Post by venge on Apr 8, 2018 12:27:35 GMT -6
I see a lot of Pre Tribulation doctrine followers say that the Seals are God's wrath therefore the rapture will occur before this happens. Rather then put together a laundry list of things that disprove this, I will add a few facts and rather ask questions to you, the reader, to ask yourself if that is true. I challenge you to not think what you were taught but rather search out the scripture and think about it.
In the Seals we have the 4 horseman. Each horseman is a man. Not an angel. When God had caused destruction throughout the Old Testament he sent either angels to bring it about, he did it himself or he aloud it to happen by not protecting Israel/Judah because of their wickedness at which mankind did the wrath.
One we get to the 5th seal, the martyr's seal, we see the souls of saints of God (Christians or believers of Christ) asking God when will you have vengeance on the men on earth that killed us? Otherwise if the seals were Gods wrath, didn't he kill them? Mankind killed these Christians and they are asking for God to avenge them because "vengeance is mine saith the Lord". When we get to the astral events of the Moon darkened, the Sun darkened, the heavens roll away as a scroll, this event mimicks Joel, Matthew 24, Revelation 6 etc...on and on and on. In each case the son of man comes after.
In fact, we find God saying "Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the day of the Lord". Well, we know Elijah will be in the first 1260 days of Daniel's 70th week. So Christ 2nd advent must come AFTER 1260 days or at least after Elijah because Elijah paves the way for Christ.
Then we look at the end of that chapter and see people ask for rocks to fall on them because the great day of his wrath has come. Well if it has come now, it hadn't come before now. That is saying seals 1-6 were not his wrath.
When we look at the koine greek term for tribulation, time of sorrow or persecution we get the word thlípsis. But that word does not denote God's wrath because that word is orgḗ or thumos.
When we get to Chapter 7 we see the following:
The angels are about to pour of God's wrath but another angels says don't hurt the earth yet! If God's wrath has been poured out since Seal 1, why did He wait till seal 7 to say, Oh, I forgot, we need to seal the 144,000 so they don't get hurt, seal them and continue to Armageddon. No, that would seem out of line. He is about to pour out his wrath but before he does, he needs to get his 144,000.
When we reach chapter 8 lets see what is said,
1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.Focus on what happened there as it IS KEY! An angel is at an alter. He has a censer and he burns incense on it with the prayers of saints, that is, the prayers of the dead saints from the 5th seal asking God when will you pour out your wrath. To do this, the angel must fill it with fire and cast it to the ground for judgement to happen. Next we see the trumpets about to sound. What does it all mean? It means doing that shows now is the time of God's wrath because having prayers with hot coals of fire and casting them to the ground causes God's wrath. Let me show you in Numbers 16..
They take censers and add fire or hot coals to them. This resembled prayers going up to God like incense rises to go God.
Here, Korah in Num 16 is trying to move in on Moses and Aarons right as priest of God. When we get to the end of the chapter, God is mad with Korah and people who will not obey Moses. But see how Moses fills a censer w/fire before a plague begins.
When we look at Exodus 9 we see
Moses again takes ash from a furnace resembling the incense from the censer and sprinkles it up as incense rises or as prayers go up to heaven. Immediately after this a plague begins.
Again, In Ezekiel 10 we see the following verse
Ezekiel is commanded to fill his hands with hot coals from an alter and scatter them over the city which was Jerusalem to pronounce Gods impeding destruction on that city. Once again, his plague starts.
Listen to what Matthew Henry writes
I will stop here for now but I wanted to show you seals 1-7 are not God's judgement but Man and Satans. Remember each horseman was a man. I will get into why Jesus opens the seals even if they are not wrath later...
Why is it Satan's wrath?
Revelation 12:12-13 says,
The devil comes down to you, he is finally kicked out of heaven now, having great wrath. And he has a short time. Interesting because God says the Great Tribulation will be shortened for the elect sake and we are the elect. Now watch what happens to back this up in the next verse.,..
Once the devil is kicked out of heaven to the earth he persecutes Israel. Israel escapes for a time, times and a half..half of the full 7 years of daniels 70th week; the 3.5 years, 1260 days or 42 months of the tribulation. Satans wrath, not God's wrath.
For those who read my False prophet text about the sea, and waves and floods and how scriptually the sea is nations, waves/floods are large forces of people, read the next 2 lines with that in heart
Satan casts out a flood (basically his empire's large military army) after her that Satan might cause her to drown. ie die. But, the earth (men on the earth since men come from the earth) stop the flood (the ACs armies) and helped her. Well, when men help Israel or Christians, Satan will be very mad. What does the last verse say?
