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Post by disciple4life on Apr 13, 2018 1:10:13 GMT -6
The is fabulous. Thank you! I think a 30 AD crucifixion makes sense simply for the fact that the temple was destroyed in 70 AD... a full 40 years later. If there's one thing everyone looking at numbers and charts has shown us, it's that God generally uses nice round numbers. A crucifixion in 33 AD means there was only 37 years until the temple was destroyed, which just doesn't make as much sense to me. Also, a 33 AD crucifixion means that Jesus MISSED THE JUBILEE by 2 years. Are you kidding me? That just doesn't make sense. However, Jesus' ministry from 26/27 to 30 means that He could have read the scroll in Isaiah proclaiming the year of the Lord's favor IN the year of jubilee. Now THAT sounds exactly like something our God would do. Of course God can do whatever He wants, but it seems like sending the Messiah in the fullness of time, in the year of jubilee, makes the most sense. But a crucifixion in 30 AD means we have to throw out the traditional understanding of Daniel's 70 weeks. I'm working on a post for this which I will share soon. Hello witness1 , and fellow watchmen family, ;-)
You have some really excellent points. ;-) I have to say I'm very interested in the whole Jubilee year thing - I'm convinced that these are very very significant to God. ***Disclaimer - This is an otter - trying to agree, and share the places where we /and others are interested in Jubillee years, - not trying to be combative, and trying to give another perspective. ;-)
I've read some and studied some and even watched teachings of several Messianic rabbis, and the consensus - is that Jewish [Non-messianic] rabbis and Messianic rabbis, and end times 'experts' and historians do not know when the Jubilee years were. Multiple calendars in use, Pharisees, and Essenes / Civil and Religious and then this is compounded by the fact that calendar systems were changed, and the Jews did not keep the jubilee that God commanded, and were punished for that.
No record of Jubilees being kept for over 2000 years. In all respect, I would strongly disagree with the notion that God "likes" or even "generally uses nice round numbers", - just taking into account the number of 7, number 12, 33, and of course the very significant numbers of 1260 days, and 1290 days of Daniel, which in themselves are 3 1/2 prophetic years, [1290 is with the lunar leap month added].
I totally agree with your assessment that Catholic/ Traditional 33AD Crucifixion is off for many reasons - but one of the biggest is that it makes Jesus too old.
Historians can pinpoint the Census when Cyreneas was Governor to 4/3 BC. This also corresponds to an amazing display of the Revelation 12 sign in incredible precision -- Sign of the Son of many in the Heavens. *** Remember how prophecies can and often have dual fulfillment. Gog of Magog being one of the most classic. Daniels prophecy being perhaps the most stunning example.
***There is a brilliant article - that I really believe you would appreciate - as well as so many other watchmen who are more knowledgeable than I on astronomy, and Daniel's prophecy. Your statement here is spot on. I think you knocked it out of the park. "But a crucifixion in 30 AD means we have to throw out the traditional understanding of Daniel's 70 weeks." I would simply add that this is even more true regarding the traditional, Catholic-based 33 AD/Friday crucifixion myth.
As you well know, witness1 , and others, there is a tremendous renewed interest - and it's growing - regarding Daniel's prophecy regarding the Annointed one, and if/whether part of the passage refers to the Messiah, and whether the traditional understanding/ interpretation refers to the AC and the Abominatin of Desolation in the middle of the week. There are growing numbers of Bible scholars and end times teachers and watchmen who are convinced that this is indeed, a prophecy with a triple, [or even multiple fulfillments   hmm.] Messiah was cut off- after 3 1/2 years of ministry hmmm. half of the 7 years. and literally cut off in the middle of the week.
This lack of understanding/ centuries of Catholic anti-Semitism totally missed the significance of Nisan 10, ***This was the day this year, 2018 - that the Jews chose to do the Pesach /Passover re-enactment sacrifice of the lamb on the Temple mount, WOW - and this was the day that the Passover lamb was selected and presented for inspection. Check this --- During the crucifixion -there was the 3 hrs of darkness - absolutely not a normal solar or lunar eclipse - the normal sacrifices in the temple were made to cease . hmmm. It fits perfectly. Christ selected and publicly presented on Sunday, Nisan 10, cut off in the middle of the week on Wednesday.
