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Post by witness1 on Apr 16, 2018 7:09:08 GMT -6
I like it. I will work on that as soon as I can.
I agree that many conflate the Day of the Lord and the Day of Christ... do you want to tackle a thread on that one while I work on the other?
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Post by fitz on Apr 16, 2018 7:17:22 GMT -6
IMHO...The 24 Elders are symbolic of the Church. WE are the Kings and Priests...or if you prefer, a kingdom of priests (see Revelation 1:6; 5:10), and WE will reign on earth. WE are a royal priesthood (see 1 Peter 2:9). WE are in heaven in chapters 4 & 5. A pre-trib rapture, before the 1st seal is opened..
Personally, still thinking it's 7 years. I think the event we are waiting on is for the woman to go into labor, i.e., War in Israel, then rapture and the Godzilla brothers show up. 42 months they preach, are killed, lay in the street 3.5 days, they are resurrected and raptured...A of D, 42 more months of hell on earth. Jesus comes, with us following.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 16, 2018 7:29:36 GMT -6
I like it. I will work on that as soon as I can. I agree that many conflate the Day of the Lord and the Day of Christ... do you want to tackle a thread on that one while I work on the other? I once saw a chart somewhere that compared the rapture and the Second Coming. Would that be what you are looking for?
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Post by boraddict on Apr 16, 2018 8:12:18 GMT -6
Consider the 3 woes beginning at Rev. 9:1,
The first woe is in Rev. 9:1-12 and mentions a period of 5 months (Rev. 9:5, 10). The second woe is in Rev. 9:13-11:14 and mentions a period of 42 months (Rev. 11:2), and a period of 1260 days (Rev. 11:3). The third woe is in Rev. 11:15-19 and it does not reference a period of time.
Since we are dealing with either 3.5 years or 7 years of tribulation in our time, then we can conclude that the 5 months of the first woe is part of the 42 months or 1260 days of the second woe. As such, it implies that Rev. 11:2-3 are parenthetical periods of time and as such they are not exclusive to only the second woe but the first and third woe as well.
Thus, John was instructed to measure the temple (Rev. 11:2) and that it would be trodden under foot either before the first woe or at the beginning of the first woe.
If it was trodden under foot in 70 AD, and Rev. 11:2 pertains to that period of time, then the two prophets of Rev. 11:3 begin their work at the beginning of the first woe.
This supports that 3.5 years of the tribulation took place from 67-70 AD and we only have 3.5 years remaining.
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Post by witness1 on Apr 16, 2018 9:59:35 GMT -6
Natalie, a chart with the differences between the rapture and second coming would be great!
@borradict, where are you coming up with the notion that 3.5 years of the tribulation was 67-70? I have never seen a scripture indicating that the tribulation is 7 years split into two halves. I only see that the 70th week is split into 2 halves as given in Daniel 9:27. But either 1) the 70th week has not occurred at all, as majority opinion states, or 2) half was fulfilled with Jesus’ ministry as I am beginning to believe. I’m not sure why you think it makes sense to jump to 67AD and say that some tribulation happened here when there is no historical evidence of tribulation in these years, no reason to jump years in the Daniel prophecy, and no scriptural indication that half of the tribulation has been fulfilled. I’m feeling frustrated because people are getting confused unnecessarily about the idea that half of the 70th week could have been fulfilled because I feel like you are taking something I said and turning it into something very different. Do you have any scriptural support for believing the Daniel prophecy has to do with 70 literal weeks, 70 literal years, or a gap in time until some supposed tribulation before the temple was destroyed?
