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Post by venge on May 27, 2018 12:31:58 GMT -6
lots of problems here. there are 2 individuals: Death & hades; Abaddon & Apollyon; man of sin & son of perdition; antichrist (aka mortally head wounded individual) & false prophet. Why?
Revelation is patterned after the Deuteronomy blessings & curses for faithfulness/ unfaithfulness. Read Deut 28-32 esp.
Deut 28
25 “The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them. And you shall be a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 And your dead body shall be food for all birds of the air and for the beasts of the earth, and there shall be no one to frighten them away.
[...] 36 “The Lord will bring you and your king whom you set over you to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone. 37 And you shall become a horror, a proverb, and a byword among all the peoples where the Lord will lead you away.
The original pattern here is apostate 10 tribes Israel leaves Benjamin & Judah and sets up their own king (read 10 horns then 11th horn). Then they are taken over by the Assyrian as punishment by God (read False Prophet who makes them serve other gods of wood & stone).
Blur I will redirect you back to what I told you before. Thank you |
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blur
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Post by blur on May 27, 2018 15:46:04 GMT -6
I will still say the same thing after you are done.
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Post by venge on May 27, 2018 16:20:06 GMT -6
I will still say the same thing after you are done. I know you will. I don't agree with your interpretation. Since I am writing my own, feel free to start your own thread on the subject. But I will not be answering what you wrote previously. |
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Post by Natalie on May 27, 2018 17:51:15 GMT -6
I will still say the same thing after you are done. I know you will. I don't agree with your interpretation. Since I am writing my own, feel free to start your own thread on the subject. But I will not be answering what you wrote previously. Can I just ask what your purpose to this thread is if you are not allowing others to discuss your ideas? |
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Post by venge on May 27, 2018 18:14:45 GMT -6
I know you will. I don't agree with your interpretation. Since I am writing my own, feel free to start your own thread on the subject. But I will not be answering what you wrote previously. Can I just ask what your purpose to this thread is if you are not allowing others to discuss your ideas? Hi Natalie, The purpose was in the title. I am working my way to the heads once I finish the into to the 4rth kingdom. I can and will discuss with others. I wont entertain those who want to argue. When I see a statement, not a question, posed as: I did not talk about Death or Hades. I did not talk about Abaddon or Apollyon. I did not get into the head wound. All those things were not mentioned by me except the man of sin and son of perdition. I cannot nor will I try to answer things that I did not say. I did not get into Deuteronomy, nor did I mention it nor do I believe that it is linked in that way. Now, If I had said something you had a question of, I will try to answer it....but none of us are under any obligation. The statement did not ask a specific question in the context I wrote. But I hope the Blur isn't trying to be argumentative when he says I would, however, like to continue with the Antichrist...unless you object? |
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Post by Natalie on May 27, 2018 18:40:32 GMT -6
No, I don't object, please continue. I just wanted to have the purpose made clear. Thank you for being willing to answer questions when you are done. I do not see blur as argumentative. It's simply that you have much different ideas than most here hold to so we naturally want explanations.
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Post by venge on May 27, 2018 18:54:31 GMT -6
Edit: 5/27/2018 @ 09:00 PMI'd like to ask a question before getting into the Antichrist a little more. I would like to talk about how he is defined today, including Koine Greek. But first, I would like to ask a question. When we read the opening verses of Rev 13, which reads: - The Beast comes out of the sea.
- The same Beast has parts of a Leopard, a lion and a bear.
- The same Beast has 7 heads.
- When one of the heads is wounded and comes back, people don't worship the head. They follow the beast.
If the Beast is the Antichrist, why would he be part lion, part bear and part leopard? If the Beast is the Antichrist, why would the head wound not be given to the Antichrist; but to one of its 7 heads? If the Beast is the Antichrist, why would the world follow the Beast and not the revived head wound? Isn't a miracle worth following? I'd like to hear peoples explanations. For me, I read Daniel 7:7: The former Beast's were the Lion, and Bear and leopard. Daniel even states that was Babylon. Media Persia and Greece. All Kingdoms. In Daniel 7:23-25 we see the description: I read this exactly how I wrote it. The 4th beast of the sea which Daniel says it comes out of is the 4th kingdom. The 4th kingdom has 10 horns. Each horn is a King. Another king (11th horn) arises after them. The 11th horn is the Antichrist. If the 11th horn arises after the 10 horns, the Antichrist is not any of the 10 first horns and the Antichrist is not the beast which Daniel shows is a kingdom. The Antichrist (11th horn), not the beast (4th kingdom), is the one who speaks against the most high and oppresses his holy people. Why is the 4th kingdom different then the others? Each kingdom was one beast but we know this kingdom is all 3 of the previous kingdoms rolled into one. Because it is identified as being part of each. The only thing not mentioned right here are the 7 heads. Which is why I wanted to start this study. Please explain to me, why the Beast of the sea from Rev 13, which is the same Beast from Daniel 7, is a man with the question posed above. Before you answer, We know each kingdom has a king. There are always 2 beasts as Daniel says, The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth.
