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Post by watchmanjim on May 3, 2017 20:11:21 GMT -6
While I'm not saying you're wrong, this is a little disturbing to me in that I was certainly not taught this way--
I was taught that when a church-age saint dies, they go to Heaven and the presence of the Lord and are able to interact with God, with the angels, and with other saints in heaven. Not be hidden or restrained to a certain point, such as in the glassy sea, or under the altar.
We had always thought those 5th seal martyrs were martyrs from the first half of the Tribulation, and they were told to wait until the martyrs from the second half of the Tribulation were gathered. They huddled under the altar more because they wanted to than because they had to-- as an elite group with great camaraderie in their devotion to God during their exploits on earth, they wanted to be under the altar, and facing God, in His direct line of sight at all times, much like a faithful pet loves to lie under a wood stove, close to his master, although he could wander off into the rest of the house if he wanted to.
We were also taught that "Paradise" is empty today, because Jesus went and set the captives free when He died on the cross, before he rose again. He took those souls to Heaven with Him to abide in the direct presence of God and enjoy the peace and oppulence of Heaven. That the cross was what eliminated the need for Paradise--after the cross, all who died in Christ would instantly be present with the Lord.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 5:18:21 GMT -6
Watchmanjim,
I'm shifted forward a bit. I think the tribulation martyrs under the altar are those from all times and they are waiting on the ones that come during the tribulation. The sea of glass - is the laver of cleansing that is in the inner court. We have been washed in the blood of the Lamb. I don't know whether we would need to be washed again in the purifying laver(?)... Christ's blood is powerful enough to wash us whiter than snow, but the law will require those that come by the law(70th week) will need cleansing. To me those in the sea of glass are all that have come by the law.
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Post by watchmanjim on May 4, 2017 5:39:38 GMT -6
Yes, but when Christ died, their cleansing should have been complete.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 5:45:31 GMT -6
That's what I would think too! That's why I believe that these in the laver are those that 'did not' come by the way of Christ.
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Post by Gary on May 4, 2017 8:34:37 GMT -6
Fyi, just moved this to The Rapture section since it is more of a general discussion on eschatology and the rapture.
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Post by rt on May 4, 2017 10:17:30 GMT -6
While I'm not saying you're wrong, this is a little disturbing to me in that I was certainly not taught this way-- I was taught that when a church-age saint dies, they go to Heaven and the presence of the Lord and are able to interact with God, with the angels, and with other saints in heaven. Not be hidden or restrained to a certain point, such as in the glassy sea, or under the altar. We had always thought those 5th seal martyrs were martyrs from the first half of the Tribulation, and they were told to wait until the martyrs from the second half of the Tribulation were gathered. They huddled under the altar more because they wanted to than because they had to-- as an elite group with great camaraderie in their devotion to God during their exploits on earth, they wanted to be under the altar, and facing God, in His direct line of sight at all times, much like a faithful pet loves to lie under a wood stove, close to his master, although he could wander off into the rest of the house if he wanted to. We were also taught that "Paradise" is empty today, because Jesus went and set the captives free when He died on the cross, before he rose again. He took those souls to Heaven with Him to abide in the direct presence of God and enjoy the peace and oppulence of Heaven. That the cross was what eliminated the need for Paradise--after the cross, all who died in Christ would instantly be present with the Lord. I guess I was not clear in this thread about this idea. I shared my reasons why I believed that the crystal sea is a repository for righteous souls in this threadunsealed.boards.net/thread/95/distinguishing-various-resurrections?page=1&scrollTo=753
I believe that the crystal sea, is in heaven, Paul indicates to us that there are levels in heaven: I think that the idea that paradise is empty today may contradict what Paul says above. Paul says that the man (many think this is Paul himself) was in Christ and was caught up into paradise. This would have been years after Christ ascended into heaven. I think this is the passage you may be referring to: No where here do we see "paradise" being emptied. Most commentaries interpret the passage to mean that Jesus led captivity captive, which is an Old Testament way to signify that one had conquered their enemy (this passage actually quoted Psalm 68:18). Jesus conquered our enemy who held us captive to sin and death. He set US free, not necessarily the souls of the dead, though they too were spiritually freed. The point of the passage is that because he conquered the enemy,Jesus can now bestow gifts to those who are set free from captivity by Him. The object is living breathing believers on earth not the souls of the dead. 1 Peter 3:18-20 tells us that Jesus proclaimed to those in prison, we assume this means He descended after His death to proclaim the gospel to those confined to Hades/Hell because of their disobedience. Which may explain what Ephesians is talking about here. Again the emphasis in the Ephesians passage is the ascension, so that Jesus could fulfill all things which