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Post by BrazenLaver on May 5, 2017 6:32:07 GMT -6
BrazenLaver, I understand that it might be to escape 'out of' or in the 'midst of', but the scripture says VERSE 22 - THE ANGELS COULD NOT DESTROY SODOM UNTIL LOT WAS "OUT" OF THE CITY.... MEANING BEFORE IT HAPPENED. Amen! Yes it does not mean they were in the middle of it...they escaped before. Thus my explanation of they came "out of" great Tribulation in Rev.7. This great host in Revelation 7 escaped the Tribulation before it happened.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 6:53:20 GMT -6
Amen! Amen! And Amen!
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 7:52:12 GMT -6
Escaping before is a recurring theme in the Bible...
Enoch Noah and family Lot and family Daniel not in the fiery furnace And... I'm missing some others I bet
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Post by rt on May 5, 2017 9:24:00 GMT -6
Also what is interesting about the days of Noah and the days of lot as the Lord describes in Luke 17, Noah went into the ark 7 days before the flood came upon the earth (Genesis 7:1-4), Lot was rescued the same day that Sodom was destroyed. There is a whole bible study here in this passage....so much to chew on, but seeing that this is the "quick reply" I will be brief. Could the comparison to Noah be for the church in that they will enter "God's Ark" 7 years before the Son of man is revealed, with the "7 days" correlating to the 7 years of the 70th week, and could the comparison of Lot relate more to those who will be rescued from Mystery Babylon on the day of its destruction AKA the nation of Israel (Rev 18, Jer 51)
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Post by watchmanjim on May 5, 2017 15:56:27 GMT -6
Not sure about that one, rt, but it probably does mean something!
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 16:19:42 GMT -6
One thing I can say for sure is that I have looked at a lot of people's different views of what goes on during the seven years, today. And all of them are Christians and all of them have had something right along the way over the past 5 to 10 years that I have watched them. ALL OF THEM agree that the 70th week is fixing to start and we can expect the rapture anytime before October. I've even seen a non rapture believer last night admit to,at least, a mid trib move in her thought process. I think we all know that something is brewing. Let's all be the light in our part of the world and with the influences of people that we have, and be found making good decisions and being good representations of the Christ that we follow. Let us Drop seeds of truth as much as possible, whether it be quips of scripture or stories from the Bible that are like situations we deal with. Let us be dropping Jesus's name off of our tongues maybe, instead of the word God, that we may be making very clear the way that we have found. We all weren't told to go to Africa to be missionaries or anywhere else, God put us where we are. Let's make the most of it!
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Post by rt on May 8, 2017 9:44:08 GMT -6
I have a little time today so I'd like to move on to the sixth seal.There is a whole lot in here, but I want to start by saying that I think that the fifth and sixth seals are removed around the same time and that they represent the resurrection of the dead in Christ (5th seal) and the rapture of those who are alive and remain (6th seal). But before I get into the rapture I want to look at some of the physical effects on the earth that result from the sixth seal's removal. - Great earthquake
- Sun became black as sackcloth made of hair
- whole moon became like blood
- stars fall from sky to earth
- sky split
- every mountain and island moved from their place
Some folks will look at these effects and notice how similar they are to the effects that occur later in the Revelation (Rev 16:18-20) and also the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24:29-31). As a result they place the timing of the removal of the sixth seal to coincide with these other events. Though they look similar, a careful reading shows that they are in fact not the same effects. More on that later. These effects result from the removal of the sixth seal from the scroll. I believe they will result from the same cataclysmic event, which I believe is the rapture. Though I do concede that these events may not all happen at the same time, they could be spread out over time, by weeks or even months.You have a great earthquake, in scripture, earthquakes often accompany resurrection events.
You have the sun appearing blackened as if it is covered with sackcloth made of hair. Now sackcloth was made of animal hair, typically goat hair, which is very course. People made sacks from it,hence the name, but they would also wear it during times of mourning, because it kept the wearer in a constant state of discomfort. It was rough and itchy. It had a loose weave, and light could penetrate through it. So when John describes the sun in this way, it is not completely darkened like it is at the time of Christ's visible return at the end of the 70th week. It also doesn't seem to be caused by an eclipse but rather by some environmental factor, such as smoke, or even ash from a volcanic eruption , it could also be the result of the stars falling, as in meteor or asteroid collisions with the earth? Here's an interesting about a "dark" day that occurred in the 18th century. www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18097177 The whole moon became like blood. This too is a moon that is still visible, though darkened, it is not devoid of light. Note that because John describes the moon as "whole" that the timing of this event occurs at the full moon. A blood red moon can also be caused by other factors other than an eclipse, it can also be caused by ash particles suspended in the air.
