander died and before his empire could be defeated, he died and it was fractured. That's why the verse stated, " four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power."Back to Daniel 7:17, The 4 beast identified as Lion (Babylon), Bear (Media-Persia) and Leopard (Grecian) and the 4rth beast I haven't spoken of YET, are 4 kings that arise out of the earth. Notice here that it is describing the 4 beasts from Daniel 7:4-6 which were just told they are kingdoms, yet this verse in Dan 7:17 says they are 4 kings that arise out of the earth. Why would the great beasts arise out of the sea and out of the earth? Remember in verse 3 it was said, We have already established that the kingdoms themselves from mankind arise out of the sea. We have already established what a sea can be. Why then does it state 4 beasts also come from the earth? It is because the 4 beasts that arise out of the earth are men. Mankind is shown to come from the earth. Genesis 2:7
Psalm 103:14
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Isaiah 64:8
1 Corinthians 15:47
Mankind is of the earth as has been established. We are also beasts as I had stated earlier, some are sheep, some are wolves and some others are lions. It is only fitting then that the 4 beast that arise out of the earth are established as 4 men that will rule the beast from the sea identified as a kingdom. As we have 4 kingdoms that come from the great sea and we have 4 kings that arise out of the earth. We have already identified the 3 kingdoms. The 4 kings we know to be are: Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus the Great, Alexander the Great and the Man of Sin.
Now we get to the 4rth beast. All that waiting and we have such a long way to go....in Dan 7:7 we learn of him when the bible says,
The beast here is identified as Iron for strength, diverse from the others and it had 10 horns. That's all we have to go on? No because in Daniel 7:19 we learn,
The 4rth beast kingdom had:
- Teeth like Iron
- Nails of Brass
- Devoured and break into pieces
- Stamps the residue with its feet
What is the significance of that? The teeth of iron mimicks the representation of the 4rth beast as Iron, the nails of brass resemble the Grecian as brass, stamping the residue with its feet resembles a bear as when they attack they stand on their hind legs and stamp with their front legs. The lion is symbolic of an animal that devours its prey. We can think back to Daniel's statue and how all 3 kingdoms represent the 4rth kingdom and God's rock will smash the feet shattering the entire image of gold, silver, brass and iron at once.
This final kingdom also has 10 horns. Daniel 7:7 says,
Following in verse 8 we see,
First, the beast comes out of the sea and has 10 horns. Then, we learn sometime later that another horn comes up. An 11th horn. It appears by the text that the 11th horn did not start the final kingdom but comes in after it is already made because "there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots". There were 3 of the first 10 horns. The 11th horn removes 3 horns from power. This shows the 11th horn is not a part of the final kingdom till after that kingdom is established. The 11th horn is identified as: eyes like a man and a mouth speaking great things. Daniel 7 gives more information about theses horns in verse 20-21,
The 11th horn is now identified as: eyes like a man and a mouth speaking great things; and now had a look more stout then his fellows. This same horn (11th) made war with the saints and prevailed against them. Notice here the beast of the sea did not make war with the saints and prevailed, but the 11th horn did! The beast kingdom that arises out of the sea was the, " fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts", but it was the 11th horn that "had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them."
We continue in Daniel 7:24-25,
The 10 horns are identified as 10 kings. The other that comes after them (11th horn) shall be the one that "shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws:" The 11th horn is then identified as the man of sin from 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Remember back to the original text. We have 4 beast that comes from the great sea but, we also have 4 kings that arise from the earth. The man of sin is that 4rth king that will remove 3 of the original horns (out of 10) and take control of the kingdom. He then becomes the 4th king that arises from the earth. The king will rule the 4th beast (kingdom) from the sea. Therefore, we have a beast from the sea (the final kingdom) and a beast from the earth (the 11th horn).