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Hope you understand and have an open mind, with scripture you cannot fake an outcome. My purpose is to open your mind to the truth. God's truth.
In the Seals we have the 4 horseman. Each horseman is a man. Not an angel. When God had caused destruction throughout the Old Testament he sent either angels to bring it about, he did it himself or he aloud it to happen by not protecting Israel/Judah because of their wickedness at which mankind did the wrath.
One we get to the 5th seal, the martyr's seal, we see the souls of saints of God (Christians or believers of Christ) asking God when will you have vengeance on the men on earth that killed us? Otherwise if the seals were Gods wrath, didn't he kill them? Mankind killed these Christians and they are asking for God to avenge them because "vengeance is mine saith the Lord". When we get to the astral events of the Moon darkened, the Sun darkened, the heavens roll away as a scroll, this event mimicks Joel, Matthew 24, Revelation 6 etc...on and on and on. In each case the son of man comes after.
In fact, we find God saying "Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the day of the Lord". Well, we know Elijah will be in the first 1260 days of Daniel's 70th week. So Christ 2nd advent must come AFTER 1260 days or at least after Elijah because Elijah paves the way for Christ.
Then we look at the end of that chapter and see people ask for rocks to fall on them because the great day of his wrath has come. Well if it has come now, it hadn't come before now. That is saying seals 1-6 were not his wrath.
When we look at the koine greek term for tribulation, time of sorrow or persecution we get the word thlípsis. But that word does not denote God's wrath because that word is orgḗ or thumos.
When we get to Chapter 7 we see the following:
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads
The angels are about to pour of God's wrath but another angels says don't hurt the earth yet! If God's wrath has been poured out since Seal 1, why did He wait till seal 7 to say, Oh, I forgot, we need to seal the 144,000 so they don't get hurt, seal them and continue to Armageddon. No, that would seem out of line. He is about to pour out his wrath but before he does, he needs to get his 144,000.
When we reach chapter 8 lets see what is said,
1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
17 And take every man his censer, and put incense in them, and bring ye before the Lord every man his censer, two hundred and fifty censers; thou also, and Aaron, each of you his censer.
18 And they took every man his censer, and put fire in them, and laid incense thereon, and stood in the door of the tabernacle of the congregation with Moses and Aaron.
19 And Korah gathered all the congregation against them unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto all the congregation.
20 And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.
18 And they took every man his censer, and put fire in them, and laid incense thereon, and stood in the door of the tabernacle of the congregation with Moses and Aaron.
19 And Korah gathered all the congregation against them unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto all the congregation.
20 And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.
Numbers 16:46
And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the Lord; the plague is begun.
And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the Lord; the plague is begun.
When we look at Exodus 9 we see
8 And the LORD said unto Moses and unto Aaron, Take to you handfuls of ashes of the furnace, and let Moses sprinkle it toward the heaven in the sight of Pharaoh.
9And it shall become small dust in all the land of Egypt, and shall be a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast, throughout all the land of Egypt.
10And they took ashes of the furnace, and stood before Pharaoh; and Moses sprinkled it up toward heaven; and it became a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast
9And it shall become small dust in all the land of Egypt, and shall be a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast, throughout all the land of Egypt.
10And they took ashes of the furnace, and stood before Pharaoh; and Moses sprinkled it up toward heaven; and it became a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast
Again, In Ezekiel 10 we see the following verse
And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city. And he went in in my sight.
Ezekiel is commanded to fill his hands with hot coals from an alter and scatter them over the city which was Jerusalem to pronounce Gods impeding destruction on that city. Once again, his plague starts.
Listen to what Matthew Henry writes
"The scattering of the coals of fire upon the city, which were taken from between the cherubim (v. 1-7). II. The removal of the glory of God from the temple, and its being upon the wing to be gone (v. 8-22). When God goes out from a people all judgments break in upon them."
Why is it Satan's wrath?
Revelation 12:12-13 says,
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
The devil comes down to you, he is finally kicked out of heaven now, having great wrath. And he has a short time. Interesting because God says the Great Tribulation will be shortened for the elect sake and we are the elect. Now watch what happens to back this up in the next verse.,..
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent
For those who read my False prophet text about the sea, and waves and floods and how scriptually the sea is nations, waves/floods are large forces of people, read the next 2 lines with that in heart
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Hope you understand and have an open mind, with scripture you cannot fake an outcome. My purpose is to open your mind to the truth. God's truth.