Attached is the article. witness1 and venge , and all who are fascinated by the Jubilee years will appreciate this, as well as those who study astronomy. **Particularly the section "An Amazing Corroboration" Resurrection Bible Prophecy 3 Days 3 nights.docx (43.87 KB)
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Post by disciple4life on Apr 13, 2018 2:49:15 GMT -6
But none of the is scripture. Do you have scripture to make the claim? Also, the oldest manuscripts show Sunday was the Lords day which Christians worshipped on. Not Shabbat. This is prior to Constantine. There is a verse, I don’t know the location off hand, but it says or eludes to Christ is our 24/7 sabbath. Sabbath was for man, not man for sabbath. Hi venge. I suppose in all fairness we both should provide scriptural proofs. I will devour to find where Francis is referenced in scripture and you devour to find where the sabbath day was changed from the 7th day to the 1st. Personally, I do not think either of us can find that proof. Actually, there are multiple and clear passages in scripture that show Christians - Jew and Gentile meeting on the 1st day of the week. ;-) But - We have to use precise wording. The Sabbath was never changed. The day Believers worship - changed, and the early church was all Jewish.
Also, the Christians in Acts, - which were almost exclusively Jewish, met together on Sunday, ***celebrating Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came and the Church was conceived. I really don't want to derail this thread, I think venge or someone should start another thread. ;-)
This is yet again, another example of Christ fulfilling the Feasts in perfect order and perfect precision. Not nearly, or close, but exactly. - Crucified on Passover - Nisan 14th and became our Passover Lamb - the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. - Buried on Feast of Unleavened bread, and was totally sinless - leaven was symbol of sin, and it all had to be cleaned out - every space and every corner of the house, attic and barn. - Raised again on First Fruits, and became the First Fruits of our redemption. ***Interesting side note here- for those keeping score at home. Passover always was and always will be Nisan 14 - explicitly commanded in scripture. Feast of Unleavened Bread [High Sabbath] always was and always will be Nisan 15, - explicitly commanded in scripture. But, interestingly, First Fruits IS NOT given/ listed anywhere as Nisan 16. This again is the lack of understanding of Jewish Sabbaths/feasts by Catholics. - Fifty days later, on Pentecost, the mostly Jewish disciples met to celebrate Feast of weeks- which was on a Sunday. Hmmmm. The church age began. - Early church [read Jews here] - met together on Sunday, we also have the record from scripture **which barb84 cited - two or three posts previous.
The Church in Colosse and Corinth were mixed - Jewish and Gentile, but predominately Gentile. It was already common practice within 40 years after Christ's death for Christians to meet together on Sunday. No one anywhere changed the Sabbath to Sunday. Saturday is still the Sabbath, but the point is - which day we choose to worship is not important. ;-)
Not a single mention anywhere in scripture of the church meeting together on the Sabbath to worship. Paul made it explicitly clear - Unmistakable - not to judge someone regarding a Sabbath/ or a new Moon. **This reference to the New Moon was a neon sign to every single Jewish reader - Feast of Trumpets!!!! , - Only Feast/Sabbath to begin on a new Moon.
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Post by boraddict on Apr 13, 2018 7:59:08 GMT -6
Thank you D4L. Your points are well taken.
Also you said: "But, interestingly, First Fruits IS NOT given/ listed anywhere as Nisan 16.
" My understanding is that First Fruits is the day following the weekly Sabbath. Thus, Passover is Nisan 14, Feast of Unleavened Bread is Nisan 15, and then First Fruits is the day following the weekly Sabbath.
Thus, in the year Lord Jesus was crucified, Passover was Wednesday (Nisan 14), Feast of Unleavened Bread was Thursday (Nisan 15), the Sabbath day was Saturday (Nisan 17), and First Fruits was Sunday (Nisan 18). Please correct me if I am wrong on this.
Another point that I would like to mention is concerning the year 30 AD. The prophecy in Daniel takes us to 27 AD showing that the calendar is off by two or three years, Lord Jesus being born in either 2 or 3 BC. The consequence of this gives the year 67 or 68 AD for the 40 year completion and not 70 AD. What happened during that time frame? That is, what happened three years before 70 AD? Was it the beginning of the campaign to destroy Jerusalem? If it was, then 70 AD is the completion of 43.5 years and perhaps the key to our present condition. That the 70 years are now completed (1948-2018) and the campaign to destroy Jerusalem is about to begin. Also that it will last three years (3.5). Thus, the first 3.5 years was at 67-70 AD, and the second 3.5 years will be at 2018-2021 AD.
