Job19
Layman
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Posts: 62 
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Post by Job19 on Apr 19, 2018 8:53:37 GMT -6
I believe that the great sign of 23rd Sept 2017 did actually signal a rapture event. The key word here being "signal" which is a sign post pointing others, who are paying attention, to a future event which will have a tangible fulfilment. I also believe that the sign included the future catching away of the "Child" (Not Jesus here but a corporate entity-the church). "She bore a male child ("teknon") who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And the Child was caught up to God and His throne" (Rev 12:5).
Paul Dawson has a great video on the child being caught up to the throne room right after the child (Jupiter) leaves Virgo after the birth (see link below). We have had all of the signals for the rapture now we are waiting for the rapture itself.
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Post by venge on Apr 19, 2018 9:24:57 GMT -6
As you and I pointed out, the day of Christ cannot come till the man of sin is revealed. If you read all my OP, than you would notice the rapture happens when the day of Christ happens therefore the rapture happens after the man of sin is revealed exactly how it is told by Christ. Ha! I said the exact opposite. The Day of the Lord is about Judgement. We are gone before the AC is revealed. My last word on it. I am wasting my time here as we will never agree on it. That's fine. I'll find you in heaven after the event occurs.  Fitz, I enjoy reading your replies but “we don’t agree”. I find it humorous  but we have Christ, that’s the most important thing. And at that time we see him after the tribulation I will give ya a wink 😉. The day of Christ/Lord is not just destruction. It is also when every eye will see him. And they will mourn for him. And he sends his angels for his elect. A beautiful day of blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Savior! Just promise me one thing: IF you are here and it’s after the Tribulation, do not lose faith. That’s all I ask. |
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Post by venge on Apr 19, 2018 9:33:33 GMT -6
Venge, First thanks for posting your position on this as its (mid-trib rapture) not here on the boards to my knowledge. Reading through the first portion I question the day of Christ & day of the Lord. Reason I wanted to clarify that is the "pre-trib" notion would outline something like this: 1. Rapture - day of Christ 2. Man of Sin - although most of those left behind wouldnt recognize this he would begin to rule for 3.5 yrs. until the AoD 3. At the AoD or close to it the "Great Trib" begins - day of the Lord Again my only intent there is to point out why I was seeking clarification, not to veer off course. I do want to insert one minor objection to a few verses you are using to justify the position. To be clear, not to argue to understand. Daniel 9:27 is used to support the position however no one can be 100% certain who this verse refers to Christ or anti-christ. The he in verse 27 could point to Messiah in verse 26 or the prince destroying the city. It has been debated for centuries and no definite answer is available. Its fine to use this verse to support the angle, however whether pre, mid or post use of the verse should be used with this understanding. Personally I think the he is the anti-christ. Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.Venge said: A thought I've had is that since we arent 100% certain about the "Trib" being 7 years or 3.5 years (as noted in other thread) I believe its possible that what you outline here and the pre-Trib view could be one in the same, just differing vantage points. Humor me here for a moment The Great Sign of 9/23 had to mean something. for a pre-tribber viewing a 7 yr time frame, it signaled something but obviously not a rapture event. But what if it was the signal of "tribulation", not the Great Trib but the beginning of the birth pangs, say for 3.5 more years? Thats more of a rhetorical question, so as to not tangent your thread, we can start a new one to discuss for anyone who would like. or y'all can just ignore me Daniel 12 describes the “he” as scattering the power of the holy people. That would imply the AC. After, it is said together the daily is stopped and the AoD setup. It would imply by these 2 and Daniel 9:27 both refer the “he” as the AC. On an edit: I don’t consider myself mid Trib Mike. Post Trib more because Christ says “after the Tribulation”. But I don’t subscribe to the 7th Trumpet only because they are his wrath. The blessing he gives there to his elect/the rewards he speaks of could be thought of as eternal life but I am under the opinion the reward is the marriage supper of the lamb. I can write that up later. |
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Post by venge on Apr 19, 2018 14:48:29 GMT -6
IMHO...The 24 Elders are symbolic of the Church. WE are the Kings and Priests...or if you prefer, a kingdom of priests (see Revelation 1:6; 5:10), and WE will reign on earth. WE are a royal priesthood (see 1 Peter 2:9). WE are in heaven in chapters 4 & 5. A pre-trib rapture, before the 1st seal is opened.. Personally, still thinking it's 7 years. I think the event we are waiting on is for the woman to go into labor, i.e., War in Israel, then rapture and the Godzilla brothers show up. 42 months they preach, are killed, lay in the street 3.5 days, they are resurrected and raptured...A of D, 42 more months of hell on earth. Jesus comes, with us following. Hmm. So, Jesus comes twice. In the clouds and then comes back in the clouds 2.0 then touches down. 2nd and 3rd Advent. And you said we get raptured and later the 2 witnesses get raptured. So there are 2 rapture events? I know we get raptured and they get raptured but there is only 1 event. |