Stars fall from the sky to earth. Stars are sometimes symbolic for people or angelic entities in scripture. But I would suggest that this is a physical visible effect on earth, they may be meteors or asteroids. It seems that there are many but not an abundance, the passage says that they fall like unripe figs fall from a tree shaken by a great wind. This could also be a clue as to what time of year this may happen, unripe figs would show a fig tree of spring. Interestingly Jesus shares the parable of the fig tree in connection with events of the end times and His return. That fig tree is also depicted as a tree in springtime. The sky is split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up. The parallel passage to this is in Isaiah Because this sign is shown here in Isaiah in connection with the Lord's return to earth, many again place the sixth seal's removal at the end of the 70th week. But you will notice that the analogy of the fig tree is somewhat different. Th e Isaiah passage shows a fig tree in the fall, a post harvest tree, whereas the 6th seal shows a pre-harvest tree of spring. Now perhaps I take this analogy a bit too far, but it is true that scripture uses the fig tree to symbolize the nation of Israel (Jer 24:1-10, Hosea 9:10, ) Jesus curses the fig tree (Mark 11: 13-14) and most commentaries say that this corresponds to the idea that the nation of Israel failed to bear spiritual fruit, by rejecting their savior. The fig tree at the opening of the sixth seal may depict the nation of Israel in it's pre-harvest condition before the events of the tribulation produce spiritual fruit. Whereas the events at the end of the 70th week, show Israel in a post harvest condition, after it has yielded its spiritual fruit. I believe that there is a reason that the events of the sixth seal and this passage in Isaiah are so similar and yet analogous to different seasons of the fig tree. That reason is because they are in fact different events. More on this idea in my next post. What the sky being split actually is, I cannot say, some say a nuclear bomb. I tend to believe that people on earth will actually get a glimpse of heaven opened up to receive the body of Christ. When Jesus was "caught up" at His ascension, people witnessed it. They saw Jesus being received by a cloud. Moses saw into the heavenly throne room on mount Sinai. Contrary to what many scholars think, I do not think the rapture will be a secret event, I think people on earth will see something- the sky will be split. They may not understand what they are seeing and misinterpret it to mean something else,or even be deceived into believing it is something else happening. Every mountain and Island are moved from their place- this may be the result of the great earthquake, it is a fact that earthquakes cause land masses to shift from their places. The 2011 earthquake in Japan for instance, moved its coastline 8 feet. It also caused a slight shift in the earth's axis (6.5 inches), shortening the day by about 2 microseconds. Imagine a global earthquake, one can only imagine what kind of impact this could have on the earth. This earthquake however will pale in comparison to the one that occurs later in the 70th week. Note the difference in the description here. It is described as the greatest earthquake to ever happen, causing the "great city" to be split into three parts, nations fall, every island flees, they don't just move from their place, they run as if escaping, the mountains are not found, they completely disappear. Now Islands and mountains can also be used metaphorically in scripture to describe nations and kingdoms. Whether or not these are allegorical descriptors matters not, it is what we see happening to these islands and mountains that is relevant to show the differences in events. At the sixth seal they are moved from their places, after the pouring of the seventh bowl the run away, and are no longer found. A striking difference in terms. To be cont'd as time allows
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Post by BrazenLaver on May 8, 2017 11:51:09 GMT -6
Also along those lines we know that the Church is also connected with the 6th seal event. At Pentecost Peter spoke these words from the Prophecy of Joel chapter 2. Acts 2:18-20 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: Why would Peter speak of this prophecy regarding the Church of Jesus Christ? We know that the first part of this prophecy occurred that day when God's Spirit was poured out on men and women and the Church was conceived in Jerusalem. What about the last part of this prophecy? The "notable day of the Lord?" This sign is identical with the sixth seal of Revelation. Thus it brings me to this passage... Isaiah 66:7-10 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 19:36:48 GMT -6
Looks to me that chapter 7 can totally be removed and still tell the story in sequence with the seals. I see that the actions in chapter 8 verses 3-5, are magnified for viewing in Revelation 7. Since chapter 8 starts out with silence and an action, I believe chapter 7 tells you in advance. I base that on the same thing that RT speaks of- in that this is a picture of the heavenly tabernacle. In Numbers 16 we see a story and what it may look like on earth and why. Fire in the sensor was thrown to seal/atone those chosen by God. v46. It seems to me we are seeing a picture from heaven - the action that goes on in heaven as the fire is thrown to the earth and 144,000 are sealed in the midst.
