A revised view of the pretrib rapture

Good question watchmanjim. One that will take some time to answer in depth so I will break it up into sections.

First of all the timing.

One very important detail about the Revelation that I think many overlook, is that the place John is called up to in heaven is the heavenly tabernacle which served as the pattern for the earthly tabernacle and later the temple in Jerusalem. The heavenly tabernacle is the seat of God's throne and the one on earth which is patterned after it serves as His footstool, the Ark of the covenant in particular. (1 Chron. 28:2, Ps. 99:5, Isaiah 66:1)

So when John enters the heavenly tabernacle, holy place, we find that he sees things that correlate to what was in the earthly tabernacle/temple. The seven flames of fire, the sea, the altar of incense, the cherubim. 

Now many people believe that what John first sees is a future event, but I tend to believe that he was actually shown an event from his past.

Let's look at two different passages:


 You notice that both passages have something in common: "the seven spirits of God". In the first passage we see them described as seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, this is represented in the tabernacle on earth by the seven branched menorah. But in the other verse the seven spirits are described as seven horns and seven eyes on the Lamb that is standing as if slain. Why the difference in description? I think the obvious answer is that John is witnessing Christ's entrance into the heavenly Holy place after He was crucified and resurrected. What John sees is the transition from the Old Covenant era to the New Covenant era from a heavenly perspective. Isn't it interesting that we get a picture of this transition in the upper room, when the disciples receive the Holy Spirit which appears to them as flames of fire!  Also in the passage we see that in fact the new song sung by the elders and living creatures reflects the New Covenant too.

you will notice that they literally sing the song of the New Covenant, for reference see Hebrews chapters 9 and 10. Christ entered the heavenly sanctuary as the Lamb that was slain to redeem mankind, from every tribe tongue and nation, they are made to be a kingdom and priests to God. I would add that Hebrews tells us that this event only happened once. It will not happen again. Christ will never enter heaven as the Lamb standing as if slain again.

also note what John says at the beginning of the book of Revelation

John writes that we, believers of the New Covenant, have been made a kingdom, priests to God. John says this is something that has already happened, for those believers he was writing to. So we must realize that what John witnesses in Revelation 4 is in fact the inauguration of the New Covenant in Christ, not an event from the future but rather an event from John's past. Once I saw this I could not get over how obvious it is. But when you have seen it standing on a different foundation for years, it is obscured. 

I point this out because when we realize that John saw Christ entering heaven after His death and resurrection, we have a different perspective on the timing of the opening of the seals on the scroll. 

Others (BrazenLaver) have pointed out that they think the seals correlate to the colored horses that Zechariah 1 talks about, you can look it up for yourself. I would agree except that like the change in the Holy Spirit, I believe that there was a change in how these horses are sent out. Like the Spirit is now sent out by the Lamb, so too the seal horses and riders are now sent out by the Lamb as He removes the seals from the scroll. Since the riders were active during the Old Covenant era, my belief is that they continued to be active under the New Covenant era, the difference is that they are now subject to Christ.


Therfore I would assert that the four horses and riders have been active under the authority of Christ since His resurrection, and that their affects have been seen on earth since that time. 


I will continue with the identity of the horses as time permits.

RT

Wow, that is very interesting, RT, and I think you may be onto something.

Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; 

But with what you've said now, it will be even more intriguing to me to wonder what is the identity of the 24 elders.

Ok. . . . but which 24 get the thrones?
Or I should say, have the thrones?
As you pointed out earlier, the timing represented in these passages has to be significant. I had always thought that 12 of these 24 were the twelve apostles, and I was trying to figure out who the other 12 were--ie, sons of Israel, etc. But there were some discrepancies that made me think that was not going to be the case.

For me - I see these as representative of OT and NT believers, not specifically 24; more like cumulative believers of the kingdom - 12 x 2(two covenants). Since when we become saved; our souls are in Heaven - I think you see us at the very beginning 'in heaven'. I HATE saying "I think", but since we are not certain and we are kicking around ideas - this is what I am seeing.

Okay now for the identity of the four horsemen of the seals

I think the first horse and rider is the one that people have trouble identifying. The other three are fairly easy. But before we get into it, I want to first talk about their purpose.

The white horse and rider takes freedom from the world
the red horse and rider takes peace from the world
the black horse and rider takes food and sustenance from the world 
the ashen horse and riders take life from the world

But why do they do this? Other than the fact that they are sent out by the Lamb when He removes their seal from the scroll. That is where we need to look at the Old Testament where we see in Zechariah other horses and riders. Zechariah is confronted with a vision of three colored horses and their riders he asks the Lord what they are?

From this passage we see that their purpose is to "patrol the earth". Later in Zechariah 6 we see more colored horses, but this time they are in teams, pulling 4 chariots. The horses were colored Red, black, white and dappled, again Zechariah asks, what they are? He gets an answer:

So here we see that they patrol the earth and those heading north ( the black and white horses) appease the wrath of God. That word "appease" means that they quite God's wrath. 

So we can assume, that the seal horses and riders serve the same function. They are spiritual entities (spirits of heaven) that influence geopolitical events on earth. Much like the "princes" of Persia and Greece in the book of Daniel. (Daniel 10:20) 

Now to the identity of that first rider, we know that he possesses a crown, and a bow and he goes out conquering. His job is to conquer. Typically this is done by nations and their leaders, hence the crown of authority. 