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Post by venge on Apr 19, 2018 14:53:35 GMT -6
If our Savior descends from heaven to Earth with a shout, with an archangel, with the last trump also called the trump of God how does that, not the rapture, but that event differ from the day of the Lord? As he descends, won’t every eye see him? If it happens before the first seal, why use the 2 witnesses as a last effort to get people to change before his wrath if it’s already his wrath? Why send them? Why not send them before the rapture so others may have 1 last chance before the door is shut? For the Bible says even then if you call upon the name of the Lord you will be saved. Why tell us Elijah will come before you (Christ) if we won’t see it? Why do our dead brethren cry to you during the tribulation, when we are raptured, asking for you to punish the earth if it’s being punished already? Edit: not hijacking, just saw this and another and looking for clarification. Please continue with the OPs subject 😐 Hi Venge. Your questions are fair questions. I can answer each of them; however, my answers are not inline with any church doctrine. So I will answer just one to give you the flavor of my analysis. Every eye will see Lord Jesus because he is sealed to the 144,000 (Rev. Chapter 7). That is, Lord Jesus is sealed to the 144,000 just as he was sealed to the Father. Thus, when you see Lord Jesus then you see the Father. Likewise, when you see one of the 144,000 then you see the Savior. Thus, Lord Jesus is all over the earth in 144,000 locations at once. Everyone will see these guys working and harvesting repentant souls as directed by Lord Jesus. This is some time after the rapture. Lord Jesus intends to leave no repentant soul behind. There is however a big difference between the sealing of Lord Jesus to the Father and Lord Jesus to the 144,000. In the first case the Father and Son are perfect in every way and in fact "one." Whereas in the second case the 144,000 are sinners that are called and forgiven of their sins. In other words, they have a buffer between them and the Father and that buffer is Christ. They themselves could never be sealed directly to the Father, but they can be sealed to their Savior. As a result they have the gift of life; to live and harvest souls unto Lord Jesus during a time when all other saints have been harvested in the rapture. Thus, when the rapture takes place these 144,000 will be called to their mission and return to the field of harvest. It is the two witnesses that lead them (Rev. 12:14) and when the two witnesses are killed then the 144,000 will not allow their bodies to be disturbed but lay in the streets for three days (Rev. 11:9). The greater question in all of this is when does it occur? That is, when does the rapture kick off and the 144,000 get called to their mission. Rev. 7:1-2 indicates that after some event in the east he leaves to seal the 144,000. That event in the east appears to be the attack upon Israel. Thus, I am somewhat convinced that our current events lead to an attack upon Israel and that is when the Rapture takes place and sparks the call of the 144,000. It is then that the 5 months takes place as mentioned in Rev. Chapter 9. Those 5 months are part of the 3.5 years of tribulation. Thus, the 144,000 are harvesting souls while the beast is ruling the earth. Then at the end of the 3.5 years the 144,000 destroy the beast (Rev. 9:14:15). In these verses the 4 angels metaphorically represent the second of the three woes and the 6th angel metaphorically represents the 144,000. Also, Rev. 19:11-21 depicts the same war as Rev. 9:13-21. I think the prophecy of Ezra's Eagle in the Apocrypha must be fulfilled first. Four feathers will be plucked out by the deep state. I think the first of the four was Ryan and now three remain. I agree with you bora on the rapture that it happens after Israel is attacked and the Bible says when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies....that’s when the AoD is set up and the rapture happens after it. That all happens according to Christ after the tribulation |
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Post by fitz on Apr 19, 2018 17:45:09 GMT -6
Rev 11: 11-12
11 But after three and a half days, God breathed life into them, and they stood up! Terror struck all who were staring at them. 12 Then a loud voice from heaven called to the two prophets, “Come up here!” And they rose to heaven in a cloud as their enemies watched.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 19, 2018 18:54:31 GMT -6
Yes, the two witnesses called home separately...in the manner of Enoch and Elijah. So, I suppose you could say there is not just one rapture, but 5 -- Enoch, then Elijah, then Christ, then the church, then the two witnesses.
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Post by sawdy on Apr 19, 2018 23:15:17 GMT -6
vengeIf you keep up with your current rate of posting, you will experience a pre-trib rapture. 🤣. Less than a month of posting and your already well on your way to the "rapture" status of 500 posts.