But this Beast arose from the sea, not the earth. Therefore, what does this beast of the sea with its 7 heads and 10 horns represent? Daniel even said the beast that come from the earth are kings. This beast from the opening of Rev 13 did not come from the earth.
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Post by mike on May 28, 2018 13:53:53 GMT -6
lots of problems here. there are 2 individuals: Death & hades; Abaddon & Apollyon; man of sin & son of perdition; antichrist (aka mortally head wounded individual) & false prophet. Why?
Revelation is patterned after the Deuteronomy blessings & curses for faithfulness/ unfaithfulness. Read Deut 28-32 esp.
Deut 28
25 “The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them. And you shall be a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 And your dead body shall be food for all birds of the air and for the beasts of the earth, and there shall be no one to frighten them away.
[...] 36 “The Lord will bring you and your king whom you set over you to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone. 37 And you shall become a horror, a proverb, and a byword among all the peoples where the Lord will lead you away.
The original pattern here is apostate 10 tribes Israel leaves Benjamin & Judah and sets up their own king (read 10 horns then 11th horn). Then they are taken over by the Assyrian as punishment by God (read False Prophet who makes them serve other gods of wood & stone).
Venge would it have better if blur said something like "If I am following correctly I see that the man of sin and son of perdition are one in the same. Similar to the beast and false prophet, or apollyon & Abaddon in the analysis. Are you saying they are one? I see this pattern in Deut do you think it contradicts?" |
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Post by venge on May 28, 2018 14:42:07 GMT -6
lots of problems here. there are 2 individuals: Death & hades; Abaddon & Apollyon; man of sin & son of perdition; antichrist (aka mortally head wounded individual) & false prophet. Why?
Revelation is patterned after the Deuteronomy blessings & curses for faithfulness/ unfaithfulness. Read Deut 28-32 esp.
Deut 28
25 “The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them. And you shall be a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 And your dead body shall be food for all birds of the air and for the beasts of the earth, and there shall be no one to frighten them away.
[...] 36 “The Lord will bring you and your king whom you set over you to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone. 37 And you shall become a horror, a proverb, and a byword among all the peoples where the Lord will lead you away.
The original pattern here is apostate 10 tribes Israel leaves Benjamin & Judah and sets up their own king (read 10 horns then 11th horn). Then they are taken over by the Assyrian as punishment by God (read False Prophet who makes them serve other gods of wood & stone).
Venge would it have better if blur said something like "If I am following correctly I see that the man of sin and son of perdition are one in the same. Similar to the beast and false prophet, or apollyon & Abaddon in the analysis. Are you saying they are one? I see this pattern in Deut do you think it contradicts?" Mike, I would like to move away from the question so not to derail the thread. But feel free to answer his. Its an open forum! I just want to stay on topic =P |
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blur
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Post by blur on May 28, 2018 16:15:33 GMT -6
Edit: 5/27/2018 @ 09:00 PMI'd like to ask a question before getting into the Antichrist a little more. I would like to talk about how he is defined today, including Koine Greek. But first, I would like to ask a question. When we read the opening verses of Rev 13, which reads: - The Beast comes out of the sea.
- The same Beast has parts of a Leopard, a lion and a bear.
- The same Beast has 7 heads.
- When one of the heads is wounded and comes back, people don't worship the head. They follow the beast.