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Post by witness1 on Apr 13, 2018 8:40:04 GMT -6
Thank you for the article disciple4life ! That 3 days and 3 nights thing has really been bugging me. I've always felt like the Friday thing didn't make sense, but I've never seen anyone come up with an explanation either. I do remember a discussion here awhile back postulating that the women could not have bought the spices with a Friday crucifixion since they could not have purchased and prepared them on Saturday, and I always thought that was a valid argument against a Friday crucifixion. This article makes so much sense!!! I agree that the jubilees are hard to know, which is why I was wondering whether venge's work agreed with what I have found, even though I agree there is no way to know with complete certainty. But there has recently been some archeological evidence that has come to light, and many scholars feel like they know the cycle with reasonable certainty. I found the following article very interesting, discussing the archeological findings and then fitting historical events into this framework: askelm.com/star/star021.htmI'm certainly no expert in this... I just read things on the internet  I was trying to figure out the best way to word my statement that "God uses round numbers". And this isn't something to make a theological argument on, but what I mean is that God usually uses HIS numbers. Three, 7, 12, 33, 40, 70, 120 are His numbers. Numbers that He uses repeatedly. Thirty-seven or 38 however are not numbers we see Him using, but we do see 40 days and 40 nights of rain, 40 years in the wilderness, 40 days that Moses was on the mountain, and 40 days Jesus was tempted in the wilderness. For the same reason, we are getting excited about the 70th anniversary coming up... we think it's significant simply because we believe the number 70 is significant to God. We didn't make a big deal out of year 68, and something as big as the temple being destroyed makes more sense TO ME to happen 40 years after the crucifixion rather than 37/38. I certainly agree it shouldn't be the only basis for a crucifixion date, but if it agrees with other information, in my mind it strengthens the argument. I love the thought that He was revealed on a Sunday and then (possibly? probably?) cut off in the middle of the week on a Wednesday. Wow. I never would have put that together, but that is absolutely amazing. Also a fascinating idea that the darkness would have literally forced the sacrifices and offerings to cease. Wow! Thank you so much for these thoughts! |
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Post by witness1 on Apr 13, 2018 8:46:55 GMT -6
Thank you D4L. Your points are well taken. Also you said: "But, interestingly, First Fruits IS NOT given/ listed anywhere as Nisan 16. " My understanding is that First Fruits is the day following the weekly Sabbath. Thus, Passover is Nisan 14, Feast of Unleavened Bread is Nisan 15, and then First Fruits is the day following the weekly Sabbath. Thus, in the year Lord Jesus was crucified, Passover was Wednesday (Nisan 14), Feast of Unleavened Bread was Thursday (Nisan 15), the Sabbath day was Saturday (Nisan 17), and First Fruits was Sunday (Nisan 18). Please correct me if I am wrong on this. Another point that I would like to mention is concerning the year 30 AD. The prophecy in Daniel takes us to 27 AD showing that the calendar is off by two or three years, Lord Jesus being born in either 2 or 3 BC. The consequence of this gives the year 67 or 68 AD for the 40 year completion and not 70 AD. What happened during that time frame? That is, what happened three years before 70 AD? Was it the beginning of the campaign to destroy Jerusalem? If it was, then 70 AD is the completion of 43.5 years and perhaps the key to our present condition. That the 70 years are now completed (1948-2018) and the campaign to destroy Jerusalem is about to begin. Also that it will last three years (3.5). Thus, the first 3.5 years was at 67-70 AD, and the second 3.5 years will be at 2018-2021 AD. I am really not understanding why you think the Daniel prophecy says to count 69 weeks of years to 27AD and then count 70 years from there and then figure out what happened in the 70th year. I know you mentioned multiple fulfillments, but this method of double counting doesn't make sense to me. The prophecy says: There is the going forth of a decree to restore and rebuild the city, and we should start counting. There is a period of 7 sevens There is another period of 62 sevens There is a final seven which is broken into 2 halves The total of these, 7 + 62 + 1 = 70 Could you please explain why you are counting 483 years and then another 70 years? |
