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Post by boraddict on Jan 10, 2018 1:00:19 GMT -6
Barb, another explanation that came to mind is that the items in the second woe are as you said, layered.
Thus, the overlapping parts would be:
Rev. 9:13-21, a great war
Rev. 10:1-11, a church gathering
Rev. 11:1-14, the temple and the two witnesses
All three beginning at the same time in the second woe.
I do not understand why the temple structure must be built in the first 3.5 years. I mean, can't these three overlapping parts occur in the second 3.5 years? The reason that I say this is that the rapture has taken place in the first woe, before all this bad stuff in the second woe begins. Why does the rapture and the temple need to take place in the same time frame if the woes show the rapture in the first woe and the temple in the second. They are in two separate woes, two separate periods of time.
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 10, 2018 3:08:10 GMT -6
That's my understanding, too. So, even if the 70th week has been fulfilled once, there seems to be a 7 year period yet to come. This is my understanding, too. I want to add, that I think that many prophecies do have not only a single fulfilment or a double fulfilment but maybe multiple fulfilments on several layers. This may include several spiritual layers as well as fulfilments at several times or in several places.... Yes, and Yes, I totally agree with you both. This is the most concise, clearest explanation of the timeline I've seen. There are also countless visual charts, and diagrams on the internet. They can get super messy and complicated as different people insert the bowl judgements, and seals, and natural disasters, etc, etc, onto these.
The thing I love about this one, is that they point out that while there are lots of differing opinions about the order, and whether the bowls, are just more descriptions of seals, or the identity of the 2 witnesses, etc, they point out the vast majority of Bible scholars agree that the tribulation is a 7 year period.
***For me, this is the key. Some aspects were fulfilled in Christ, and as Stephan said, some passages may even have multiple fulfillments over centuries, but we know with 100% certainty that the tribulation is a future 7 year period. HOW?/ Why? Because Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks was extremely precise. and even secular historians agree that the time from the decree to rebuild the temple to the Crucifixion of Christ matched this prophecy exactly - there are still 7 years left. This is from Gotquestions.org "An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against “your people.” Daniel's people are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and Daniel 9:24 speaks of a period of time that God has given “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things. This is 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. (Some translations refer to 70 weeks of years.) - This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total), beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. - Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel's 70 sevens.
- With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves one seven-year period to be fulfilled in terms of Daniel 9:24: “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” -This final seven-year period is known as the tribulation period—it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for its sin.
- Daniel 9:27 gives a few highlights of the seven-year tribulation period: “He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'
- In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” The person of whom this verse speaks is the person Jesus calls the “abomination that causes desolation” (Matthew 24:15) and is called “the beast” in Revelation 13.
- Daniel 9:27 says that the beast will make a covenant for seven years, but in the middle of this week (3 1/2 years into the tribulation), he will break the covenant, putting a stop to sacrifice. Revelation 13 explains that the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years.
- Since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5 says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or seven years. Also see Daniel 7:25, where the “time, times, and half a time” (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refers to “great tribulation,” the last half of the seven-year tribulation period when the beast will be in power.
For further references about the tribulation, see Revelation 11:2-3, which speaks of 1260 days and 42 months, and Daniel 12:11-12, which speaks of 1290 days and 1335 days. These days have a reference to the midpoint of the tribulation. The additional days in Daniel 12 may include the time at the end for the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and time for the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).
In summary, the Tribulation is the 7-year time period in the end times in which humanity's decadence and depravity will reach its fullness, with God judging accordingly."
Again, this is not my insight, but a clear summary from Gotquestions.org. Here's the link for the whole article. www.gotquestions.org/tribulation.html
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2018 3:46:26 GMT -6
Just want to add one more personal insight after thinking about several threads and posts, upcoming theories, insights, whatsoever...
Maybe you say this is nothing new for me, it has been said before and I am still aware of this, but nevertheless I just felt I should post this simple thought.
There are a lot of endtime "models", teachings of timelines, teachings concerning spiritual meanings and even more.