If the Beast is the Antichrist, why would he be part lion, part bear and part leopard? If the Beast is the Antichrist, why would the head wound not be given to the Antichrist; but to one of its 7 heads? If the Beast is the Antichrist, why would the world follow the Beast and not the revived head wound? Isn't a miracle worth following? I'd like to hear peoples explanations. For me, I read Daniel 7:7: The former Beast's were the Lion, and Bear and leopard. Daniel even states that was Babylon. Media Persia and Greece. All Kingdoms. In Daniel 7:23-25 we see the description: I read this exactly how I wrote it. The 4th beast of the sea which Daniel says it comes out of is the 4th kingdom. The 4th kingdom has 10 horns. Each horn is a King. Another king (11th horn) arises after them. The 11th horn is the Antichrist. If the 11th horn arises after the 10 horns, the Antichrist is not any of the 10 first horns and the Antichrist is not the beast which Daniel shows is a kingdom. The Antichrist (11th horn), not the beast (4th kingdom), is the one who speaks against the most high and oppresses his holy people. Why is the 4th kingdom different then the others? Each kingdom was one beast but we know this kingdom is all 3 of the previous kingdoms rolled into one. Because it is identified as being part of each. The only thing not mentioned right here are the 7 heads. Which is why I wanted to start this study. Please explain to me, why the Beast of the sea from Rev 13, which is the same Beast from Daniel 7, is a man with the question posed above. Before you answer, We know each kingdom has a king. There are always 2 beasts as Daniel says, The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth.
But this Beast arose from the sea, not the earth. Therefore, what does this beast of the sea with its 7 heads and 10 horns represent? Daniel even said the beast that come from the earth are kings. This beast from the opening of Rev 13 did not come from the earth.
My apologies for not being more polite.
Here is my view: the Daniel 7 4th kingdom is not the beast from the sea, it is but 1/4th part of the beast from the sea - a 1/4th dominion just like in the 4th Seal, Death & Hades given 1/4 dominion.
The 'dragon' of Rev 12 & 13 is the 4th kingdom, merely 1 head (with 10 horns) of 7 heads, merely 1/4th of the world dominion. The beast from the sea is a contemporaneous conglomeration of 4 countries or blocs, of which the 'dragon' is 1 out of these 4 parts. That is why there are 7 heads: 1 head for the lion, 1 head for the bear, 4 heads for the leopard, 1 head for the dragon with 10 horns = 1 + 1 + 4 + 1 (w/ 10 horns) = 7 heads, 10 horns comprised of 4 parts: lion, bear, leopard, dragon.
For illustration: 1 UK head (lion) + 1 Russia head (bear) + 4 EU heads (leopard) + 1 (seems to be the US, but I'm open to better) US head with 10 FEMA governors (dragon w/ 10 horns).
At the day of the Lord, which cuts off the wine & grain offering (communion wine & wafer) (Joel 1:9) the US (dragon) goes into martial law & the 10 horns are given power (become 'kings'/ receive crowns/ diadems in verse 1 above), then they choose a US martial law dictator (11th horn). (this is when Mystery Babylon is burned with fire, and God says to 'come out of her, my people.' = the kingdom of heaven (on earth) starts at the day of the Lord with 10 virgins who have come out of her. (Matt 25) = Trumpets 1-4, Satan kicked out of the kingdom of heaven, the 1/3 portion referring to the 3 portions: heaven, sea, earth.
The dragon (for example, the US) gives its throne & army (power) & great authority ('leader of the free world') (my guess is that Denver with its mountain fortresses becomes the new capital [throne] of the beast from the sea coalition). Put another way, the dragon, the 4th beast kingdom / US cedes its own sovereignty to the new larger political entity/ aka the beast kingdom from the sea (this would be July 4, 2021, when they break the Declaration of Independence covenant in the middle of 70 '7's, 245 years after July 4, 1776)
the 4th beast kingdom, the dragon, is given a mouth, the 11th horn who cedes this sovereignty over to the sea beast coalition kingdom.
the beast from the sea kingdom is given a mouth, the false prophet. The 11th horn is the mouth of the dragon kingdom (aka 1/4 of the sea kingdom). The false prophet is the mouth of the beast from the sea kingdom.
the mortally head wounded individual (what people call the 'antichrist') is either: the head of the lion, bear, one of the 4 heads of the leopard, or the dragon's head.
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Post by venge on May 28, 2018 18:22:00 GMT -6
Blur,
To start, the dragon cannot be the 4th kingdom because Revelation shows the dragon stood on the shore and watches a beast rise out of the sea having 10 horns etc....
The dragon is seperate from the beast of the sea which Daniel says is a kingdom. He then testifies that a beast also comes from the earth and that beast rules the beast from the sea.
In Rev 12:9, the dragon is identified as thrown down to earth from heaven and the dragon is called Satan. Not a kingdom.