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Post by venge on May 19, 2018 8:21:36 GMT -6
Edit to add below on 5/19 10:21 AMOk, I had some coffee and I am ready to continue. Let me cover a few highlights: We reviewed Daniel's statue of 4 world kingdoms. Daniel shows us that each of the 4 kingdoms from the statue come from the sea. He also shows us 4 kings from each kingdom arise from the earth. - Kingdoms = Come from the sea (Dan 7:2-3)
- Kings/Rulers = Come from the earth. (Dan 7:17)
We also looked at the final kingdom and its makeup vs the other kingdoms. Simply put, the Legs are not differentiated or split symbolizing two different components. They only symbolize the state as we progress from Head to Toe and they symbolize the Iron for the strength of this kingdom. The same for the feet/toes. They are still connected to the legs and are not split into different sections or different eras of time. They are still part of the same kingdom as the legs (the 4th kingdom) yet they are mixed between 2 materials that are not compatible with each other symbolizing strength and weakness. Daniel defines this as a kingdom with unbelievable strength but its 10 toes most likely representing the 10 horns of the beast on Daniel's statue show its people do not agree on the same thing. I even gave an illustration of how it may appear in the USA.
Next, we identified current countries today that make up the first 3 kingdoms of Daniel's statue. Please take note. Thus far, There is no North America. No South America, No Western Europe. No United Kingdom.
They are all thus far the Middle East, Asia, North Africa and parts of Greece.
I had also spoken of the identifiers of the 11th horn. What he does, where he comes from and his placement as a horn on the beast; after the beast has already been around on the earth for some time.
Next, I would like to move to talk more of the horn through varies scripture references in order to eliminate any confusion on where I am going with this study. Stay Tuned!
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blur
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Post by blur on May 19, 2018 11:55:08 GMT -6
Yes, there has to be an element of illegitimacy, because God gives people their governments to obey. If Satan's government was given by God, everyone could happily take the mark of the beast, because it would be ordained by God.
Who is the 'worthless shepherd' of Zech 11, if not what is typically called the 'antichrist'? It is that individual who has the 'mortal head wound', part of the 'beast from the sea'.
I looked at his site, wow, so much commercialization, so much bad teaching found in a short amount of space.
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blur
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Post by blur on May 19, 2018 12:11:07 GMT -6
My response was clipped, so cont'd from above:
The beast from the earth kingdom I addressed elsewhere, but simply: there are 3 'kingdoms' - heaven, earth, sea. Trumpets 1-4 refers to the 1/3 portion of the kingdom of heaven on earth which is starting because the Satan has been cast out of it. the beast from the sea kingdom & earth kingdom comprise a 1/3 each to round out the 3 portions.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
At the end of 69 weeks from the 70 years marker (Dan 9:2), this is where the messiah (not Jesus) will be anointed - this is the 7th head of Satan. We will see what occurs at the 7 weeks marker very soon (June 8, 2018). It will take 70 weeks to rectify this transgression (Dan 9:24).
the 11th horn becomes the 7th head after replacing the 7th head. It is the 8th head through time, but it is still the 7th head: after the 7th head is removed, the 11th horn becomes the leader of the dragon: 1 head for the dragon, 1 head for the lion, 1 head for the bear, 4 heads for the leopard = 7 heads, 10 horns.
Huh? Heads are kings
Rev 17:
9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is,
the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.
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Post by mike on May 19, 2018 14:33:51 GMT -6
blur please clarify "Messiah" (not Jesus) for me At the end of 69 weeks from the 70 years marker (Dan 9:2), this is where the messiah (not Jesus) will be anointed - this is the 7th head of Satan
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blur
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Post by blur on May 19, 2018 17:18:01 GMT -6
blur please clarify "Messiah" (not Jesus) for me At the end of 69 weeks from the 70 years marker (Dan 9:2), this is where the messiah (not Jesus) will be anointed - this is the 7th head of Satan
John 5:43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
Have the Jews received a messiah yet? (have they anointed someone, indicating that they think this is the messiah) No. Will they, yes. So, just because they will say that this person is the messiah, just because they anoint someone as the messiah, that doesn't make it so. Right?
the 7th head of Satan is anointed as the messiah. Pretty much the definition of 'antichrist', yes?
Satan wants to fulfill prophecy also, 'showing he is God', 'proving that he is the messiah' by the fulfillment of a certain understanding of Daniel 9.