My experience is, that models only cover one or maybe several parts of the reality, but not the whole package.
This is also true for parables, even the parables we find in scripture.
To get a better view of the whole thing, it is often helpful to change the perspective where you see things from.
Every model may contribute a bit to the whole, but no theory or teaching covers all aspects.
In the scientific realm there is the saying of the Theory of Everything. This has not yet been achieved and I doubt it ever would...
Another example is the beauty of lets say a colorful sunset.
Of course you can measure the wavelengths of the sun at your location, but does this exhaustively describe this event?
It covers only a very limited aspect of what we call sunset.
There is so much more to this, like the form of the clouds, the noise of the whispering sea or the trees, and and and....
I hope you see the point?
To be a bit more specific:
some people are focused on Israel, others are focused on a great awakening or the appearance of the AC.
Or the mark of the beast. Or maybe the priesthood with some aspects. Or or or ....
As limited humans we can never grasp all aspects of this in its entirety.
Man can only consider lets say a handful things (they say about 5-7) at the same time.
I think, most scriptural based theories and insights have some truth in it and are worth being considered.
But not every teaching is for everyone.
Let God and his Word guide you what is for you and what helps you on your way through these increasingly troubled times.
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Post by kjs on Jan 18, 2018 14:40:18 GMT -6
As stephan: already pointed out; there is MANY, versions / theories floating around today and part of those versions and theories look at various passages and put their own spin on them.
Now barbiosheepgirl: raised the issue regarding the fulfillment of Daniel's 70 weeks....
Some feel only 69 weeks have been fulfilled and some say no all 70 have been fulfilled ....
One of the keys to this dilemma is see if Jesus made any comments upon this matter.....
In Matthew 24 (starting in 15) Jesus says 15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),..."
So at this part of Jesus' ministry (around 3/4 done) -- Jesus proclaims that the "abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel" is going to be a future event....
If the "future" event spoken here by Jesus is the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 -- is the big Daniel event -- then one must align the destruction of the "Prince" (who caused destruction of Jerusalem) within the Daniel prophecy (which no one has been able to do as of yet) -- so that tends to suggest both of these events must be future events.
There still is NO temple in Jerusalem and until there is ... this Daniel Prophecy still cannot occur (like it could not occur for the previous 2K years)
The way the original prophecy is worded, the Messiah must be "cut off" (put to death)within the 69th week -- with the abomination of desolation occurring within the 70th week.
Based of everything I have read so far -- the 70th week is a future event -- because 1) Jesus said it was future in His Time and 2) after 70AD there has not been a temple around .....
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 19, 2018 5:59:29 GMT -6
Barb, another explanation that came to mind is that the items in the second woe are as you said, layered. Thus, the overlapping parts would be: Rev. 9:13-21, a great war Rev. 10:1-11, a church gathering Rev. 11:1-14, the temple and the two witnesses All three beginning at the same time in the second woe. I do not understand why the temple structure must be built in the first 3.5 years. I mean, can't these three overlapping parts occur in the second 3.5 years? The reason that I say this is that the rapture has taken place in the first woe, before all this bad stuff in the second woe begins. Why does the rapture and the temple need to take place in the same time frame if the woes show the rapture in the first woe and the temple in the second. They are in two separate woes, two separate periods of time. Hello boraddict, I don't see how or where you get that all these must happen at the same time. ?? In your post, the second verse above " Rev 10:1-11 - a church gathering" are you meaning the Harpazo. ?? Obviously, for those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture/ harpazo, the rapture happens before the tribulation, but nothing that says the great war [Gog of Magog] will start before the rapture - like a trigger]. Though I certainly see how this could work. ;-)
I think it was kjs, who pointed out, but there could also be a gap between the rapture/harpazo and the treaty/ start of the tribulation. It could be a few days, or it could be months. I think the time between the rapture and the Gog of Magog war will be very short - World leaders will be dealing with mass chaos, panic, rioting, and people demanding answers. They will realize quickly that the US is incapacitated. Tens of thousands of soldiers, officers, law enforcement gone.