would include the fulfillment of Psalm 68- that He would receive gifts among men. Which is the reason Paul quotes it in his letter to the Ephesians. Also, in the letter to Ephesus in the Revelation Christ promises those who overcome that they will eat of the tree of life which is in paradise. You notice that John is careful to describe the scene he is caught up into in great detail in Rev 4, he never mentions or describes the tree of life, which we are told earlier is in paradise, so where is it? Where is paradise? John does not mention the "tree of life" again until Revelation 22, where he describes New Jerusalem when it descends onto the New Earth, that place, New Jerusalem was somewhere else before it could descend. Now that phrase "descend" what can it mean except that it was ascended (hm... this sounds familiar), just being silly, anyway New Jerusalem we are told in Revelation 21: 22 no longer has a temple (tabernacle) in it, whereas earlier in the Revelation we see that there is a temple: Again we see that in Revelation 22 that New Jerusalem will reside on the new earth and the implication is that because there is no more curse the throne of God and the Lamb will now dwell among men, in paradise where the tree of life is. New Jerusalem I believe is the heavenly city of God, with the heavenly temple within it, which is where the throne of God is. The implication of the passages in Revelation is that there is a separation between the throne/temple and the rest of New Jerusalem. I believe that the crystal sea acts as the doorway into the throne room of God. Can the souls of the righteous enter into it, I do not know, perhaps so, John himself is caught up into it, so that is a real possibility. The souls under the altar may not be confined to that place in heaven (New Jerusalem) but that is where John sees them, and they are souls, when he first sees them, they do not yet have regenerated physical eternal glorified bodies. I also do not think that the crystal sea which I believe contains paradise is isolated from the presence of Christ. Christ is not limited to sitting on a physical throne. I think He moves freely throughout the levels of heaven. God's ultimate goal is to once again live among men physically, like He walked with Adam. But because of sin and the curse associated with it, God cannot reside with men. So God appointed unto us a savior- Jesus Christ who would make a way for the goal to be achieved. Through Him mankind can be cured of the curse. Yes when we die, we are freed from the curse of sin and death. But we do not yet have our glorified bodies as Christ has. When we do then we can stand as men (and women) before the throne of God. Our adoption as sons, which we eagerly wait, for is predicated on the redemption of our physical bodies. Hence the need for the crystal sea, cleansing? |
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Post by BrazenLaver on May 4, 2017 11:11:17 GMT -6
Some times its good just to think out loud. 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.  What is present with the Lord? It can not be the old body. Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. These Martyrs are waiting like many of those dear saints before us for the event of putting on immortality. That is why these brothers and sisters are not in body. Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:  They are fully conscious and they are aware of their surroundings and are interacting with the Lord. They are robed with the Robes of Righteousness but we cannot infer the event of the resurrection of the body has occurred yet. Why? The New Testament saints are waiting for the same event we are waiting for. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  The shedding of innocent blood requires God attention. Paul, Peter, and most of the disciples are martyrs. Our brothers and sisters souls that were persecuted by Nero and the Romans are crying out; as well as those that are being persecuted now in the middle east and around the earth. Genesis 4:9-10 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.  Notice that after the sixth seal John notices a fantastic event that causes him to be asked a question. Revelation 7:9-10 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.  Nowhere in this passage does it say the souls. It was a sudden event and this multitude "stood before the lamb." They are in their bodies, my friends. John had not seen them before and this causes and Elder to give him some understanding of this sudden event. Rev.7:13-17 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.  This my friends is our "harpazo" pre-tribulation event. So many commentators over the years have assumed that because they came "out of" great tribulation that we must infer they came out of the middle of the midpoint of the tribulation. Did not Lot escape Sodom? Did he suffer any of the destruction of Sodom? Look at the text of Genesis. Genesis 19:29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.  When you read that passage you could infer that in the midst of the destruction of Sodom, God took him out of it. If I take you "out of" harms way did you suffer first or did you escape it? 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. The wicked world is preparing for the wrath of God after the sixth seal in Rev. 6:16-17 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?  God's Fire is poured out after the great multitude is gathered around his throne and the silence of the 7th seal along with our righteous prayers presented by the Angels of the seven trumpets around the altar. Rev. 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.  My friends I do not want to be apart of the Trumpet judgments; especially when the Locust of the Abyss is released upon everyone that does not have the seal of God in their forehead.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 13:34:45 GMT -6
For me..'