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Post by disciple4life on Apr 13, 2018 10:13:02 GMT -6
Thank you D4L. Your points are well taken. Also you said: "But, interestingly, First Fruits IS NOT given/ listed anywhere as Nisan 16. " My understanding is that First Fruits is the day following the weekly Sabbath. Thus, Passover is Nisan 14, Feast of Unleavened Bread is Nisan 15, and then First Fruits is the day following the weekly Sabbath. Thus, in the year Lord Jesus was crucified, Passover was Wednesday (Nisan 14), Feast of Unleavened Bread was Thursday (Nisan 15), the Sabbath day was Saturday (Nisan 17), and First Fruits was Sunday (Nisan 18). Please correct me if I am wrong on this. Another point that I would like to mention is concerning the year 30 AD. The prophecy in Daniel takes us to 27 AD showing that the calendar is off by two or three years, Lord Jesus being born in either 2 or 3 BC. The consequence of this gives the year 67 or 68 AD for the 40 year completion and not 70 AD. What happened during that time frame? That is, what happened three years before 70 AD? Was it the beginning of the campaign to destroy Jerusalem? If it was, then 70 AD is the completion of 43.5 years and perhaps the key to our present condition. That the 70 years are now completed (1948-2018) and the campaign to destroy Jerusalem is about to begin. Also that it will last three years (3.5). Thus, the first 3.5 years was at 67-70 AD, and the second 3.5 years will be at 2018-2021 AD. Hello boraddict ;-) Yes, you are correct - regarding the Nisan dates - Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, and First Fruits. I was trying to highlight or underscore the point that many miss - which is that Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread move, and Passover is always a full moon. So in this way, Nisan 14 was Wednesday. - Christ cut off middle of the week. Darkness at the crucifixion made the sacrifices cease. ***Think about it, there were thousands of lambs to be sacrificed - approx. 400,000 people who had to come to Jerusalem for Passover. - Sundown Wed to Sundown Thursday was Nisan 15, Feast of Unleavened Bread. And then Feast of Weeks was NOT Moving. **No matter which day of the week Passover fell on, Unleavened Bread was always very next day- Nisan 15. and Feast of Weeks was always first day of the week. Sabbath ended at Sunset on Saturday. This is why one passage says they went while it was still dark.
Their Lord was crucified and in the tomb and the ONLY sign he gave that he was the Messiah - ?? ?? Bueller ? B u e l l e r r r r ? The sign of Jonah, 3 days and 3 nights in the great fish. Does any one think they would just go to sleep. ?? Not a chance.
As for the other points, regarding the Temple, there is no question, that the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. This is established firmly by Messianic Jews, Traditional Jews, as well as secular Historians across the world.
There is also the very very interesting thing I put in another thread - the miracles that happened for 40 years in the Temple up to the time it was destroyed. The candles would not stay lit, and the lot that was cast for the two lambs for the scapegoat - for the Day of Atonement, which was supposed to be random, - always came out the same. Mathematically impossible over 40 years time. This was confirmed by many witnesses, and recorded in the Jewish commentary to the Scripture - Midrash.
*** This happened 40 years - from 31 AD to 70 AD when the Temple was destroyed. Inclusive counting from 31 to 70 is 40 YRS. The Catholic / traditional date of 33 AD would make this impossible, It would have these miracles related to the perfect lamb for our atonement, having happened two years before Christ even died.