The head wound is not on a man. One of the 7 heads of the beast is wounded, not the horns. Horns are men. The 11th horn Antichrist is not wounded.
Edit: I’m sorry, but I don’t believe the US is the dragon when the dragon is Satan. The US isn’t in the Middle East. The Bible is a middle eastern work. It’s history, it’s birth, it’s future.
2nd edit: you also said 1 head is lion, 1 head bear, 4 heads Leopard and 1 Satan to equal 7. But John was told one “is”. That wasn’t lion, bear, leopard during his time. And it wasn’t Satan.....so what “is” then Johns 6th head?
Edit: In defense, if you believe one of the 7 heads of the beast is only a man, can you show me scripture that shows that a head denotes a singular ruler?
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blur
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Post by blur on May 30, 2018 11:08:51 GMT -6
Blur, To start, the dragon cannot be the 4th kingdom because Revelation shows the dragon stood on the shore and watches a beast rise out of the sea having 10 horns etc.... The dragon is seperate from the beast of the sea which Daniel says is a kingdom. He then testifies that a beast also comes from the earth and that beast rules the beast from the sea. In Rev 12:9, the dragon is identified as thrown down to earth from heaven and the dragon is called Satan. Not a kingdom. The head wound is not on a man. One of the 7 heads of the beast is wounded, not the horns. Horns are men. The 11th horn Antichrist is not wounded. Edit: I’m sorry, but I don’t believe the US is the dragon when the dragon is Satan. The US isn’t in the Middle East. The Bible is a middle eastern work. It’s history, it’s birth, it’s future. 2nd edit: you also said 1 head is lion, 1 head bear, 4 heads Leopard and 1 Satan to equal 7. But John was told one “is”. That wasn’t lion, bear, leopard during his time. And it wasn’t Satan.....so what “is” then Johns 6th head? Edit: In defense, if you believe one of the 7 heads of the beast is a man, can you show me scripture that shows that a head denotes a singular ruler?
Dan 7
3 And four great beasts came up out of the sea, different from one another. 4 The first was like a lion and had eagles' wings. Then as I looked its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man, and the mind of a man was given to it. 5 And behold, another beast, a second one, like a bear. It was raised up on one side. It had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth; and it was told, ‘Arise, devour much flesh.’ 6 After this I looked, and behold, another, like a leopard, with four wings of a bird on its back. And the beast had four heads, and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.
The lion kingdom, bear kingdom, leopard kingdom w 4 heads, & the 'terrifying, dreadful, strong beast with iron teeth'. The last one is the 'dragon'.
Rev 13
And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.
The 'dragon' gave his power & throne to it. The exact same 4 beasts: lion, bear, leopard, & 'dragon'/ terrifying beast. The dragon is finishing out the 7th head. The 10 horns are not arriving separately, the whole point is to say that the horns are being given crowns, meaning the 10 horns are now kings reigning with the beast. The 11th horn being the 'mouth' that is given to 'the beast' = the dragon gets a mouth (since the 'dragon' is a 'beast' / aka separate kingdom) & the beast from the sea gets a 'mouth' = the False Prophet.
Yes, the dragon is separate from the beast from the sea. Both entities are kingdoms, otherwise what 'throne' could the dragon be offering? The 'king' of the dragon is the 11th horn. The 'king' of the beast from the sea is the false prophet, who has his own kingdom (which is why he has 2 horns, he rules 2 kingdoms.)
The beast from the earth co-rules with the beast from the sea.
11 Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first beast [in its presence] / [on its behalf], and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people,
14 and by the signs that it is allowed to work [in its presence] / [on its behalf] of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image [for] / [to] / [of] the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.
The image is the object that is worshipped - and its not of the beast from the earth - it is in relation to the beast from the sea. What is the beast from the earth telling people to worship? Is the false prophet telling people to worship an image of a country that talks? (even Capt America is still a person 1st & foremost) Is a flag going to talk? The false prophet wants people to worship the 1st beast, ie the beast from the sea. The talking image is in relation to the beast from the sea. So if the false prophet was the only person here, then he doesn't want people to worship himself? this can't be true. Traditionally, the abomination was a statue of a man. In the future fulfillment, that man would be associated with the beast from the sea, not the beast from the earth.
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.