I've even wondered that it may be fire from the incense in heaven, yet to us it would be the hail and fire mentioned in 8:7.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 19:44:25 GMT -6
Also, I have heard chapter 7 verse 17 said is if people shall have no memory of the bad things anymore. But instead I see these tears as when Joseph's brothers eyes were opened. They are the tears of sorrow for how they have behaved and remorse for what had become, and the forgiveness that will take place.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 20:02:23 GMT -6
Rt said "I also do not think that the crystal sea which I believe contains paradise is isolated from the presence of Christ. Christ is not limited to sitting on a physical throne. I think He moves freely throughout the levels of heaven."
I totally agree! I believe we will be where he is, and also have the freedom to go through the levels of heaven that he does. The Jews in the millennium will receive their earthly promise and will move horizontally on the earth 'to' the temple yet believers will be 'in' the New Jerusalem forevermore traversing up and down and free to move where he goes, attending to Him.
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Post by watchmanjim on May 8, 2017 20:13:52 GMT -6
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Just a passing thought. . . . if the fig tree is Israel, what would untimely figs be? I don't know for sure--just wondering.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 20:20:07 GMT -6
It means 'when'(?) They fall when they shouldn't... maybe if its stars, they fall during the day... or if it is the things of man's confidence, they fall earlier than they were expecting!...being that they mocked that it wouldn't happen at all!
The 'olive' tree is Israel. The fig tree represents the things one has confidence/trust in.
Do a search on 'fig tree'.... you'll see the heart of the matter.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 20:38:52 GMT -6
Rt- I too see the heaven opening. Stephen saw it.
I read Romans 7-10 today. I also don't believe it will be a silent thing. God intends to make Israel jealous, and if Christians go first, it will make the 'works obedient only' Jews extremely jealous! They will see and know. I also notice in chapter 6 verse 16 and 17, they know that this is the wrath of the "Lamb"! It is not as if they have no idea what this is about, nor did they call it the wrath of God. They are going to know exactly what this is about and who!
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Post by rt on May 9, 2017 14:22:29 GMT -6
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Just a passing thought. . . . if the fig tree is Israel, what would untimely figs be? I don't know for sure--just wondering. I have a slightly different view on this, First just want to share some interesting facts about fig trees: You see the fig tree is an interesting kind of fruit bearing tree. The first ripe figs appear in late spring/early summer. These grow on the old wood or the previous year's growth. The early or first fruits are not as numerous or sweet as the fruit of the second crop that ripens later on the new growth in late summer through September. Unlike other fruit trees, figs cannot ripen once they are picked so they need to fully ripen on the tree. The fruit is easily damaged and must be picked carefully. One method still used today, is that a cloth or net is opened above the ground beneath the tree, while a stick is used to strike the branches to knock the fruit from the tree. The fruit falls into the net, where it lands undamaged. Those unripe figs may represent people of the nation of Israel who die prematurely or in an untimely manner, before the nation of Israel bears its spiritual fruit. The "mighty wind" we are told is what makes them "fall" . There are many watchers who see some kind of battle that precedes or coincides with the rapture. This may be what causes the unripe figs to fall, so to speak. The figs in my opinion represent the people of Israel, and in particular their spiritual viability, read the following passage: You see the "good figs" (the captives of Judah) are to be planted once again in the land (Jerusalem/Israel) to never be plucked up again. They will be given a heart to know God, they will be His people and He will be their God, they will return to Him with their whole heart. This has yet to happen. You see they are still spiritual captives of ("mystery") Babylon. It isn't their political rebirth as a nation that the scripture looks for, it is their spiritual rebirth. So the spring tree with it's unripe figs, shows that the spiritual fruit is beginning to grow, but is not yet fully ripe. Therefore we know that the spiritual harvest of Israel has not yet begun. Therefore the events described at the removal of the 6th seal happen before the events of the 70th week work to create the spiritual produce of the nation of Israel. As previously noted, there are two crops for the fig tree, and as we see in prophecy, there are also two harvests of Israel. The first spiritual harvest (the firstfruits) are the 144,000, which are sealed at the beginning of the 70th week. While the second harvest which is gathered in late summer/ fall is made up of the rest of the nation of Israel that enters into the millennial kingdom to settle the land once again just as Jeremiah says.
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