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Post by witness1 on Apr 13, 2018 10:40:41 GMT -6
The two lambs for the scapegoat thing is something I learned on this forum awhile back... from you possibly disciple4life? This is astounding and amazing that our God did that. Do you remember where you read this? I would like to share this information with a non-believing Jewish friend. She is a journalist and will want references  I think all in all we are laying out a convincing argument for 31 AD! Yes, inclusive counting would be 40 years. |
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Post by boraddict on Apr 13, 2018 14:51:38 GMT -6
Thank you D4L. Your points are well taken. Also you said: "But, interestingly, First Fruits IS NOT given/ listed anywhere as Nisan 16. " My understanding is that First Fruits is the day following the weekly Sabbath. Thus, Passover is Nisan 14, Feast of Unleavened Bread is Nisan 15, and then First Fruits is the day following the weekly Sabbath. Thus, in the year Lord Jesus was crucified, Passover was Wednesday (Nisan 14), Feast of Unleavened Bread was Thursday (Nisan 15), the Sabbath day was Saturday (Nisan 17), and First Fruits was Sunday (Nisan 18). Please correct me if I am wrong on this. Another point that I would like to mention is concerning the year 30 AD. The prophecy in Daniel takes us to 27 AD showing that the calendar is off by two or three years, Lord Jesus being born in either 2 or 3 BC. The consequence of this gives the year 67 or 68 AD for the 40 year completion and not 70 AD. What happened during that time frame? That is, what happened three years before 70 AD? Was it the beginning of the campaign to destroy Jerusalem? If it was, then 70 AD is the completion of 43.5 years and perhaps the key to our present condition. That the 70 years are now completed (1948-2018) and the campaign to destroy Jerusalem is about to begin. Also that it will last three years (3.5). Thus, the first 3.5 years was at 67-70 AD, and the second 3.5 years will be at 2018-2021 AD. Hello boraddict ;-) Yes, you are correct - regarding the Nisan dates - Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, and First Fruits. I was trying to highlight or underscore the point that many miss - which is that Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread move, and Passover is always a full moon. So in this way, Nisan 14 was Wednesday. - Christ cut off middle of the week. Darkness at the crucifixion made the sacrifices cease. ***Think about it, there were thousands of lambs to be sacrificed - approx. 400,000 people who had to come to Jerusalem for Passover. - Sundown Wed to Sundown Thursday was Nisan 15, Feast of Unleavened Bread. And then Feast of Weeks was NOT Moving. **No matter which day of the week Passover fell on, Unleavened Bread was always very next day- Nisan 15. and Feast of Weeks was always first day of the week. Sabbath ended at Sunset on Saturday. This is why one passage says they went while it was still dark.
Their Lord was crucified and in the tomb and the ONLY sign he gave that he was the Messiah - ?? ?? Bueller ? B u e l l e r r r r ? The sign of Jonah, 3 days and 3 nights in the great fish. Does any one think they would just go to sleep. ?? Not a chance.
As for the other points, regarding the Temple, there is no question, that the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. This is established firmly by Messianic Jews, Traditional Jews, as well as secular Historians across the world.
There is also the very very interesting thing I put in another thread - the miracles that happened for 40 years in the Temple up to the time it was destroyed. The candles would not stay lit, and the lot that was cast for the two lambs for the scapegoat - for the Day of Atonement, which was supposed to be random, - always came out the same. Mathematically impossible over 40 years time. This was confirmed by many witnesses, and recorded in the Jewish commentary to the Scripture - Midrash.
*** This happened 40 years - from 31 AD to 70 AD when the Temple was destroyed. Inclusive counting from 31 to 70 is 40 YRS. The Catholic / traditional date of 33 AD would make this impossible, It would have these miracles related to the perfect lamb for our atonement, having happened two years before Christ even died.