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Post by venge on Apr 20, 2018 3:40:41 GMT -6
Rev 11: 11-12 11 But after three and a half days, God breathed life into them, and they stood up! Terror struck all who were staring at them. 12 Then a loud voice from heaven called to the two prophets, “Come up here!” And they rose to heaven in a cloud as their enemies watched. Yes, I am familiar with the verse. It doesn’t rule out it can be the same event. As “a loud voice from heaven called”. Could that loud voice be the voice of an archangel, the last trump of God at the resurrection? It could very well be. ——I’m not trying to post a lot. But I read many threads and reply when questioned when I can. Edit: It is not stated the 2 witnesses are the only ones raised at that time they are called as the subject of them in that verse was meant to describe them, not all events surrounding them. It is possible it is just them, just as it is, others are raised too. |
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Post by fitz on Apr 20, 2018 5:51:20 GMT -6
venge , Don't read this as harsh, it's just a few questions I have and I am looking for honest answers. Of course you aren't obligated to answer any of them, but I hope you will. This seems appropriate for the thread as titled. First of all, few of us here would say we all agree on all points of scripture, be it prophecy or otherwise. However, most of us would say that we agree on most of the most important points of Christian doctrine. For instance, most here would say that we can agree that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, and not of works. I hope you'd count yourself in agreement with us on that one. Prophecy is a little different in that within the Church there are divergent opinions on how the "end times" will play out (...now we see dimly...). Premillennialism, Postmillennialism, Amillenialism, Pre-Mid-Post trib raptures, etc. And within these, there are many sub-groups as well. But these are very well established and documented points of view that have been held by various denominations in the Church for many years, most of which can be traced back hundreds of years, if not to the very beginning of the Church. Getting to my question...I can't help but notice that invariably, you seem to have a different understanding of almost any of the long held Christian beliefs regarding the prophetic scriptures that are espoused here by various participants. You seem to have a different take on just about anything posted here. Most troubling to me is that I don't recognize most of your stances. Now, I am most familiar with my own beliefs on prophecy and as you know I am Pre-trib and Pre-Mill, but to be sure, I am far less knowledgeable on the other views. And let me clearly state, no one has it all right. No denomination or group of Christian thought has all points of scripture perfect...and we are called to study...all of us, individually and not to blindly trust any denomination or "camp". However, I think most here would say that they align with a particular set of long held Christian doctrine on things prophetic and otherwise. Most here could write a "statement of faith" listing their core beliefs and those would roughly align with some group of Christians that hold to the same common beliefs. In most case that would be a denomination, but doesn't have to be. (I'm not pushing denominations. I think they serve a role, but unfortunately, have splintered the Church. However, it is the way things have panned out.) My questions: 1. Do you fall into one one the 3 main eschatalogical camps mentioned above or have you "rolled your own"? Or perhaps there is another I've excluded? 2. If you have "rolled your own", which camp do you think you most closely align with? 3. Do you have a denominational affiliation? If so, would you share it? You see, I hear you saying stuff that in my time following Jesus and studying His word (over 40 years) I have never heard before. In and of itself that's not necessarily a bad thing. It could just be that you espouse one of these aforementioned eschatalogical views (or another) and I am simply ignorant of it and it's finer points. I am certainly no theologian! But I have to tell you, I am always skeptical regarding "new revelation". Stuff I hear that doesn't align with any of these views causes an eyebrow to raise. Because men of God, brilliant theological minds, have been studying these things for 2000 years. If I hear an eschatalogical viewpoint I've never heard before I tend to ask myself..."wow, how did they miss that?" And I for one think it's highly unlikely that God is revealing "new stuff" at this point in human history as I think we are nearing the end of the Church Age. Again, maybe your understanding is not "new", maybe I am just ignorant of a particular doctrinal stance you espouse. Please enlighten me (and the rest of us here) on where you are coming from. I'm am just trying to establish a point of reference for your theology/eschatology. Perhaps you'll say "it's scripture". Perhaps you don't align with any documented Christian eschatology. That's an acceptable answer too, but at least I'll know.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 20, 2018 6:43:20 GMT -6