7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”
Satan is the 'ancient serpent', the dragon is his Satanic kingdom. We know from Rev 13:2 that the dragon has a 'throne' - meaning it has a king & is a kingdom. The kingdom of heaven is on earth: 'the kingdom of our God has come' verse 10. The kingdom of heaven is created when the 10 virgins obey the 'come out of her, my people' commandment, when they leave Satan's kingdom.
I said that the 11th horn was different from the mortally head wounded person. ('Antichrist' is not really a useful term for eschatology.)
I don't know how to respond to the 1st part. The Bible is for the whole world. That is like saying that the only real Christians that can exist only exist in the middle east.
As to the 2nd part: there are 7 heads at the same time, and there are 7 (8) through time.
9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. 11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. 12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast.
It explicitly says that the 7 heads are also 7 kings. 7 at the same time, 7 through time. The one 'that is' (the 6th head through time) is the same one then as we have now (until the 7th head through time arrives). The 6th head is Mystery Babylon, who is burned with fire, which allows the 7th head & the 10 horns/ 10 kings to seize control with the 11th horn. It's no different than saying the 6th head rules until the 7th head rules. (the 6th head seems to be Rome/ Vatican)
Aside from the Rev 17:9-10 verses above,
Isa 9
13 The people did not turn to him who struck them,
nor inquire of the Lord of hosts.
14 So the Lord cut off from Israel head and tail,
palm branch and reed in one day—
15 the elder and honored man is the head,
and the prophet who teaches lies is the tail;
16 for those who guide this people have been leading them astray,
and those who are guided by them are swallowed up.
The 'mortally head wounded individual' is the 'worthless/ foolish shepherd' of Zech 11. That is the same person that has a mortal head wound in Rev 13.
15 Then the Lord said to me, “Take once more the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For behold, I am raising up in the land a shepherd who does not care for those being destroyed, or seek the young or heal the maimed or nourish the healthy, but devours the flesh of the fat ones, tearing off even their hoofs.
17
“Woe to my worthless shepherd,
who deserts the flock!
May the sword strike his arm
and his right eye!
Let his arm be wholly withered,
his right eye utterly blinded!”
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Post by venge on May 30, 2018 16:36:55 GMT -6
Blur, To start, the dragon cannot be the 4th kingdom because Revelation shows the dragon stood on the shore and watches a beast rise out of the sea having 10 horns etc.... The dragon is seperate from the beast of the sea which Daniel says is a kingdom. He then testifies that a beast also comes from the earth and that beast rules the beast from the sea. In Rev 12:9, the dragon is identified as thrown down to earth from heaven and the dragon is called Satan. Not a kingdom. The head wound is not on a man. One of the 7 heads of the beast is wounded, not the horns. Horns are men. The 11th horn Antichrist is not wounded. Edit: I’m sorry, but I don’t believe the US is the dragon when the dragon is Satan. The US isn’t in the Middle East. The Bible is a middle eastern work. It’s history, it’s birth, it’s future. 2nd edit: you also said 1 head is lion, 1 head bear, 4 heads Leopard and 1 Satan to equal 7. But John was told one “is”. That wasn’t lion, bear, leopard during his time. And it wasn’t Satan.....so what “is” then Johns 6th head? Edit: In defense, if you believe one of the 7 heads of the beast is a man, can you show me scripture that shows that a head denotes a singular ruler?
Dan 7
3 And four great beasts came up out of the sea, different from one another. 4 The first was like a lion and had eagles' wings. Then as I looked its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man, and the mind of a man was given to it. 5 And behold, another beast, a second one, like a bear. It was raised up on one side. It had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth; and it was told, ‘Arise, devour much flesh.’ 6 After this I looked, and behold, another, like a leopard, with four wings of a bird on its back. And the beast had four heads, and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.
The lion kingdom, bear kingdom, leopard kingdom w 4 heads, & the 'terrifying, dreadful, strong beast with iron teeth'. The last one is the 'dragon'.
Rev 13
And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.
The 'dragon' gave his power & throne to it. The exact same 4 beasts: lion, bear, leopard, & 'dragon'/ terrifying beast. The dragon is finishing out the 7th head. The 10 horns are not arriving separately, the whole point is to say that the horns are being given crowns, meaning the 10 horns are now kings reigning with the beast. The 11th horn being the 'mouth' that is given to 'the beast' = the dragon gets a mouth (since the 'dragon' is a 'beast' / aka separate kingdom) & the beast from the sea gets a 'mouth' = the False Prophet.