Thank you D4L. I am on board with all but the 70 AD conclusion. In our time there is 70 years (1948-2018) and then lets say a minimum of 3.5 years of tribulation. The pattern is 70 and then 3.5 or 70 and then 7 years. Comparatively, the pattern for the early saints was one of the following: 70 and then 3.5 70 then 7 27 and then 40 and then 3.5 27 and then 3.5 and then 40 or as the Catholics appear to be contending 30 and 3.5 and 37 However, working backwards we can say 70 AD minus 40 years is 30 AD and this is your conclusion taking us back for the next 30 years to 1 AD. However, Lord Jesus was not born in 1 AD but 2 or 3 BC. Thus, the count is off by lets say 3.5 years. Or perhaps 70 weeks. or something. Since Lord Jesus' ministry began when he was 30 years old then the prophecy of Daniel giving 27 AD means that Christ was born in 3 BC. So the count begins there. Or perhaps the 3.5 years is at the beginning as follows: Christ is born then 3.5 years, then 30 years and 40 years. This gives us 3.5 year and then 70 years ending at 70 AD. At any rate the summation provided above by witness1 above is correct as follows: "There is a period of 7 sevens There is another period of 62 sevens There is a final seven which is broken into 2 halves The total of these, 7 + 62 + 1 = 70 Could you please explain why you are counting 483 years and then another 70 years? " My answer is, 7 sevens was for building in Jerusalem and that was 49 years 62 sevens from that time is 434 years Thus, 69 sevens is the total of 483 years taking us to the year 27 AD However, the count beginning at the birth of Christ is a secondary count as follows: 27 AD minus 30 years gives the birth of the Savior in 3 BC Thus, 30 years from the birth of the savior to 27 AD plus 40 years is 67 AD Thus, an additional 3.5 years must be added to take us to 70 AD but where? Is it 30 + 40 + 3.5 or 30 + 3.5 + 40 or 3.5 + 30 +40 At any rate, in my opinion we can not go from 1 AD but 27 AD that is given in Daniel's prophecy. It follows then that the first half of the 70th week being 3.5 years is included as follows: 3 BC when Lord Jesus was born + 30 years to when he started his ministry + 3.5 years to when he was cut off + 40 years to 70 AD. It shows that there are two separate counts. the count of sevens by years and a secondary count of 70 years and these two counts overlap each other as follows: 69 sevens to 27 BC Then subtract 30 years to the birth of Christ at 3 BC (this is the 30 years of the second count) then 27 AD + 3.5 years of the first count taking us to 30 AD then the remaining 40 years of the second count to 70 AD Then in our time, 70 years of the secondary count (1948-2018) followed by the second half of the 70th week of the first count. That is my best guess. |
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Post by venge on Apr 13, 2018 15:38:53 GMT -6
Hi venge. I suppose in all fairness we both should provide scriptural proofs. I will devour to find where Francis is referenced in scripture and you devour to find where the sabbath day was changed from the 7th day to the 1st. Personally, I do not think either of us can find that proof. Actually, there are multiple and clear passages in scripture that show Christians - Jew and Gentile meeting on the 1st day of the week. ;-) But - We have to use precise wording. The Sabbath was never changed. The day Believers worship - changed, and the early church was all Jewish.
Also, the Christians in Acts, - which were almost exclusively Jewish, met together on Sunday, ***celebrating Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came and the Church was conceived. I really don't want to derail this thread, I think venge or someone should start another thread. ;-)
This is yet again, another example of Christ fulfilling the Feasts in perfect order and perfect precision. Not nearly, or close, but exactly. - Crucified on Passover - Nisan 14th and became our Passover Lamb - the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. - Buried on Feast of Unleavened bread, and was totally sinless - leaven was symbol of sin, and it all had to be cleaned out - every space and every corner of the house, attic and barn. - Raised again on First Fruits, and became the First Fruits of our redemption. ***Interesting side note here- for those keeping score at home. Passover always was and always will be Nisan 14 - explicitly commanded in scripture. Feast of Unleavened Bread [High Sabbath] always was and always will be Nisan 15, - explicitly commanded in scripture. But, interestingly, First Fruits IS NOT given/ listed anywhere as Nisan 16. This again is the lack of understanding of Jewish Sabbaths/feasts by Catholics. - Fifty days later, on Pentecost, the mostly Jewish disciples met to celebrate Feast of weeks- which was on a Sunday. Hmmmm. The church age began. - Early church [read Jews here] - met together on Sunday, we also have the record from scripture **which barb84 cited - two or three posts previous.
The Church in Colosse and Corinth were mixed - Jewish and Gentile, but predominately Gentile. It was already common practice within 40 years after Christ's death for Christians to meet together on Sunday. No one anywhere changed the Sabbath to Sunday. Saturday is still the Sabbath, but the point is - which day we choose to worship is not important. ;-)
Not a single mention anywhere in scripture of the church meeting together on the Sabbath to worship. Paul made it explicitly clear - Unmistakable - not to judge someone regarding a Sabbath/ or a new Moon. **This reference to the New Moon was a neon sign to every single Jewish reader - Feast of Trumpets!!!! , - Only Feast/Sabbath to begin on a new Moon.