Here is how I view Daniel 9 in the context of the 7 heads:
2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. [...]
24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.
25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
[70 years in this context either means April 19/ 20, 2018 (aka 5 Iyyar, 5778 which is 70 Hebrew calendar years after 5 Iyyar, 5708, aka May 14, 1948) or May 13, 2018. The evidence better fits a starting date of April 19/ 20, 2018.
This is the 7th head of Satan.]
26 And after sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.
[62 weeks after Aug 16, 2019, Oct. 23, 2020, the anointed 7th head receives his mortal head wound (?) (aka is 'cut off' and resurrects). 8 weeks until 'the end' (which finishes out 70 weeks after the transgression of anointing the 7th head.)
27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
[Dec 18, 2020, the 8th head (the 'prince to come') replaces the 7th head of Satan (the 11th horn takes over 3 horns to get: 10 horns - 3 horns taken over = 7 kings with the 8th head ruling.
the 8th head breaks the 'covenant' in the middle of 1 week, literally 7 days - breaks the covenant 3.5 days later on Dec 21, 2020. The rest of the sequence is described in the Sign of the Son of Man thread unsealed.boards.net/thread/1391/sign-son-man-heaven
the 'desolator' from Dan 9:27 is the 'false prophet', beast from the earth. (It is highly likely that the 7th head will confirm a covenant also)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2018 5:11:42 GMT -6
{....}
Here is how I view Daniel 9 in the context of the 7 heads:
2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. [...]
24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.
25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
[70 years in this context either means April 19/ 20, 2018 (aka 5 Iyyar, 5778 which is 70 Hebrew calendar years after 5 Iyyar, 5708, aka May 14, 1948) or May 13, 2018. The evidence better fits a starting date of April 19/ 20, 2018.
This is the 7th head of Satan.]
26 And after sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.
[62 weeks after Aug 16, 2019, Oct. 23, 2020, the anointed 7th head receives his mortal head wound (?) (aka is 'cut off' and resurrects). 8 weeks until 'the end' (which finishes out 70 weeks after the transgression of anointing the 7th head.)
27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
[Dec 18, 2020, the 8th head (the 'prince to come') replaces the 7th head of Satan (the 11th horn takes over 3 horns to get: 10 horns - 3 horns taken over = 7 kings with the 8th head ruling.
the 8th head breaks the 'covenant' in the middle of 1 week, literally 7 days - breaks the covenant 3.5 days later on Dec 21, 2020. The rest of the sequence is described in the Sign of the Son of Man thread unsealed.boards.net/thread/1391/sign-son-man-heaven
the 'desolator' from Dan 9:27 is the 'false prophet', beast from the earth. (It is highly likely that the 7th head will confirm a covenant also)
{...}
I am specifically referring to the blue labeled parts above. As far as I follow your ( blur) thoughts, you are saying the 70 yrs started with the (re-)declaration of the state of Israel in modern times. This may be a possibility, I would call it a double fulfilment.
And you are saying, the 70 weeks started right after the 70yrs? If it were so, then what event marks V25 "...that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one......there shall be 7 weeks (+ 62 weeks)"? Or how does this verse fit into your explanation?
The Knesset gave order to rebuild the war torn Jewish quarter on 1st April 1969.
This seems the only valid (if any) marker for V25 in todays context, because Jerusalems Old City was not under Jewish dominion in 1948.
Maybe, I missed something. Can you help me out here?
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blur
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Post by blur on May 20, 2018 8:35:58 GMT -6
{....}
Here is how I view Daniel 9 in the context of the 7 heads:
2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. [...]
24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.
25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
[70 years in this context either means April 19/ 20, 2018 (aka 5 Iyyar, 5778 which is 70 Hebrew calendar years after 5 Iyyar, 5708, aka May 14, 1948) or May 13, 2018. The evidence better fits a starting date of April 19/ 20, 2018.
This is the 7th head of Satan.]