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Post by fitz on Apr 16, 2018 11:32:10 GMT -6
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Post by mike on Apr 16, 2018 11:37:30 GMT -6
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Post by boraddict on Apr 16, 2018 17:08:29 GMT -6
Natalie, a chart with the differences between the rapture and second coming would be great! @borradict, where are you coming up with the notion that 3.5 years of the tribulation was 67-70? I have never seen a scripture indicating that the tribulation is 7 years split into two halves. I only see that the 70th week is split into 2 halves as given in Daniel 9:27. But either 1) the 70th week has not occurred at all, as majority opinion states, or 2) half was fulfilled with Jesus’ ministry as I am beginning to believe. I’m not sure why you think it makes sense to jump to 67AD and say that some tribulation happened here when there is no historical evidence of tribulation in these years, no reason to jump years in the Daniel prophecy, and no scriptural indication that half of the tribulation has been fulfilled. I’m feeling frustrated because people are getting confused unnecessarily about the idea that half of the 70th week could have been fulfilled because I feel like you are taking something I said and turning it into something very different. Do you have any scriptural support for believing the Daniel prophecy has to do with 70 literal weeks, 70 literal years, or a gap in time until some supposed tribulation before the temple was destroyed? Hi witness, you are correct that I did get the idea from you and modified it just a little. However, the more I considered the possibility that the 7 years were split into two 3.5 years periods, and devoured to place those 3.5 years periods correctly into a timeline, the more I became convinced. The foundational premise is that the 69 sevens of Daniel's prophecy takes us to 27 AD. Secondly, the Savior did not start his ministry until he was 30 years old and that includes his time in the womb. Thus, the Savior was born in 3 BC. Thirdly, there is a 70 year count from 3 BC to 67 AD. This count mirrors the 70 year count in our time from 1948 to 2018. Last of all, 3.5 years is added to 67 AD to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, and 3.5 years is added to 2018 for the destruction of the world in 2021. This is a total of 7 years that is the 70th seven of Daniel's vision; although it is split into two 3.5 year periods. I realize that no clear prophecy exists to support this analysis. Additionally, there is no clear prophecy saying that this analysis is incorrect. I had to let go of the idea that the Savior's ministry was 3.5 years. Instead, I turned to the 70 week ministry and it is supported by "the acceptable year of the Lord." One problem with the 3.5 year ministry is that in order for it to work, the time line must start at 1 AD for the birth of the Savior. In turn the he would have had to be 27 years old when he started his ministry and this is inconsistent with the Jewish customs of the day that required rabbis be a minimum of 30 years old. Please correct me if I am wrong on that point. One simple observation pertaining to my analysis is that if we are still here in 2021 then it is clearly wrong.
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Post by witness1 on Apr 16, 2018 20:37:05 GMT -6
The Bible clearly mentions 3 Passover’s in Jesus’ ministry, and some believe that another feast mentioned was Passover as well. But at a minimum, Jesus’ ministry was 2 years long. It feels quite forced, to me, to try to make His ministry only 70 weeks when it is pretty clear it was much longer. You may be interested in this scripture showing Jesus was about 30 when He was baptized. This would certainly fit with a birth in 3 BC and baptism in 27/28 AD. Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased." Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, - Luke 3:21-23 Edit: a good article on the length of Jesus’ ministry: www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/length-Jesus-ministry.html
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Post by boraddict on Apr 16, 2018 21:18:27 GMT -6
The Bible clearly mentions 3 Passover’s in Jesus’ ministry, and some believe that another feast mentioned was Passover as well. But at a minimum, Jesus’ ministry was 2 years long. It feels quite forced, to me, to try to make His ministry only 70 weeks when it is pretty clear it was much longer. You may be interested in this scripture showing Jesus was about 30 when He was baptized. This would certainly fit with a birth in 3 BC and baptism in 27/28 AD. Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased." Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, - Luke 3:21-23 Edit: a good article on the length of Jesus’ ministry: www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/length-Jesus-ministry.htmlThat is so funny. I knew he was about thirty but I could not remember how I knew it. I am convinced that he was born at Tabernacles in 3 BC. The reason for this is that he was born in a manger because the inn was full. Yes the inn was perhaps full because it was Tabernacles. The old did not want to lay on the ground. www.cgsf.org/dbeattie/calendar/?roman=3bcHowever, the greater evidence for 3 BC is Daniel's vision marking 27 AD. Some day we will have the signs of the heavens for those years and the star as the marker for the Savior's birth. I know what you are saying about the Passovers. It is also an issue that I have and hope to resolve.