Another widely held view is that the Rapture is itself - THE BIG TRIGGER - the thing that lights the fuse and pushes the first domino in the entire chain. - Plenty of reasons why this could start WW III, and this scenario is held by J D Farag and others. The reason the temple has to be built in the first half, is because scripture is explicitly clear that the abomination of desolation happens at the mid-point. There has to be a physical temple - or at the very least - sacrifices happening, and the 'holy place'. When the Anti-Christ defiles the temple and commits the abomination of desolation, then the Jews' eyes are opened and they realize they were deceived. The two witnesses are also teaching/ preaching in this first period, in Jerusalem.
We are seeing this week, increased activity on the Temple mount - tons of converging signs, and I think based on the passage about the end times being like the days of Noah and Lot, that there will be a warning- for us - for those who are watching the signs. Paul explicitly said that "For us, - the children of the day, that day will NOT surprise us like a thief."
For the world and the majority of Christians whose biggest concern is that their I-phone doesn't sync with their tablet, or who's playing in the superbowl, they will be surprised.
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Post by witness1 on Jan 19, 2018 12:14:29 GMT -6
Hello disciple4life! Any ideas what the warning will look like? I keep asking myself why we're watching and wondering if we will have a chance to explain to others what is going on. Watchmen are supposed to sound the call when they see danger... I feel like right now we see something far in the distance but it isn't close enough to sound any warnings. I'm wondering what the warning will look like and whether we can then tell others. It would have to be something obvious in order for others to believe us- something that would be readily understood by true believers once an explanation is given. I feel like not all are called to be watchmen, and I know many faithful brothers and sisters who are busy doing the Lord's work (my husband for example) and not watching to the level that we are. And I don't think they should be watching like we are... a pastor of a church should not step down shepherding to become a watchman- those are different parts of the body. I feel like there is a third group of people out there besides watchmen and the oblivious. |
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 19, 2018 15:15:43 GMT -6
Hello witness1 ,
I have to say, I love this community and my brothers and sisters, I have learned, and still am learning so much. ;-) I feel like I've grown so much, and yet still I think I have more questions than answers.
I don't know if there will be a warning - and if there is - what will it look like?? that's a mystery that I'm searching and studying.
Briefly, there are three things from scripture that I could say are clues, but not explicitly.
1. The passage about how in the last days it will be as in the days of Noah and Lot/ Sodom. Imho - there's something more than just the fact that people are going about their daily lives. They've been doing that since Noah, and they could have used countless cities that were destroyed. These stories have virtually nothing in common - neither were on a feast day, one was global, the other was a specific city, both were sinful, but one was total wickedness of mankind's heart and the other was a list of sins - not only homosexuality, but across the world, the story of Sodom [and even the word in many languages means homosexual acts]. The only thing I can see is that the righteous were warned.
2. The other thing I look to are the words of Paul. 1 Thessalonians 5:3-5 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 3. Jesus and Paul said to watch and be ready, be alert. What is the point of watching, if we don't know what we are watching for - if there are no signs.
I'm still of the opinion that the verse / phrase "no one knows the day or the hour" was a well-known and instantly understood metaphor for Yom Teruah, /Feast of Trumpets, and all his hearers (Jewish audience) instantly understood it. But if we can't know the day or the hour, I think we'll know the season. For a long time I have believed that the rapture will be on a Feast, but in all honesty - I'm considering other options. I don't see how this world can make it to Feast of Trumpets, with all the converging signs and the fulfillment of the Alliance between Iran, Turkey and Russia, and the things happening in the Middle east and now the deal with Jerusalem. I think there is some compelling evidence in scripture that is connected with earthquakes, but it would have to be massive - like nothing we have seen, and trigger massive tsunamis. The latest article by Gary on the main site about the Temple Mount is excellent - and there is a chart on there that is mindnumbing. I'm not into numerology or gematra, or using Strong's numbers to predict prophecy, but these blood moons and earthquake tetrads and the frequency is just way beyond random numbers or coincidence. I think a nuclear or other major world war could be the thing that is a warning, and or a treaty.