If we look at the fourth seal and riders we get a clue as to the identity of this rider

You will notice that the fourth horsemen's job is to kill, they have authority over one fourth of the earth to carry out their task, but how do they accomplish it? The do it by employing the talents of the other horses and riders-  with the sword, with famine and what's this..... Pestilence and wild beasts??? The word "pestilence" in the Greek means death, so they kill with sword (seal 2) , famine (seal 3), death (seal 4)  and  wait.....wild beasts? Could these wild beasts be related to the first horse and rider? 

I say resoundingly....yes! These are not wild animals of earth, like lions and tigers and bears (oh my!). They are wild beast nations, that go out conquering other peoples and nations. 

Daniel gives us great detail about the "beasts" that will rule over the Jewish people namely Babylon, Media- Persia, Greece and Rome. 

Look at this passage:

here you see the same effects of the seal horses being employed, notice that the word "beast(s)" appears twice, however they are not the same Hebrew word. The first word is 
"chayah" and means "live" it has with its meaning the idea that life is sustained or preserved, the second is the word "bahema" and means "mute" (beasts that cannot speak) this would be actual animals.  So these "wild beasts" devour nations, in order to preserve them? Well yes isn't that what happened to Israel when they went to in Egypt during the famine and were reunited with Joseph? And also in Babylon, etc.... and even today as they are dispersed around the world? Yes these beasts will be used to also bring about death. But remember what their purpose is, to appease God's wrath. Sometimes God has to remove people in order to stay His wrath. 

One day it will not be so:

So the first horse rider is the spiritual entity that influences rulers of the earth to conquer other peoples and nations. 
the Second horse and rider is the spiritual entity that influences nations to war with one another
the third horse and rider is the spiritual entity that influences food production and economies
the fourth horse and riders take life using the effects of the first three, he rides in tandem with the others and singles out those who will perish because of the effects they bring onto the earth.

Could the first rider be responsible for influencing ISIS..... yes,  Iran..... yes. Russia..... yes and on it goes. Throughout time these entities have been granted authority to patrol the earth. They influence events on earth at any given time. Since the day that Jesus was handed the scroll and He assumed the kingdom of God.


RT

Ok, I can see how that would all work. Most people want to see the 4 riders, or at least the first one, represent an actual live human being, but it need not be so.

Interesting that the way you have shown it, it seems that these horsemen take on some of the characteristics that certain pagan gods have been considered to have (god of war, god of crop production, god of commerce, etc.)

Linking these horsemen with the horsemen of Zechariah (and perhaps elsewhere in the scripture) brings more questions. I think I can see a clear connection. The conception I had always had about Revelation 6 was that the horsemen were a new and cataclysmic thing that would be introduced early in the Tribulation. Even if they had been active before, this would be their hour of climactic glory, far greater than anything previous. But now we are saying that this is something we have already seen, and if we compare the world scene in the 2 millennium-long church age, to the world previous to Christ, we see little difference (I think) in the atrocities and woes that were committed by these four entities or categories of woe. This lack of difference between BC operations, and AD operations, is still a bit of a mental hurdle to me, because I still have it in my mind that these 4 horsemen are introduced as a MASSIVE GAME-CHANGER. I understood in Rev 6 that John was being shown something new and amazing that would be a change from that point onward-- MASSIVE destruction all at one time, or over a very very short period of time. (ie, 3.5 years).

Rev 6:1  And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 
Rev 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. 
Rev 6:3  And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 
Rev 6:4  And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. 
Rev 6:5  And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 
Rev 6:6  And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. 
Rev 6:7  And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 
Rev 6:8  And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. 

The phrase I bolded in v. 6 is one I have always considered key, but what does it exactly mean? Two big questions-- 1. Does "them" refer to Death and Hell, or does "them" refer to the 4 horsemen? (or other, or both) and 2. What does "the 4th part of the earth" mean? Are we talking about geographically, topographically, politically, populationwise, etc.? And by a fourth, is it a clear-cut swath (ie, all of Africa might be 1/4 of the land area) or is it random here and there (a swath of Canada, a swath of Argentina, a swath of Angola, a swath of Australia, a selection of Pacific islands, a swath of Poland, etc.) or wildly random ("it seems, though we're not sure, that a higher percentage of the people in Laos died than in any other country, and for some reason Paraguay was hit the least hard") or is it micro-precise--"Every fourth person around the earth has been killed." Or--much more nebulous--just that during this time period, whatever that time period is, a fourth of the people perished from these things.

If this has been ongoing since the beginning of the church age, have 1/4 of the population all along the way truly been killed by these? I suppose it might be possible, especially when you take starvation and disease into account, but let's not forget that this is nothing new. I don't know if you can accurately say that 1/4 the population of the entire church age was killed off by these drastic things, though maybe. It would have to take infant mortality into account, I think. There have been times and places where 1/4 or more of the people have been wiped out, but not consistently along the way, I don't think.

I still think the nature of these horsemen is too drastic to ONLY mean that they have been at work throughout the church age, and in fact before. My gut feeling is still that 1/4 of the population will die within a very short time.

But I could be wrong.