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Post by venge on Apr 9, 2018 17:56:59 GMT -6
Will look at it when I can and I will comment after.. =P Ok Read it! Definetly interesting. Hadn't thought of that particular part of scripture in that light. I will have to think about it. He makes a good argument regarding only saints of God become priests and kings, this is a true saying of God. The thing that is odd though is they are called elders. Not saints. Not elect. And there is only 24. Not an innumerable amount of Christians saved. Based upon that logic, I am not sold on his work but he does offer insight into something overlooked. We throughout the New testament are called Saints and Elect but never Elders. Elders were the Church helpers to the Shepherd of the Church like a Deacon functions. I will ponder this and wait to write more till I think about it some. Good find! |
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Post by fitz on Apr 9, 2018 20:02:13 GMT -6
Thank you witness1 ... When you get old, you forget details, even if you've read it recently...you just do. LOL. Very interesting article, but I have to tell you...I was taught 30 years ago or more that the 24 Elders cannot be anyone but the raptured Church. So I've always believed that. The plain reading of it was always clear to me, but I definitely also learned it from some teacher, probably J. Vernon McGee, and that cemented it in my mind. No question, we are the Kings and Priests and we are the ones that will reign on earth with Christ. We are in heaven in Chapters 4 & 5. As explained to me, 24 is symbolic of the whole number of the Church (everyone raptured pre-trib), though I can't remember why. See...old age.  |
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Post by witness1 on Apr 9, 2018 20:07:57 GMT -6
I can’t remember if it wasn’t one of his articles or another I found, but regarding the 24, it has something to do with the complete number of priests in Leviticus I think who rotated duties. I’ve forgotten some of the details. Let me know if you learn more and I’ll do the same. Like you, there was a good long period of time when I concluded a pre-trib rapture must not make sense because there are so many holes and discrepancies in the dispensational model. So many things people try to force in order to justify the doctrine of the rapture. But then I came to the same conclusion as fitz, that leaving us in the tribulation boils down to works. Saying you have to have enough faith to withstand the mark of the beast is different than “all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved”. So I’ve studied and studied and prayed God would keep me if He indeed does plan to leave me here during the tribulation. And I confessed my sins and the sins of my people and prayed for wisdom and understanding like Daniel. And then I listen to Amir’s teaching on the Mystery of the Rapture, and he has some good points. And I read this article above, and Greg has some good points. And then I see some of the abominations in our world with child trafficking and the hidden sin of the Catholic Church. And I think, “the true body is SO divided, and this prostitute of a body is deceitfully wicked.” The true body needs to stand united against the true enemy. We are not each other’s enemies, but sometimes it feels that way when we are all fighting so much (I’m speaking more of my own church than members of this forum, although there have been some fights on the past here as well.) And we are divided because each side has some solid scripture to support their position. So my conclusion is that somehow there is a Seal 1 rapture but we also have to throw out most of the dispensational teachings. 😊 And we need to figure this out together so we can get to work fighting the battle against the real enemy. Amir- The Mystery of the Rapture |
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Post by witness1 on Apr 9, 2018 20:12:36 GMT -6
Thank you witness1 ... When you get old, you forget details, even if you've read it recently...you just do. LOL. Very interesting article, but I have to tell you...I was taught 30 years ago or more that the 24 Elders cannot be anyone but the raptured Church. So I've always believed that. The plain reading of it was always clear to me, but I definitely also learned it from some teacher, probably J. Vernon McGee, and that cemented it in my mind. No question, we are the Kings and Priests and we are the ones that will reign on earth with Christ. We are in heaven in Chapters 4 & 5. As explained to me, 24 is symbolic of the whole number of the Church (everyone raptured pre-trib), though I can't remember why. See...old age. Too funny. We just posted this at the same time. Yes, I remembered just the other day that my teenage self had felt quite sure of the position of the 24 elders. The one thing the LaHaye books did for me is get me interested in the end times. So after reading the Left Behind books I read Revelation. And at age 14, I clearly remember where I was sitting when I read about the 24 elders and knew in my spirit that it was us. I forgot that knowledge for a long time when the enemy began attacking the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture, but this truth has brought a lot of comfort when I start to doubt, and I really feel like God showed it to me 20 years ago. |
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Post by witness1 on Apr 9, 2018 20:34:31 GMT -6
Will look at it when I can and I will comment after.. =P Ok Read it! Definetly interesting. Hadn't thought of that particular part of scripture in that light. I will have to think about it. He makes a good argument regarding only saints of God become priests and kings, this is a true saying of God. The thing that is odd though is they are called elders. Not saints. Not elect. And there is only 24. Not an innumerable amount of Christians saved. Based upon that logic, I am not sold on his work but he does offer insight into something overlooked. We throughout the New testament are called Saints and Elect but never Elders. Elders were the Church helpers to the Shepherd of the Church like a Deacon functions. I will ponder this and wait to write more till I think about it some. Good find! Thinking about this idea of the title of elder. I haven't given it much thought previously. I like the way you think. Thinking out loud here... elders are different than deacons. My husband and another man planted a church together 5 years ago, and they had a long discussion about the difference between elders and deacons and the criteria for each when they were deciding what they wanted the structure of the church to be and what people to put in which position. Elders are more like pastors, and deacons are servants. To be an elder carries a heavy burden of responsibility, and elders must display certain characteristics that are quite hard to realistically maintain. Deacons do not share the same level of responsibility. "This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it." Titus 1:5-9 So it actually seems to me that to be an elder is a step higher than "saint". We are now all saints through the blood of Jesus, but we are not all elders. Even the elders of our churches, my husband included, cannot maintain all of these criteria. For now, we can only repent when we fail and ask for forgiveness when we lose our temper again or neglect to be hospitable. We don't always know the best instruction to give or the best way to rebuke those who contradict it. But... when we get to heaven and have our glorified bodies and see Jesus face to face... then we keep the criteria of elder perfectly and all have a new title. We will rule and reign with Jesus. We will be the overseers, the elders in the millennium. We are not that yet... right now we are elect saints. PS... thank you for actually reading the article. That says a lot. |
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