I'm watching Israel, Turkey, Jerusalem, the news and scripture and hoping and longing for the soon return. Maranatha,
Disciple4life.
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Post by witness1 on Jan 20, 2018 7:43:28 GMT -6
I’m with you on previously being opposed to Strong’s, gematria, etc, but yes, that chart was mind-numbing as you say. It has made me rethink some things. I though Brandon’s last post of the numbers 7, 17, and 153 was extremely interesting, especially since it was posted before Gary’s article.
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Post by fitz on Jan 20, 2018 9:42:22 GMT -6
I’m with you on previously being opposed to Strong’s, gematria, etc, but yes, that chart was mind-numbing as you say. It has made me rethink some things. I though Brandon’s last post of the numbers 7, 17, and 153 was extremely interesting, especially since it was posted before Gary’s article. Strong's?!?!?! You SHOULD be using Strong's all the time. It gives you the definitions of words in the original Hebrew and Greek. An essential study tool. [EDIT] The Strong's numbers people use is very questionable (voo doo), but the Strong's Concordance itself, used as intended is quite handy. Now Gematria, bible codes, etc. As far as I am concerned, this is purely numerology and speculation that sometimes looks really intriguing. But I would hesistate to put much value on it. IMHO. |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 20, 2018 9:57:12 GMT -6
Right right. I’m not saying we shouldn’t use Strong’s. What I meant by being opposed to Strong’s is that I was opposed to people finding a number somewhere and then using those numbers to get messages from Strong’s without any Bible study to go with it. Kinda like saying “I had a dream and then looked at the clock and it was 3:11 so God is telling me Rev 3:11 will happen on 3/11.” That sort of thing. But yes, Strong’s as a Bible study tool is great.
Having said that though. The 726 from the last blood moon to 9/23 and 726 is “Harpazo” is crazy interesting. So perhaps God does use these numbers to communicate with us, but I’m just feeling cautious to keep the Bible as His primary means of communication.
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Post by boraddict on Jan 20, 2018 20:53:25 GMT -6
Barb, another explanation that came to mind is that the items in the second woe are as you said, layered. Thus, the overlapping parts would be: Rev. 9:13-21, a great war Rev. 10:1-11, a church gathering Rev. 11:1-14, the temple and the two witnesses All three beginning at the same time in the second woe. I do not understand why the temple structure must be built in the first 3.5 years. I mean, can't these three overlapping parts occur in the second 3.5 years? The reason that I say this is that the rapture has taken place in the first woe, before all this bad stuff in the second woe begins. Why does the rapture and the temple need to take place in the same time frame if the woes show the rapture in the first woe and the temple in the second. They are in two separate woes, two separate periods of time. Hello boraddict , I don't see how or where you get that all these must happen at the same time. ?? In your post, the second verse above " Rev 10:1-11 - a church gathering" are you meaning the Harpazo. ?? Obviously, for those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture/ harpazo, the rapture happens before the tribulation, but nothing that says the great war [Gog of Magog] will start before the rapture - like a trigger]. Though I certainly see how this could work. ;-)
I think it was kjs , who pointed out, but there could also be a gap between the rapture/harpazo and the treaty/ start of the tribulation. It could be a few days, or it could be months. I think the time between the rapture and the Gog of Magog war will be very short - World leaders will be dealing with mass chaos, panic, rioting, and people demanding answers. They will realize quickly that the US is incapacitated. Tens of thousands of soldiers, officers, law enforcement gone.