26 And after sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.
[62 weeks after Aug 16, 2019, Oct. 23, 2020, the anointed 7th head receives his mortal head wound (?) (aka is 'cut off' and resurrects). 8 weeks until 'the end' (which finishes out 70 weeks after the transgression of anointing the 7th head.)
27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
[Dec 18, 2020, the 8th head (the 'prince to come') replaces the 7th head of Satan (the 11th horn takes over 3 horns to get: 10 horns - 3 horns taken over = 7 kings with the 8th head ruling.
the 8th head breaks the 'covenant' in the middle of 1 week, literally 7 days - breaks the covenant 3.5 days later on Dec 21, 2020. The rest of the sequence is described in the Sign of the Son of Man thread unsealed.boards.net/thread/1391/sign-son-man-heaven
the 'desolator' from Dan 9:27 is the 'false prophet', beast from the earth. (It is highly likely that the 7th head will confirm a covenant also)
{...}
I am specifically referring to the blue labeled parts above. As far as I follow your ( blur ) thoughts, you are saying the 70 yrs started with the (re-)declaration of the state of Israel in modern times. This may be a possibility, I would call it a double fulfilment.
And you are saying, the 70 weeks started right after the 70yrs? If it were so, then what event marks V25 "...that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one......there shall be 7 weeks (+ 62 weeks)"? Or how does this verse fit into your explanation?
The Knesset gave order to rebuild the war torn Jewish quarter on 1st April 1969.
This seems the only valid (if any) marker for V25 in todays context, because Jerusalems Old City was not under Jewish dominion in 1948.
Maybe, I missed something. Can you help me out here?
Here is some more from Daniel 9
the 'word' to restore Jerusalem doesn't go out from men, it goes out from God in response to the prayer.
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blur
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Post by blur on May 20, 2018 8:45:50 GMT -6
venge, I'm not trying to derail your thread. Just trying to put a context for the dragon/ 4th beast. Is it here already? If not, when does it come? That's not clear to me.
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Post by venge on May 21, 2018 4:17:26 GMT -6
venge, I'm not trying to derail your thread. Just trying to put a context for the dragon/ 4th beast. Is it here already? If not, when does it come? That's not clear to me. I am not done with my report so forgive me but I will not be answering questions at this time because I don’t want it derailed to which it is becoming. I will answer your 1 and be done. The heads which I have not even got to yet, but you insist, are mountains and kings but when I had stated it is not a man I am referring to the identity of the 7 heads themselves, not who rules them. This is why I had said previously the 6th is Rome. Of course Rome had a ruler. The significance was with the ruling party over who ruled it. There is a reason for that. 2 reasons actually. We cannot say Rome is 6 and man of sin is 7th. Don’t confuse men and ruling parties. Now I am done. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 21, 2018 17:18:44 GMT -6
venge , I am trying to follow along...seems like good stuff to ponder... and blur , there are some things there you stated that are kinda interesting to me too. Can I make a request? for the reader trying to follow along, it is difficult to see who is who when an entire post is quoted and commented on within the quote or I have to scroll forever to see the rebuttal... Since venge is putting out a gob of stuff, can those who have a differing thought please only quote those specific sentences and not the entire post? So, highlight, copy, paste the comment in your reply, then, rehighlight that person's sentence/comment and select the quote bubble. It keep the conversation in a more tidy way and those following are not bogged down with an entire quoted post... just me,,tired eyes...lots of scripture to meditate and follow, ya know...and my mouse gets tired... so here is an example: I saw something else within the scriptures and thought I'd let you gnaw on this one, pun intended: venge quoted scripture and said this: If the sea represents the kingdoms, and the earth represents mankind, could not the rib represent woman? Gen 2:21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.I am still testing some waters on this theory: woman/women represent religion thruout the scriptures.. This is not of my own research, but it was suggested to me and I am starting to see a pattern for this, and coming to agree with this thought. Could it be that this beast like a bear has 3 religious entities, harlots if you will..devouring much flesh with false doctrine of works or falsehood..just tossing this around.. By my own memory I am not strong on Daniel other than the infamous CH 9..