Yes, the dragon is separate from the beast from the sea. Both entities are kingdoms, otherwise what 'throne' could the dragon be offering? The 'king' of the dragon is the 11th horn. The 'king' of the beast from the sea is the false prophet, who has his own kingdom (which is why he has 2 horns, he rules 2 kingdoms.)
The beast from the earth co-rules with the beast from the sea.
11 Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first beast [in its presence] / [on its behalf], and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people,
14 and by the signs that it is allowed to work [in its presence] / [on its behalf] of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image [for] / [to] / [of] the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.
The image is the object that is worshipped - and its not of the beast from the earth - it is in relation to the beast from the sea. What is the beast from the earth telling people to worship? Is the false prophet telling people to worship an image of a country that talks? (even Capt America is still a person 1st & foremost) Is a flag going to talk? The false prophet wants people to worship the 1st beast, ie the beast from the sea. The talking image is in relation to the beast from the sea. So if the false prophet was the only person here, then he doesn't want people to worship himself? this can't be true. Traditionally, the abomination was a statue of a man. In the future fulfillment, that man would be associated with the beast from the sea, not the beast from the earth.
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.
7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”
Satan is the 'ancient serpent', the dragon is his Satanic kingdom. We know from Rev 13:2 that the dragon has a 'throne' - meaning it has a king & is a kingdom. The kingdom of heaven is on earth: 'the kingdom of our God has come' verse 10. The kingdom of heaven is created when the 10 virgins obey the 'come out of her, my people' commandment, when they leave Satan's kingdom.
I said that the 11th horn was different from the mortally head wounded person. ('Antichrist' is not really a useful term for eschatology.)
I don't know how to respond to the 1st part. The Bible is for the whole world. That is like saying that the only real Christians that can exist only exist in the middle east.
As to the 2nd part: there are 7 heads at the same time, and there are 7 (8) through time.
9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. 11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. 12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast.
It explicitly says that the 7 heads are also 7 kings. 7 at the same time, 7 through time. The one 'that is' (the 6th head through time) is the same one then as we have now (until the 7th head through time arrives). The 6th head is Mystery Babylon, who is burned with fire, which allows the 7th head & the 10 horns/ 10 kings to seize control with the 11th horn. It's no different than saying the 6th head rules until the 7th head rules. (the 6th head seems to be Rome/ Vatican)
Aside from the Rev 17:9-10 verses above,
Isa 9
13 The people did not turn to him who struck them,
nor inquire of the Lord of hosts.
14 So the Lord cut off from Israel head and tail,
palm branch and reed in one day—
15 the elder and honored man is the head,
and the prophet who teaches lies is the tail;
16 for those who guide this people have been leading them astray,
and those who are guided by them are swallowed up.
The 'mortally head wounded individual' is the 'worthless/ foolish shepherd' of Zech 11. That is the same person that has a mortal head wound in Rev 13.
15 Then the Lord said to me, “Take once more the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For behold, I am raising up in the land a shepherd who does not care for those being destroyed, or seek the young or heal the maimed or nourish the healthy, but devours the flesh of the fat ones, tearing off even their hoofs.
17
“Woe to my worthless shepherd,
who deserts the flock!
May the sword strike his arm
and his right eye!
Let his arm be wholly withered,
his right eye utterly blinded!”