Another widely held view is that the Rapture is itself - THE BIG TRIGGER - the thing that lights the fuse and pushes the first domino in the entire chain. - Plenty of reasons why this could start WW III, and this scenario is held by J D Farag and others. The reason the temple has to be built in the first half, is because scripture is explicitly clear that the abomination of desolation happens at the mid-point. There has to be a physical temple - or at the very least - sacrifices happening, and the 'holy place'. When the Anti-Christ defiles the temple and commits the abomination of desolation, then the Jews' eyes are opened and they realize they were deceived. The two witnesses are also teaching/ preaching in this first period, in Jerusalem.
We are seeing this week, increased activity on the Temple mount - tons of converging signs, and I think based on the passage about the end times being like the days of Noah and Lot, that there will be a warning- for us - for those who are watching the signs. Paul explicitly said that "For us, - the children of the day, that day will NOT surprise us like a thief."
For the world and the majority of Christians whose biggest concern is that their I-phone doesn't sync with their tablet, or who's playing in the superbowl, they will be surprised.
Hi D4L, when I stated that those items happen at the same time I should have said they happen in the second woe. I am still trying to understand how long the first woe is. There are two references to a five month period (vv. 9:5, 10). So it may be the case that the first woe is only 5 months long. The church gathering is not the Harpazo. The reason is that Verse 9:4 shows the 144,000 are sealed. Since the 144,000 are sealed in Chapter 7, then they were enraptured prior to Verse 7:5. Thus, the order of events would be the Harpazo in the first woe but prior to Verse 9:4. Then the three events of the second woe in which the marriage it the church gathering Verses 10:1-11. Perhaps in the following order: Harpazo, prior to Verse 7:1 corresponding to the first woe at Verse 9:1 or before. Sealing, Verses 7:3-8 that must occur prior to Verse 9:4. This is also in the first woe. Marriage, Verses 7:9-17 that corresponds to Verses 10:1-11. This is in the second woe. This may occur at the same time as the other two second woe events. It seems to show that a space of five months exists between the Rapture and the marriage ceremony as referenced in Verses 9:1-11 and 19:1-10. There are any number of scenarios as to how this 5 months could apply. But one thing appears to be correct that it applies to the first woe; after the 144,000 have been sealed but before the church gathering in the second woe. |
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 21, 2018 9:53:09 GMT -6
Hello boraddict , I don't see how or where you get that all these must happen at the same time. ?? In your post, the second verse above " Rev 10:1-11 - a church gathering" are you meaning the Harpazo. ?? Obviously, for those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture/ harpazo, the rapture happens before the tribulation, but nothing that says the great war [Gog of Magog] will start before the rapture - like a trigger]. Though I certainly see how this could work. ;-)
I think it was kjs , who pointed out, but there could also be a gap between the rapture/harpazo and the treaty/ start of the tribulation. It could be a few days, or it could be months. I think the time between the rapture and the Gog of Magog war will be very short - World leaders will be dealing with mass chaos, panic, rioting, and people demanding answers. They will realize quickly that the US is incapacitated. Tens of thousands of soldiers, officers, law enforcement gone.
Another widely held view is that the Rapture is itself - THE BIG TRIGGER - the thing that lights the fuse and pushes the first domino in the entire chain. - Plenty of reasons why this could start WW III, and this scenario is held by J D Farag and others. The reason the temple has to be built in the first half, is because scripture is explicitly clear that the abomination of desolation happens at the mid-point. There has to be a physical temple - or at the very least - sacrifices happening, and the 'holy place'. When the Anti-Christ defiles the temple and commits the abomination of desolation, then the Jews' eyes are opened and they realize they were deceived. The two witnesses are also teaching/ preaching in this first period, in Jerusalem.
We are seeing this week, increased activity on the Temple mount - tons of converging signs, and I think based on the passage about the end times being like the days of Noah and Lot, that there will be a warning- for us - for those who are watching the signs. Paul explicitly said that "For us, - the children of the day, that day will NOT surprise us like a thief."
For the world and the majority of Christians whose biggest concern is that their I-phone doesn't sync with their tablet, or who's playing in the superbowl, they will be surprised.