1) First, 'paradise' is mentioned 3 times and none indicate it was destroyed. In the story of Lazarus and the rich man - they were separated by 'a gulf' - which Christ did away with. I don't see that it is 'no more'. I could fathom the idea that those in the bosom of Abraham would/should rightfully proceed those coming by way of Gentile origin. That would be respectful to them. So, maybe it was emptied at the time of Jesus' visitation of believers from the OT, but now that the gulf is gone, has since only been filled with non-heaven bound souls.
2) 'The Tree in the Paradise of God'... 'of God' make a big difference to me. Maybe paradise really means a 'holding place'. Strong's ranges from Hades to Upper Heaven in definition. Maybe 'holding place' of any of them is a better idea... Then 'Paradise of God' could be a holding place of divine holiness.
3) The crystal sea - again, I see that the word of God says the blood of the Lamb cleanses us from ALL sin - so I just don't know about believers in Christ needing to be re-washed, but those who come by the law(from beginning of time to Christ's resurrection, picking back up at the 70th week to the end of the Millennium). That make for all to be washed.
4) The New Jerusalem. I have always had this feeling that believers will be in the 'inner most holy of holies' with him. I'm feeling like the New Jerusalem may be a holy city that will come to earth and sit as the 'inner most holy of holies' - a place that the inhabitants may traverse from earth to the third heaven. We know that there will be people on earth in the Millennium and there appears to be priests that do service in the outer courts with the people. But we are going to be 'like Him'.... something pretty different from the rest and can appear before God. I'm thinking there is still a place that is like the 'holy of holies', until the 1000 years and last war are over. After that eternity is not told - only that we will be with God forever. **This #4 is a heartfelt urging that I have had ever since I read Ezekiel. People in our bible study kept asking 'where are we? I'm seeing animal sacrifice and I thought that was done away with!' - I kept saying 'I'm just hearing not to worry where we are, we may eventually become a part of Christ in eternity - would it be so crazy to be happy to cease to exist as 'me, for who I am' and just become lost in Him?'....now I know that probably sounds crazy to some - but I feel that's where he wants us to be, with Him! Has anyone loved someone (young or old) that when you hug them, you almost wish you could 'mesh' into one with them? I have and I think he wants it more that I could.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 13:40:41 GMT -6
BrazenLaver,
I understand that it might be to escape 'out of' or in the 'midst of', but the scripture says
Gen 19:17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.
18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:
19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:
20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.
21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.
22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither.
VERSE 22 - THE ANGELS COULD NOT DESTROY SODOM UNTIL LOT WAS "OUT" OF THE CITY.... MEANING BEFORE IT HAPPENED.
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Post by watchmanjim on May 4, 2017 14:54:34 GMT -6
Let us not confuse the millenial reign, and Ezekiel's Temple, with the New Jerusalem and the eternal state. Ezekiel's Temple, as I understand it, will be built for use during the Millennial Reign. Then, after all that, and the Great White Throne Judgment, the New Heaven and New Earth are formed, and New Jerusalem comes down, and there will be no more temple.