I appreciate that but sadly, I am done. I am deleting my reply’s even if some are quoted. I am not here to argue or troll as some had said. For the time till I’m ready, I will not be posting much. I will not be starting any threads. |
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Post by witness1 on Apr 13, 2018 16:53:49 GMT -6
So @borradict, basically you are saying that you see 73 years from the time Jesus was born until the destruction of the temple, so you are looking for 73 years now, from the birth of Israel until the Great Tribulation begins? Am I understanding this correctly?
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Post by boraddict on Apr 13, 2018 20:21:56 GMT -6
So @borradict, basically you are saying that you see 73 years from the time Jesus was born until the destruction of the temple, so you are looking for 73 years now, from the birth of Israel until the Great Tribulation begins? Am I understanding this correctly? That is close; however, what I am saying is there are a number of counts resulting from Daniel's prophecy the first of which is 70 sevens. We know where 69 of those sevens are in history taking us to 27 AD. The question is the last seven years of that count. Where do they fall? I was convinced that they were on our horizon; that we would see, or better said, the world would see seven years of tribulation. However, I am rethinking my position and feel that the seven years are divided into two 3.5 year segments separated by 2,000 years; approximately. If that is correct, then following may be true: 1) The repeated 70 year count (1948-2018): This repeated count is followed by 3.5 years of the 70 sevens. 2) The original 70 year count (3 BC to 67 AD): This original count is followed by 3.5 years of the 70 sevens. 3) The count of 70 sevens: This is 69 sevens that end at 27 AD and one seven from 1 and 2 above (3.5 + 3.5 years). 4) The count of 70 weeks is the ministry of Lord Jesus from 27 AD to 28 AD (the acceptable year of the Lord). This is my best guess. |
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Post by boraddict on Apr 13, 2018 20:52:14 GMT -6
Since we might surmise that the Savior started his ministry at Passover 27 AD and ended his ministry at Passover 28 AD then the acceptable year is that period of time. There is also the 40 days of fasting at the beginning and 40 days to Pentecost at the end in addition to other days that bring us to 70 weeks.
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Post by disciple4life on Apr 14, 2018 3:33:44 GMT -6
Since we might surmise that the Savior started his ministry at Passover 27 AD and ended his ministry at Passover 28 AD then the acceptable year is that period of time. There is also the 40 days of fasting at the beginning and 40 days to Pentecost at the end in addition to other days that bring us to 70 weeks. Hello Boraddict.
I might be mistaken - wasn't that a mis-type.? You have "started his ministry at Passover 27 AD, and ended his ministry at Passover 28 AD." ?? That's one year.
I think it should be "Started his ministry at Hanukkah 27 AD and ended his ministry at Passover 31 AD. - that's where we get 3 1/2 years.
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth - just to clarify ?? ;-)
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Post by boraddict on Apr 14, 2018 12:16:58 GMT -6
Since we might surmise that the Savior started his ministry at Passover 27 AD and ended his ministry at Passover 28 AD then the acceptable year is that period of time. There is also the 40 days of fasting at the beginning and 40 days to Pentecost at the end in addition to other days that bring us to 70 weeks. Hello Boraddict.
I might be mistaken - wasn't that a mis-type.? You have "started his ministry at Passover 27 AD, and ended his ministry at Passover 28 AD." ?? That's one year.
I think it should be "Started his ministry at Hanukkah 27 AD and ended his ministry at Passover 31 AD. - that's where we get 3 1/2 years.
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth - just to clarify ?? ;-)
Thank you D4L. What you have stated is one possibility. However, if we consider that there might be four counts as I referenced above, then the fourth count is by weeks. Thus, there is a count of 70 weeks. It means that the 3.5 years has no application to the Savior's ministry but to the tribulation period from 67 to 70 AD. Thus, all seven years of tribulation are accounted for; because, 3.5 years would come from 67-70 AD and 3.5 years would come from 2018-2021 AD. Consequently, all 70 sevens are accounted for: 7 sevens, 62 sevens, and 1 seven (3.5 + 3.5). Because of that, the count of 70 sevens identifies 27 AD as the start of the Saviors ministry and then the prophecy applies secondarily as a 70 week count. It is believed that the Savior's ministry is 3.5 years; however, an acceptable year to the Lord might in fact be one year as follows: "Isa. 61:1-2, "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted*, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD...."