Hi D4L, when I stated that those items happen at the same time I should have said they happen in the second woe. I am still trying to understand how long the first woe is. There are two references to a five month period (vv. 9:5, 10). So it may be the case that the first woe is only 5 months long. The church gathering is not the Harpazo. The reason is that Verse 9:4 shows the 144,000 are sealed. Since the 144,000 are sealed in Chapter 7, then they were enraptured prior to Verse 7:5. Thus, the order of events would be the Harpazo in the first woe but prior to Verse 9:4. Then the three events of the second woe in which the marriage it the church gathering Verses 10:1-11. Perhaps in the following order: Harpazo, prior to Verse 7:1 corresponding to the first woe at Verse 9:1 or before. Sealing, Verses 7:3-8 that must occur prior to Verse 9:4. This is also in the first woe. Marriage, Verses 7:9-17 that corresponds to Verses 10:1-11. This is in the second woe. This may occur at the same time as the other two second woe events. It seems to show that a space of five months exists between the Rapture and the marriage ceremony as referenced in Verses 9:1-11 and 19:1-10. There are any number of scenarios as to how this 5 months could apply. But one thing appears to be correct that it applies to the first woe; after the 144,000 have been sealed but before the church gathering in the second woe. Hello boraddict, I don't understand where or how you see several things. ;-) Please don't hear me saying you're wrong, or even that this couldn't be, and I also agree 100% that Revelation is not written in a straight chronological order, but not sure what IS the correct order. There are multiple theories about the order. [*That could be a very cool thread] Maybe it's a case that our translations are very very different.
I know that computers are a terrible way of sharing, we lose tone, facial expressions and so much. I'm trying to ask and understand with everyone. Boraddict - "The church gathering is not the Harpazo. The reason is that Verse 9:4 shows the 144,000 are sealed. Since the 144,000 are sealed in Chapter 7, then they were enraptured prior to Verse 7:5. Thus, the order of events would be the Harpazo in the first woe but prior to Verse 9:4. Then the three events of the second woe in which the marriage it the church gathering Verses 10:1-11. Perhaps in the following order: . . ."
One issue or better to say question is I'm not sure which "church gathering" you mean. Are you referring to an assembly, in that sense of gathering? What's commonly referred to as the 'rapture' the most explicitly clear passage in scripture is I Thes 4 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (NASB)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. This is Harpazo in Greek, -which of course you know, and the Latin is Rapturo. The other mention of harpazo is in Revelation 12:5 and thus, the connection that the September alignment, [also called by many the Rev 12 sign] was pointing to the Harpazo /rapture.
The 144,000 Jews are sealed, but are not raptured. They are the Tribulation Jews - Rev 7:1-3 Four angels sent to unleash harm/judgement on earth for the time of Jacob's Trouble - Jews who have not accepted the Messiah, and Gentile non-Christians. [Sixth seal] which starts a few verses before Rev 6:12. - This is the sun turning black and the moon to blood, and massive earthquakes, and in this section/passage, the angel is pouring out harm, and we see these 144,000 Tribulation Jews protected/ sealed. v 3 "Saying do not harm the earth of the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads." This is explicitly clear that 1. It's during the Tribulation, and 2, It's explicitly clear that this is happening on earth. [Sixth seal] and 3 the 144,000 Jews are part of this, but protected.
Then, just after the list of Jewish tribes, we see a totally different scenario with a huge group of Gentiles, Rev 7:9-17 -- this is all occurring in heaven around the throne. This is the passage you list above as a marriage, but I don't see anything that tells us this is a marriage, or anything about the marriage supper of the lamb. ?? Is this the church gathering you mention above ? Where or why do you see that the 144,000 Jews are raptured. ?? I'm not trying to be combative - I'm just asking for clarification. I've never even heard anyone share this opinion, [not that we determine truth by how many people believe it ;-) ]
Maranatha. ;-)
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Post by witness1 on Feb 7, 2018 11:40:07 GMT -6
It has been a topic on another thread under the Kingdom of GodThis could really be a key element to get correct if we are to understand the Great Tribulation. I did a google search to start and I am not going to make you go to the links, but bring some of the material here to this forum. I might bring in from other websites, and may even bring in what was talked about in other threads here at Unsealed.. So to start, this is what I came across at this website and I am pulling text from this website: 70thweekofdaniel.comUnderstanding the seven years of the 70th week of Daniel is very important, because of the truth about their fulfillment, and the deceptions which are based on them. The truth is that the 70th week of Daniel started when Messiah was baptized at age 30, and anointed by the Spirit.