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Post by venge on May 22, 2018 13:09:43 GMT -6
hhh venge , I am trying to follow along...seems like good stuff to ponder... and blur , there are some things there you stated that are kinda interesting to me too. Can I make a request? for the reader trying to follow along, it is difficult to see who is who when an entire post is quoted and commented on within the quote or I have to scroll forever to see the rebuttal... Since venge is putting out a gob of stuff, can those who have a differing thought please only quote those specific sentences and not the entire post? So, highlight, copy, paste the comment in your reply, then, rehighlight that person's sentence/comment and select the quote bubble. It keep the conversation in a more tidy way and those following are not bogged down with an entire quoted post... just me,,tired eyes...lots of scripture to meditate and follow, ya know...and my mouse gets tired... so here is an example: I saw something else within the scriptures and thought I'd let you gnaw on this one, pun intended: venge quoted scripture and said this: If the sea represents the kingdoms, and the earth represents mankind, could not the rib represent woman? Gen 2:21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.I am still testing some waters on this theory: woman/women represent religion thruout the scriptures.. This is not of my own research, but it was suggested to me and I am starting to see a pattern for this, and coming to agree with this thought. Could it be that this beast like a bear has 3 religious entities, harlots if you will..devouring much flesh with false doctrine of works or falsehood..just tossing this around.. By my own memory I am not strong on Daniel other than the infamous CH 9.. **Deeply apologize for my lack of response to the thread the last few days. I have been sick and my family has had some health issues sadly. I had to put off a lengthy text because of it but stay tuned, I promise to continue and answer questions afterwards. Your thought on the ribs is interesting! I will be honest, I had not thought of it that way. But, when God made women, he took 1 rib from man. This is 3 ribs in the mouth of the bear to denote he ate the meat off it and all that is left is bones. Three bones to be precise. That is why it was said "devour much flesh". I happen to believe that the 3 bones symbolize: Egypt, Lydia and Babylon. These are the nations and areas where the Mede-Persian alliance crushed their enemies. A few commentators positions: |
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Post by venge on May 26, 2018 17:31:31 GMT -6
The 11th Horn of the Beast of the Sea
Edit: 5/26/18 @ 7:22pm
First, let me post some scripture related to the man of sin.
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Revelation 13:5
2 Thessalonians 2:8 Revelation 13:13-15 It is interesting that the 11th horn is said to be the son of perdition. If he is the son, who is the father? In Rev 11:17 we learn that, The beast of the sea becomes perdition. Perdition is defined as utter destruction according to Webster's Dictionary. Does the beast of the sea becoming utter destruction than have a son that is perdition himself as per 2 Thess 2:3? Of course the beast of the sea did not give birth to the 11th horn but it can be interpreted that the beast comes first as father, then the son comes after. We have a father, son and holy ghost. So to does our enemy. They have a father of destruction named the beast of the sea, a son being the 11th horn and a evil power named Satan helping both. But I wont go off on that as it is not as important then understanding text. In Rev 13:5, we see the beast of the sea was given a mouth. The mouth piece of the beast is the one who will command. Now, some believe a view of a "leader and a false prophet". I do not follow that model. This is because nowhere in scripture are the 2 identified together. There is a beast of the sea, and a beast of the earth. As I had showed above, one is a kingdom, one is a man. Even in Daniel, he shows there are 4 kingdoms and 4 kings. The last kingdom will have 1 king as per Daniel. No scripture ever identifies a leader and a religious leader as separate. So let us look at what the horn does. In Rev 13:5 the horn: - speaking great things
- speaks blasphemies
- power was given unto him to continue forty and two months
In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 - He is the son of utter destruction
In 2 Thessalonians 2:8 - whose coming is after the working of Satan
- all power from Satan
- signs from Satan
- False Wonders
When we look at Rev 13:13-15 and it talks of the false prophet, we see: - he doeth great wonders
- he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth
- deceives men by miracles which he had power to do
- he had power to give life unto the image of the beast
Interestingly, In 2 Thessalonians and Rev 13, both the false prophet and the man of sin do great wonders. Both receive power. One can do signs and the other make fire come down from heaven.