Luke 4:17-19, 17 "And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."
Thus, I am convinced that the acceptable year started Passover 27 AD and ended at Passover 28 AD. The remainder of the 70 weeks is counted both before and after the acceptable year. |
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Post by davewatchman on Apr 14, 2018 17:16:48 GMT -6
This turned into an amazing thread. I find it fascinating how a thread can start off with one topic and then meander into other issues and then culminate in a controversy of some kind. I can't really tell what happened. What did you girls do to verge? Thank you for the article disciple4life ! That 3 days and 3 nights thing has really been bugging me. I've always felt like the Friday thing didn't make sense, but I've never seen anyone come up with an explanation either. I do remember a discussion here awhile back postulating that the women could not have bought the spices with a Friday crucifixion since they could not have purchased and prepared them on Saturday, and I always thought that was a valid argument against a Friday crucifixion. This article makes so much sense!!! The only problemo with that deal is that He wasn't cut off in the middle of a week day, or a week of days, He was cut off in the middle of a Daniel "week" of years where each day represents a year. Thursday He ate the true Passover in the upper room with His disciples. Thursday evening He was betrayed in Gethsemane and the suffering began. Friday He was put on the mock trial, scourged and crucified. The Jews were trying to rush so that they could eat their erroneous Passover. He was put in the tomb before sundown on Friday evening. Resurrected early on the first day of the week, Sunday morning. Counting inclusively: Three Nights:Thursday night. Friday night. Saturday night. Three Days:Friday day. Saturday day. Sunday morning. I think this is another biggie issue to get right. Because it's THE biggie sign, the sign of the Son of Man. This is unarguably the sign of the Son of Man, the sign not to see from the wrong vantage point, it's a once in a lifetime event. Yes, He was talking about His Body. And we are that Body. Jesus didn't resurrect His own physical body, His Father did. When Jesus rose from the dead, we rose with Him. We passed from death, into life. We won't see the Sign of the Son of Man, because we ARE the Sign of the Son of Man. In three days I will raise it up is billions of resurrected saints from all the ages, that will be raised when the inner court is measured. Billions of resurrected saints from all the ages, from Adam until now, will light up the stratosphere. Then we who are alive and remain will join them in a fraction of a second, in the twinkling of an eye. This is going to be the strangest display of lights illuminating the sky seen by all the tribes of the earth, and they will mourn. And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. Did it ever make you wonder why would we mourn? To see the Son of man coming on the clouds of the sky? We won't. Only the tribes that remain on the earth will mourn because the reality will hit them that they have missed the boat. Three Days and Three Nights in the Heart of the Earth.
Getting back to the three days and three nights in the heart of he earth. Just like Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish. Are we sure that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb? Or can the "heart of the earth" be something else like the "heart of the seas"? Man's heart is exceedingly wicked."For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, And the earth is compared to men's hearts in the parable of the soils where some seed falls on good ground, some on bad. So also the story in the Scripture seems to indicate that the three days and nights were much more than just being the time spent in the tomb. The three days and nights included the totality of time that He became sin for us and suffered on our behalf. It started with His arrest on Thursday night in Gethsemane, this is where the heart of the earth began. Prior to this, Jesus could go wherever He wanted to, nobody could touch Him even if they tried. It was not yet His time. The heart of the earth included all the time Jesus suffered, the trial, the scourging, the crown of thorns, the crucifixion, the jeering, the soldiers casting lots for His garments and the time He spent in that tomb. All of it. I've read that some men have not survived even just the scourging that had taken place. Check out the Script. Check out the verses with the "three days" or "third day" timing. Look at them again. The sequence always begins by starting when Jesus is still alive with the betrayal or suffering. It is never left out. Watch for it and see if you can't see it too. I have seen it written that: "a good watchman watches in all directions". "He was wounded for our transgressions".
Here seems to be an accurate description of the suffering. It's one thing to read over that He was scourged and whipped. But take a look at the actual instrument of torture that they used time and time again. The Most Gruesome Details of the Crucifixion of Jesus.Peaceful rest of the Sabbath. |
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hmm.] Messiah was cut off- after 3 1/2 years of ministry hmmm. half of the 7 years. and literally cut off in the middle of the week. 