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Post by venge on Apr 17, 2018 14:55:43 GMT -6
If our Savior descends from heaven to Earth with a shout, with an archangel, with the last trump also called the trump of God how does that, not the rapture, but that event differ from the day of the Lord? As he descends, won’t every eye see him? If it happens before the first seal, why use the 2 witnesses as a last effort to get people to change before his wrath if it’s already his wrath? Why send them? Why not send them before the rapture so others may have 1 last chance before the door is shut? For the Bible says even then if you call upon the name of the Lord you will be saved. Why tell us Elijah will come before you (Christ) if we won’t see it? Why do our dead brethren cry to you during the tribulation, when we are raptured, asking for you to punish the earth if it’s being punished already? Edit: not hijacking, just saw this and another and looking for clarification. Please continue with the OPs subject 😐
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Post by boraddict on Apr 17, 2018 20:21:41 GMT -6
If our Savior descends from heaven to Earth with a shout, with an archangel, with the last trump also called the trump of God how does that, not the rapture, but that event differ from the day of the Lord? As he descends, won’t every eye see him? If it happens before the first seal, why use the 2 witnesses as a last effort to get people to change before his wrath if it’s already his wrath? Why send them? Why not send them before the rapture so others may have 1 last chance before the door is shut? For the Bible says even then if you call upon the name of the Lord you will be saved. Why tell us Elijah will come before you (Christ) if we won’t see it? Why do our dead brethren cry to you during the tribulation, when we are raptured, asking for you to punish the earth if it’s being punished already? Edit: not hijacking, just saw this and another and looking for clarification. Please continue with the OPs subject 😐 Hi Venge. Your questions are fair questions. I can answer each of them; however, my answers are not inline with any church doctrine. So I will answer just one to give you the flavor of my analysis. Every eye will see Lord Jesus because he is sealed to the 144,000 (Rev. Chapter 7). That is, Lord Jesus is sealed to the 144,000 just as he was sealed to the Father. Thus, when you see Lord Jesus then you see the Father. Likewise, when you see one of the 144,000 then you see the Savior. Thus, Lord Jesus is all over the earth in 144,000 locations at once. Everyone will see these guys working and harvesting repentant souls as directed by Lord Jesus. This is some time after the rapture. Lord Jesus intends to leave no repentant soul behind. There is however a big difference between the sealing of Lord Jesus to the Father and Lord Jesus to the 144,000. In the first case the Father and Son are perfect in every way and in fact "one." Whereas in the second case the 144,000 are sinners that are called and forgiven of their sins. In other words, they have a buffer between them and the Father and that buffer is Christ. They themselves could never be sealed directly to the Father, but they can be sealed to their Savior. As a result they have the gift of life; to live and harvest souls unto Lord Jesus during a time when all other saints have been harvested in the rapture. Thus, when the rapture takes place these 144,000 will be called to their mission and return to the field of harvest. It is the two witnesses that lead them (Rev. 12:14) and when the two witnesses are killed then the 144,000 will not allow their bodies to be disturbed but lay in the streets for three days (Rev. 11:9). The greater question in all of this is when does it occur? That is, when does the rapture kick off and the 144,000 get called to their mission. Rev. 7:1-2 indicates that after some event in the east he leaves to seal the 144,000. That event in the east appears to be the attack upon Israel. Thus, I am somewhat convinced that our current events lead to an attack upon Israel and that is when the Rapture takes place and sparks the call of the 144,000. It is then that the 5 months takes place as mentioned in Rev. Chapter 9. Those 5 months are part of the 3.5 years of tribulation. Thus, the 144,000 are harvesting souls while the beast is ruling the earth. Then at the end of the 3.5 years the 144,000 destroy the beast (Rev. 9:14:15). In these verses the 4 angels metaphorically represent the second of the three woes and the 6th angel metaphorically represents the 144,000. Also, Rev. 19:11-21 depicts the same war as Rev. 9:13-21. I think the prophecy of Ezra's Eagle in the Apocrypha must be fulfilled first. Four feathers will be plucked out by the deep state. I think the first of the four was Ryan and now three remain.
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Post by boraddict on Apr 18, 2018 20:42:50 GMT -6
witness1 can you provide the three references of the Passover that Lord Jesus attended. I think one of those references will be assumed because I have read that there were a total of seven feasts for Lord Jesus to attend.
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Post by witness1 on Apr 19, 2018 4:29:12 GMT -6
I don’t know them off the top of my head, but they were listed in that article I posted about the length of Jesus’ ministry.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 19, 2018 19:13:07 GMT -6
I moved some of the conversation to venge's pre-trib thread where it fit better. ( venge and fitz)
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