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Post by rt on May 4, 2017 15:16:27 GMT -6
Let us not confuse the millenial reign, and Ezekiel's Temple, with the New Jerusalem and the eternal state. Ezekiel's Temple, as I understand it, will be built for use during the Millennial Reign. Then, after all that, and the Great White Throne Judgment, the New Heaven and New Earth are formed, and New Jerusalem comes down, and there will be no more temple. Just to clarify, the idea that there is no more temple, spoken of at the end of the Revelation is a direct reference to the heavenly city, not the temple as it will exist on earth during the millennium. Whereas earlier in the Revelation John talks about there being a heavenly temple: There is a heavenly tabernacle/temple. John enters into it when he is called up there to receive the Revelation. Jesus entered into it when He ascended |
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Post by rt on May 4, 2017 15:23:27 GMT -6
For me..' 1) First, 'paradise' is mentioned 3 times and none indicate it was destroyed. In the story of Lazarus and the rich man - they were separated by 'a gulf' - which Christ did away with. I don't see that it is 'no more'. I could fathom the idea that those in the bosom of Abraham would/should rightfully proceed those coming by way of Gentile origin. That would be respectful to them. So, maybe it was emptied at the time of Jesus' visitation of believers from the OT, but now that the gulf is gone, has since only been filled with non-heaven bound souls. 2) 'The Tree in the Paradise of God'... 'of God' make a big difference to me. Maybe paradise really means a 'holding place'. Strong's ranges from Hades to Upper Heaven in definition. Maybe 'holding place' of any of them is a better idea... Then 'Paradise of God' could be a holding place of divine holiness. 3) The crystal sea - again, I see that the word of God says the blood of the Lamb cleanses us from ALL sin - so I just don't know about believers in Christ needing to be re-washed, but those who come by the law(from beginning of time to Christ's resurrection, picking back up at the 70th week to the end of the Millennium). That make for all to be washed.4) The New Jerusalem. I have always had this feeling that believers will be in the 'inner most holy of holies' with him. I'm feeling like the New Jerusalem may be a holy city that will come to earth and sit as the 'inner most holy of holies' - a place that the inhabitants may traverse from earth to the third heaven. We know that there will be people on earth in the Millennium and there appears to be priests that do service in the outer courts with the people. But we are going to be 'like Him'.... something pretty different from the rest and can appear before God. I'm thinking there is still a place that is like the 'holy of holies', until the 1000 years and last war are over. After that eternity is not told - only that we will be with God forever. **This #4 is a heartfelt urging that I have had ever since I read Ezekiel. People in our bible study kept asking 'where are we? I'm seeing animal sacrifice and I thought that was done away with!' - I kept saying 'I'm just hearing not to worry where we are, we may eventually become a part of Christ in eternity - would it be so crazy to be happy to cease to exist as 'me, for who I am' and just become lost in Him?'....now I know that probably sounds crazy to some - but I feel that's where he wants us to be, with Him! Has anyone loved someone (young or old) that when you hug them, you almost wish you could 'mesh' into one with them? I have and I think he wants it more that I could. I agree with you that we are cleansed from sin by the blood of Christ, we do not need to be cleansed again from sin, that is not what I am saying. What I said and am saying is that our physical bodies are corrupted and it is when our soul is reunited with our regenerated cleansed eternal and glorified bodies that we pass through the crystal sea into the heavenly tabernacle via the resurrection that we can stand in the presence of God the Father as sons. Our adoption as sons, which we eagerly wait, for is predicated on the redemption of our physical bodies. |
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Post by rt on May 4, 2017 15:37:23 GMT -6
It is a fact that John uses the Greek word for "out of" - EK interchangeably with the Greek word for "away from"- Apo. John does not always write in the classical and correct form of the Greek. Someone on another thread I visit studied Greek and verified this. Therefore it is not clear which meaning he is implicating here, since he uses the word to mean both things.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 15:43:15 GMT -6
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Post by watchmanjim on May 4, 2017 21:06:31 GMT -6
Well, this discussion has been most fruitful for thought, at least, and you know, it makes at least as much sense as anything else I've ever heard before. Especially the overall timing of things.
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