I would like to answer this. When I arrived here last summer I was hands down pre-trib. 7 year trib, God removes His Church to deal with Israel kind of gal.. But because of these wonderful debates here and checking out the sciprtures directly, putting aside what others are telling me it says, and Hearing God on the matter as best I can, I no longer "stand" firm" on what the major consensus says. I do not fall in any of the 3 main esch camps anymore, and I am ok with that. I am not rolling my own, but agree with many and disagree with many I have no denomination affiliation, and consider myself a follower of Christ In regards to the rapture, could it not be that when we put on immortality that we then are capable of "seeing" the man of lawlessness? Many many things will be revealed to us when we are with Jesus. And this makes me think that do we truly understand what the rapture looks like? Philip was capable of translating to another place after ministering to the eunich from Ethiopia.. Yes, we will be "caught up" but we also put on immortality. What does that truly look like? 2ndly: Why is it that some parts in Revelation are taken as "spiritual" while other events people insist that they are "literal" ? John was in the Spirit when Revelation was given to him. 3: I have never understood or have been shown with absolute certainty that the 1st Seal is the start of this tribulation. John was weeping because no one was found worthy to open the seals, then “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.” Where is it that syas the Jesus waits until now to open the 1st seal? Why can't Jesus begin the process of His Revealing once He gets to the throne from the start? The first 4 seals are like "headlines" in a newspaper, and do not contain judgement or destruction... 4: who says the white horse is the antichrist? why can it not be the Holy Spirit? The Helper given to overcome the role of the 2nd horse who takes peace away and so men wold slay one another..(violence and hate) I have some of the same question that venge has, particularly that there are some verses that just read like there is going to be tribulation that "we" will see or experience. Are we not seeing that now and even experience that? Not each one of us, but just look at the world? love this group with all my heart! Amen to mike 's prayer as we all seek the truths... |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 20, 2018 7:37:19 GMT -6
I have some of the same question that venge has, particularly that there are some verses that just read like there is going to be tribulation that "we" will see or experience. Are we not seeing that now and even experience that? Not each one of us, but just look at the world? love this group with all my heart! Amen to mike 's prayer as we all seek the truths... The verse venge put in the OP speaks of the trials we will have during this life: 1 Peter 1:6-7 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: The things we go through in this life are what are making us more like Christ. I'm currently listening to a sermon series on 1 Peter. It's like when gold is melted so that the dross can be skimmed off. It's purified until the goldsmith can see his reflection in the melted gold. We do not need to go through the Great Tribulation in order for that to happen. If that were so, then what happens to all of those who died before the Great Tribulation? It's known as the time of Jacob's Trouble for a reason...it's not for the church. Christ did all that was needed at the cross. We don't need to be purified to get in to heaven. We are purified so that our lives reflect Him here and now. And it's always been that way. |
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Post by fitz on Apr 20, 2018 9:39:51 GMT -6
3: I have never understood or have been shown with absolute certainty that the 1st Seal is the start of this tribulation. John was weeping because no one was found worthy to open the seals, then “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.” Where is it that syas the Jesus waits until now to open the 1st seal? Why can't Jesus begin the process of His Revealing once He gets to the throne from the start? The first 4 seals are like "headlines" in a newspaper, and do not contain judgement or destruction... Because the 24 Elders must be present for Revelation chapter 5 to be true. The Church IS the 24 Elders. Before a single seal can be opened, the Church has to be in heaven for this prophecy to be true. |
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Post by mike on Apr 20, 2018 10:19:24 GMT -6
Tagging on to this a bit ... I agree and appreciate everything you noted in your question to Venge, fitz. One of the many things I have learned here and after with BSG about is studying for ourselves. Point being I have the three major views on the end times. Those are sound and solid, but what if there is variation that was not understood before? Do we just dismiss guys like Venge because he sees things differently? Before you dismiss, you study and apply, if it's not dead wrong (like bring saved by faith in Mary, or through works, etc) I think on it. I still have the 3 views in my mind, but now I have a tangent to ponder and even watch for. I don't put my faith in any of these "major 3" nor BSG's view, Fitz's view, Venges view. But wouldn't it "wrong" if we insisted "God must do this end times thing this way because that's how I understand His word"? As you said Fitz, no one has it all perfect |
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Post by witness1 on Apr 20, 2018 11:58:00 GMT -6
As an addendum to his article outlining why the 24 elders HAVE to be the raptured church, I found this article (about WHY Jesus opens the seals when we get to heaven and not beforehand) very convincing. It was also very encouraging and convicting to my personal walk with the Lord. I really need to re-read it because it has been awhile and it was REALLY good. I feel like I would do the article a disservice to try to give a brief summary for you, but hopefully you will have time to read it for yourself. Then perhaps we can discuss. www.alittlestrength.com/articles/2017/1712-missing-piece.htm |
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but we have Christ, that’s the most important thing. And at that time we see him after the tribulation I will give ya a wink 😉.