The Dragon is not the beast because Rev 13 says First: Dragon on the shores of the sea. Second: a Beast comes out of the sea to which the Dragon did not come out of. Third: The beast of the sea had 10 horns and 7 heads. Fourth: The Dragon is not defined here with any horns or any heads. Fifth: The beast is identified as leopard, bear and lion. Sixth: The Dragon standing on the shore gives the Beast coming out of the sea its power. Rev 12:9..the same Dragon on the shore You then said, The Dragon is a kingdom? The Dragon falls from Heaven and is called Satan. How does a Kingdom fall from Heaven unless it was established in heaven and then you are suggesting Satan reigned in Heaven. That is blasphemy if you are suggesting that. The Dragon's throne was the world. The Dragon, Satan was called The prince of the Air in Ephesians 2:2 He was called the god of this world in 2 Corinthians 4:4 Not to stray from the thread but when Jesus arrives in Heaven and takes the book from God, he is receiving the deed to the earth. Satan was doing as he pleases. Now, as the heir of God has claimed the earth by his right as being worthy, Satan has a short time left. God still allows Satan power to do things. of course, Satan is limited to what God allows, but for God's purpose he gives him leeway (Just like in Job). The Dragon has no King as he is Satan per Rev 13. The 11th horn is said by Daniel to come from the beast of the sea, not the Dragon. Daniel 7:7-8 The 4th Beast from the Sea that the Dragon on the shore had 10 horns. The 11th horn Antichrist comes and uproots 3 of them. Then you said: The Bible is for the whole world as Christ gave it to the Jew and the Gentile but the foundation of the Bible was Middle Eastern. It is a middle eastern work. When you read about Nebuchadnezzar, and they say he rules the whole world...it wasn't planet earth. It was the known world at that time. The same for future kingdoms. Every time in their minds it was the middle east. That is not to say Canada, America, Europe isn't involved in the future. That is to say you need to think of prophecy from the middle east too. This is why they called the AC the Assyrian. This is why Sudan, Egypt, and Libya are 3 of the horns. The bible states it. This is why the king of the north from Antiochus Epiphanes was a shadow of the future northern king that will be north of Israel. Not America, not Canada, Not Italy. No the UK. The bible describes the countries involved. Jordan (Moab and Ammon), Lebanon, Gaza strip, Syria, Iraq, Egypt ...etc.....all the same countries they have warred at for centuries. Which one is Esau? =P Then you said: The text does not say there are 7 heads through time and 7 at the same time. There are only 7 heads. Each head is a metaphor for a mountain. As God's kingdom is a mountain. Daniel 2:34-35 God's kingdom is also a mountain. There are many scriptural verses that show a mountain is a major kingdom. Christ is the chief cornerstone of that kingdom. Ephesians 2:19-22 The word for head in the koine greek is kephalé. It is defined as the head, (b) met: a corner stone, uniting two walls; head, ruler, lord. As Christ is the chief cornerstone of his kingdom, each Head of the beast is a cornerstone of those kingdoms thru the ages. Each head representing a major kingdom contrary to God's laws and inflicting harm on his people while also controlling Jerusalem. I don't think the verse in Isa 9 really matches what Rev 17 was saying. We are not cutting off any tails and the heads to elders were not what the text says when it relates them to mountains; not elders. When Rev 17 said, Do kings fall? They die, but Kingdoms fall. Psalm 46:6 Not the best verse but I don't wanna post a ton here. But there are verses detailing kingdoms fall, men sleep. If we are to take it as men too, then we have kingdoms and the men that rule those kingdoms. No different then what I previously wrote about 4Daniel saying 4 beast from the sea and 4 beast from the earth. If each head was a mountain kingdom, each head would technically be ruled by a beast from the earth symbolizing its king. 7 kingdoms, 7 rulers. All dead. The head raising itself then is not what is really important. It only shows that because it is still alive, the beast is able to live. The real issue is the beast itself and the "new" king (the Antichrist) that will rule is as the 4th king from the earth that rules the beast of the sea. I agree with you it is very possible that the verse in Zechariah could be the Antichrist but I think your interpretation is not right. You are suggesting it is a head wound because of the eye? Lets look at the verse my friend. We have a shepherd or a Pastor of some sort. This Pastor has a congregation. He is leading them contrary to God's commands. God says, may the sword strike his arm and his right eye. What is the significance of his arm or his right eye? Right has always been a symbol of good and left as evil. Even a right eye which was used in battle to see their foes because shield covered the left eye. When captured, they used to pluck out the right eye of their enemies to make them vulnerable. Even the right eye and arm were used by God to denote follow his path. If you strayed and your eye went dark, you were cast out into utter darkness. Matthew 5:29 When God refers to the sword taking his arm or his right eye, God is saying that because this Pastor caused all the people under him to fall into the pit, that Pastor would never realize the truth of scripture. He would be blind to it. I will post now from biblehub what the pulpit commentary says on it: When we look back at the head wound, in Rev 13 we saw This is the Beast that comes out of the sea via verses 1-2. This isn't the Beast of the Earth because he does not show up till verse 5 and 11. The Beast (per Daniel 7:23 The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth) has 7 heads (per Rev 13 And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads) and one of the 7 heads was wounded. Not the horns.How do I know? Because Rev 13 said It had ten horns and seven heads