When we look into Daniel 8:9-12, The horn throws down the host of heaven. It magnifies his own name to be equal to God and it removes the sacrifice and oblation. This mimicks the same mouth in Rev 13:5 where the mouth [the 11th horn] speaks great things and blasphemies. He does this for 1260 days. In 2 Thessalonians 2:6-10 we see the same horn. 2 Thessalonians backs up the man of sin works with Satan. But this man of sin does so with power, signs and false wonders! No different then the false prophet that does false wonders/signs that even the elect may be deceived. Some have asked how do we know he is an Antichrist though? Daniel 8:25 Opposing Christ makes him an Antichrist. Because we know in 1 John 2:22, 1 John 2:18 continues explaining the man of sin is the Antichrist, I understand for some, they choose not to believe and would rather think of a leader and a false prophet and a kingdom. If we use this model, what does the kingdom come from? If we say the sea, what does the leader come from? We know the false prophet comes from the earth. But the leader does not come from anything under this idea. As a matter of fact, the leader we can surmise is the mouth but it does not say where he comes from. Why would the false prophet be given a large section of text in revelation and outside verses of false wonders, signs, power of Satan etc...and nothing given to the mouth but a few sentences.... I have spoken on this before, but it is hard to grasp if the 11th horn is part of the beast of the sea, how does the 11th horn being the Antichrist then also become the beast of the sea. There are only 2 beast. 1 from the earth and 1 from the sea. Otherwise the beast of the earth is the Antichrist. The 11th horn also must uproot 3 previous horns of the first 10 horns of the beast. If the Antichrist was the beast of the sea, then who is the 11th horn? If each horn is a man as per Daniel, and we have 11 horns (11 men), can 11 men be part of 1 man? If so, why say one beast is from the sea and another from the earth? There must be a reason for using earth and sea. Obviously, both beast are different from each other by more then physical features, powers or characteristics. It is because both beasts are so different, one is a man and one is not 1 man but a kingdom of men. In Rev 15:2, Believers of God gain victory over the beast of the sea. We know it is the beats of the sea because the beast of the earth is the one who makes all worship the beast of the sea and makes a mark for it. No one gets victory of the false prophet. If you read my writings on the mark of the beast on a previous thread, you would understand that I place the mark and worship of the beast as in your heart and not a physical mark. (http://unsealed.boards.net/thread/1095/calculating-number?page=5) In Rev 19:19-20 we see the beast of the sea and the beast of the earth again. Some have an issue with this text as they believe it shows both beasts are men. That is not how I interpret what the text says. 2 things were captured. The beast of the sea and the beast of the earth. Notice the beast of the sea is never given a name. But the beast of the earth is, the false prophet. The false prophet does signs for the beast. The beast does not have that power. They are then both thrown into the lake of fire. Can a kingdom be destroyed by God to be cast into the lake of fire? Surely it can. Why would God destroy a kingdom and toss it into the lake of fire? Because God is setting up his own kingdom to replace it! And his kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom. Rev 11:15
Stay Tuned for More!!!! Taking a quick break!!!
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blur
New Member
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Post by blur on May 26, 2018 19:06:05 GMT -6
lots of problems here. there are 2 individuals: Death & hades; Abaddon & Apollyon; man of sin & son of perdition; antichrist (aka mortally head wounded individual) & false prophet. Why?
Revelation is patterned after the Deuteronomy blessings & curses for faithfulness/ unfaithfulness. Read Deut 28-32 esp.
Deut 28
25 “The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them. And you shall be a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 And your dead body shall be food for all birds of the air and for the beasts of the earth, and there shall be no one to frighten them away.
[...] 36 “The Lord will bring you and your king whom you set over you to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone. 37 And you shall become a horror, a proverb, and a byword among all the peoples where the Lord will lead you away.
The original pattern here is apostate 10 tribes Israel leaves Benjamin & Judah and sets up their own king (read 10 horns then 11th horn). Then they are taken over by the Assyrian as punishment by God (read False Prophet who makes them serve other gods of wood & stone).
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