Messiah’s ministry took place during the first half of the 7 years; so it’s not possible that it is yet future. The truth is that the covenant of Daniel 9:27 is not just a 7-year covenant, as we’ve been led to believe. It is the everlasting covenant, the same one that Abraham was saved by, as he believed by faith that the Father would provide a Lamb to atone for his sins.
The truth is that Messiah and His Disciples fulfilled the 70th week of Daniel, from 27-34 A.D., when they confirmed with the Jews for 7 years that He is the promised Messiah, who ratified the everlasting covenant with His blood as the Passover Lamb. Messiah confirmed that He was the promised Messiah through His miracles, His wisdom, His knowledge of the Hebrew letters, His fulfillment of prophecy, and by His resurrection. After Messiah’s ascension, the Apostles continued to confirm to the Jews that He is the promised Messiah, by proclaiming how He fulfilled prophecy and how He rose again. On Pentecost, 3,000 Jews were saved from the witness of the Apostles being filled with the Spirit, and preaching the Gospel in their languages. The Church of Messiah is built on a foundation of Jews, who accepted Messiah as their Savior. Paul proclaimed Jew first, and so it was. The seven years ended when the Jewish leaders stoned the Apostle Stephen to death, when he proclaimed that they had killed their promised Messiah.So this is the start. I am doing this for my own understanding. So many books written so many interpretations come about, so much info on the web...and then we have our Bibles..but we have become so dependent on one person's teaching over another when it comes to End Times, sometimes I wonder who really is speaking the truth? What if half of the week has been fulfilled? The idea that the full week has been fulfilled is based on Jesus AND HIS DISCIPLES fulfilling the entire thing. Jesus for the first 3.5 years and then the disciples and the stoning of Stephen for the second 3.5 years. Saying that the 7 years of Jacob's Trouble ended with the stoning of Stephen does not make sense to me, since we know Israel still has a significant amount of trouble ahead of her. So it seems that the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" cannot be over. I also have a hard time saying the acts of Stephen and the apostles, as amazing as they were, was the fulfillment of the second half of the week. Not that these acts did not give God immense glory and begin the spread of the Gospel, but I feel like the fulfilling of something as grand as the 70 weeks needs to be a little bigger than that. It needs to be on a national level. The entire nation needs trouble, unfortunately  , in order to become the kingdom of priests God intended them to be. Because the purpose of the 70 weeks is to save Israel. Israel has not been saved, so I don't think the 70 weeks can be over. BUT we also cannot ignore that Jesus ended physical sacrifice and offering once and for all and that this should be accounted for. We cannot say all 7 years have been fulfilled, nor can we say that none of it has been fulfilled. I do think we can say that HALF of it has been fulfilled though! I think the grand pause or grand parenthesis of the last 2000 years occurs in the middle of the week and not at the beginning as we have been taught. We are the body of Christ... the center lampstand. The head was cut off in the middle of the week, and the body will be cut off in the middle of the week 2000 years later. But our sacrifice and offering that will be cut off is our daily prayers: "And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD,to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant— these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;for my house shall be called a house of prayer
for all peoples.” Isaiah 56:6-7 |
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Post by Natalie on Feb 7, 2018 12:50:04 GMT -6
Let's go back and look at the verses in Daniel 9
(This is NKJV)
And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering...
How are you understanding it? To me, the Messiah is killed after 62 weeks, then the city and temple are destroyed (in a flood of war and violence), then a covenant of a week is made. To get another interpretation, things have to be rearranged don't they?