One of the horns was the Antichrist. Not the head. Not the beast of the sea. Because the verse says,
The 10 horns are men from the 4th kingdom. The 11th horn, Antichrist, will come in and take it. The 11th horn never gets a head wound. One of the 7 heads get a head wound. Why? Because the Beast "was" and "is not" during Johns time. That's a red flag! If it "was" prior to Johns time...but "was not" in Johns time, the Beast that will rise was not Rome as it was the 6th that "is" during his time. Babylon, Media-Persia and Greece were all before his time. They were the "was". But in the future to John, they will rise again together in 1 kingdom. This is the 4th kingdom. The 8th head of the beast is an 8th because it comes back which means it existed. Well, we had 7 heads all with crowns and now when the 8th head comes, all the crowns are gone because those mountain kingdoms lost their reign. They only wear names of blasphemy. This is why when the beast ascends out of the bottomless pit (another metaphor), it is able to come back. Mankind allows it and Satan will spearhead it. Tell me, when the 7 mountain kingdoms lost their crowns, but they were allowed to remain as Nations, which ones would hold the name of blasphemy to God today per a head? |
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Post by witness1 on May 31, 2018 21:37:01 GMT -6
I just took a glance at this thread and confess I have not been following along at all. But I came across something this morning that may be pertinent to your conversation. It seems that some manuscripts read, “I stood on the sand of the sea” in Rev 12:17 instead of “He”. The difference between “I” and “he” in Greek is one letter at the end of the word- it appears in some manuscripts but not in others. The question is whether the letter was incorrectly added in some translations or accidentally dropped in others. Here is an excerpt from the commentary with the link to the full text below: Some manuscripts read, “he stood,” the change being effected by the dropping of one letter nu from the end of the verb estathē. If the letter is properly dropped, it indicates that the dragon himself stood upon the sand of the sea. If the letter is added, it means that John stood upon the sand of the sea. . . inasmuch as it is more likely that a letter be dropped than a letter added to the text, some scholars continue to feel that the Authorized Version is correct that John stood upon the sand of the sea. Hengstenberg remarks, “One cannot decide on external grounds between the two [textual] readings.” Authorities are divided. But a careful study of the context shews [sic ] conclusively that it is the Seer, and not the dragon that “stood upon the sand of the sea.” The apocalyptic prophet always takes his place or stand as a point of observation in keeping with the subject at hand. Thus heaven (Rev. Rev. 4:1+); the sand of the sea (Rev. Rev. 13:1+); the wilderness (Rev. Rev. 17:1+); and a high mountain (Rev. Rev. 21:10+), are respective points of view from which he can contemplate the various panoramic visions as they pass before his gaze. More here: www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/revelation-13/revelation-13-1.html |
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Post by venge on Jun 1, 2018 3:44:09 GMT -6
I just took a glance at this thread and confess I have not been following along at all. But I came across something this morning that may be pertinent to your conversation. It seems that some manuscripts read, “I stood on the sand of the sea” in Rev 12:17 instead of “He”. The difference between “I” and “he” in Greek is one letter at the end of the word- it appears in some manuscripts but not in others. The question is whether the letter was incorrectly added in some translations or accidentally dropped in others. Here is an excerpt from the commentary with the link to the full text below: Some manuscripts read, “he stood,” the change being effected by the dropping of one letter nu from the end of the verb estathē. If the letter is properly dropped, it indicates that the dragon himself stood upon the sand of the sea. If the letter is added, it means that John stood upon the sand of the sea. . . inasmuch as it is more likely that a letter be dropped than a letter added to the text, some scholars continue to feel that the Authorized Version is correct that John stood upon the sand of the sea. Hengstenberg remarks, “One cannot decide on external grounds between the two [textual] readings.” Authorities are divided. But a careful study of the context shews [sic ] conclusively that it is the Seer, and not the dragon that “stood upon the sand of the sea.” The apocalyptic prophet always takes his place or stand as a point of observation in keeping with the subject at hand. Thus heaven (Rev. Rev. 4:1+); the sand of the sea (Rev. Rev. 13:1+); the wilderness (Rev. Rev. 17:1+); and a high mountain (Rev. Rev. 21:10+), are respective points of view from which he can contemplate the various panoramic visions as they pass before his gaze. More here: www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/revelation-13/revelation-13-1.htmlVery true. We can only use what we have. If we were to remove the dragon from the shore, it does not negate the dragon giving his power to the beast of the sea nor does it negate the beast being seen rising out of the sea identifiable with 7 heads and 10 horns. We still have a Dragon that falls to earth and he is called Satan. |
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