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Post by witness1 on Feb 7, 2018 19:06:32 GMT -6
Thank you for the question. This is possibly the most difficult passage in the entire Bible, and I'm still wrapping my head around it. The picture is fuzzy right now and I'm still praying and asking God to make it clearer, if in fact it's true that we should read it differently than we have been. Here's where I am now: 1) The article on the Daniel Matson website about "Who is the he?" was quite convincing. 2) I only see 3.5 years in Revelation 12 unless we assume there is a gap in there that is not mentioned or that it only covers the first half. 3) Daniel 12, which the headline in my Bible calls "The time in the end", only mentions 1290 and then 1335 days. I see no reason to add this to another 1260 day count. 4) The world events right now don't seem to be lining up with what we expected in the traditional model. 5) I don't think the Jews need a peace treaty with the AC to build a temple. They have guys that breathe out fire on their enemies. They can easily push the Palestinians off their land. 6) At the end of His ministry, Jesus called the temple "your house" and not "my house or "my Father's house". If Jesus did not call it the temple of God, I feel like Paul and John would not call it that either. They were both brilliant scholars and would not have been careless with their words. Jesus made an entire theological argument out of the statement "I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" to prove a bodily resurrection from the dead to the Sadducees. Small words matter. 7) Changes in dispensation were always marked by covenants (possibly my strongest argument). 8) Ezekiel 16... God passed over Israel once at the time of her birth (16:6), and the second time He passes over her it is in a marriage covenant (16:8). From there, it goes on to show her whoredom and that she commits an abomination, so the Lord allows everyone to gather against her and she is given over into their hands. Yet the Lord will remember His covenant with her and will atone for her. I admit it is possible that this has been completely fulfilled, but it is also possible that there is a second fulfillment of this in that Israel's (re)birth was in 1948 and this marriage covenant will come soon and then the end of Ezekiel 16 is the Zechariah 14 war. 9) "Cut off" means "put to death" according to my Jewish friend. He grew up in Israel and fought in the Yom Kippur war... an Israeli through and through. He came over with his Hebrew Bible and read Daniel 9:27 to me in Hebrew and gave me his notes from the lessons he taught on this subject. I have not confirmed his meaning of the word, but it was a special experience for me either way  10) I believe the true end time model will combine ideas and theology from all camps. Dispensationalists get some of it right and Covenant theologians get some of it right. I think part of the Lord making us one bride is that no one has had it all figured out and that we all need to listen to each other and look at the theological arguments from the other side. I have seen some ugly things on both sides... Dispensationalists calling the other side false prophets or mockers and scoffers; the covenant guys mocked the Rev 12 sign and refused to listen to what we had to say about it. I think the events that will take place in the coming weeks or months will unite all of us together. Things were so tense between my pastor and me in the fall... I hated to think that we would be presented to the Lord in such a state of broken fellowship. My personal feeling is that the church will come together against evil instead of against each other before all is said and done. In order for that to happen, I think both sides of the table will be surprised by the way things unfold and will have to reconcile our differences. I think somehow our theology will come together. So... I pray that one day I will understand Daniel 9:27 correctly and be able to articulate it clearly. Since this verse is the verse that causes so much division in the theological camps, it must be the key to the truth, and all I know right now is that there is a good reason to believe the "he" is the Messiah and not the antichrist. I have to substitute for our homeschool co-op tomorrow and also am beginning a new Bible study for our college ministry girls tomorrow night, so unfortunately I can't dig into this like I would like. So for now it is in my prayers and will let you know if I receive any understanding. |
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, in order to become the kingdom of priests God intended them to be. Because the purpose of the 70 weeks is to save Israel. Israel has not been saved, so I don't think the 70 weeks can be over. BUT we also cannot ignore that Jesus ended physical sacrifice and offering once and for all and that this should be accounted for. We cannot say all 7 years have been fulfilled, nor can we say that none of it has been fulfilled. I do think we can say that HALF of it has been fulfilled though!