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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jan 7, 2018 17:14:23 GMT -6
It has been a topic on another thread under the Kingdom of GodThis could really be a key element to get correct if we are to understand the Great Tribulation. I did a google search to start and I am not going to make you go to the links, but bring some of the material here to this forum. I might bring in from other websites, and may even bring in what was talked about in other threads here at Unsealed.. So to start, this is what I came across at this website and I am pulling text from this website: 70thweekofdaniel.comUnderstanding the seven years of the 70th week of Daniel is very important, because of the truth about their fulfillment, and the deceptions which are based on them. The truth is that the 70th week of Daniel started when Messiah was baptized at age 30, and anointed by the Spirit.
Messiah’s ministry took place during the first half of the 7 years; so it’s not possible that it is yet future. The truth is that the covenant of Daniel 9:27 is not just a 7-year covenant, as we’ve been led to believe. It is the everlasting covenant, the same one that Abraham was saved by, as he believed by faith that the Father would provide a Lamb to atone for his sins.
The truth is that Messiah and His Disciples fulfilled the 70th week of Daniel, from 27-34 A.D., when they confirmed with the Jews for 7 years that He is the promised Messiah, who ratified the everlasting covenant with His blood as the Passover Lamb. Messiah confirmed that He was the promised Messiah through His miracles, His wisdom, His knowledge of the Hebrew letters, His fulfillment of prophecy, and by His resurrection. After Messiah’s ascension, the Apostles continued to confirm to the Jews that He is the promised Messiah, by proclaiming how He fulfilled prophecy and how He rose again. On Pentecost, 3,000 Jews were saved from the witness of the Apostles being filled with the Spirit, and preaching the Gospel in their languages. The Church of Messiah is built on a foundation of Jews, who accepted Messiah as their Savior. Paul proclaimed Jew first, and so it was. The seven years ended when the Jewish leaders stoned the Apostle Stephen to death, when he proclaimed that they had killed their promised Messiah.So this is the start. I am doing this for my own understanding. So many books written so many interpretations come about, so much info on the web...and then we have our Bibles..but we have become so dependent on one person's teaching over another when it comes to End Times, sometimes I wonder who really is speaking the truth? |
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Post by Natalie on Jan 7, 2018 17:42:06 GMT -6
So, here are my thoughts ...
I do understand the interpretation that the Crucifixion in the middle of a seven year period would put an end to the need for sacrifice and offering. But Daniel reads, "And after 62 weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself" (NKJV), then the destruction of the city and sanctuary is mentioned, and then it talks about a confirmation of a covenant for one week with sacrifices being brought to an end.
So, the Messiah would have been cut off before the 70th week, not in the middle. Right?
And if we take it in order, the Messiah is cut off, the Temple destroyed (70 AD) and then a covenant is confirmed (made, enforced, whatever) with sacrifices ending 3.5 years after that.
If we don't have to take it in order, then yes, the 70th week could have been fulfilled before 70 AD.
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Post by witness1 on Jan 7, 2018 20:26:26 GMT -6
This discussion is out of my league at the moment, but I do want to say that we have not merely been led astray by one person’s teaching. Covenant theology vs dispensational theology has been the topic of discussion of the greatest thinkers and authors for a long time. Both sides are presented in seminaries, and there are faithful, godly men in both camps. Both sides can be backed by scripture. Both have validity, but both can’t be right. I say this is out of my league because it feels to me like we’re jumping in the middle of this argument without a systematic understanding of each side. There are deep threads to each side that must be understood in order to reach a conclusion about the 70th week. I’m not yet willing to part with dispensational theology and a pre-trib rapture though. I don’t see any other view explaining the passages in Romans about God provoking the Jews to jealousy. It seems clear to me that God has distinct plans for Israel and the church but will unite them as one bride in the end. Paul quotes Deuteronomy and Hosea, and he also quotes Hosea when talking about the rapture.
Deuteronomy 32:21: “They have made Me jealous with what is not God; they have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.”
If we depart from dispensational theology, how do we account for passages like these? Dispensationalists would say we are a holy nation and Israel will be provoked to jealousy by God taking the bride who is not His beloved first... 7 years earlier like Jacob did.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jan 8, 2018 10:32:08 GMT -6
No worries, witness1, this whole discussion is out of my league too, but I am determined to find peace with it.
Frankly, I have never been at peace with how this 7 year trib fits in when I start to think one basic common sense idea: Jesus performed all those miracles and signs to a watchful attentive, genetically known Israel/Judah.. Why after 2000 years would they all come to Christ within a 7 year period? Why is our modern day Jew expected to receive Christ when non-believers that are non-Jew are also refusing to believe? Arent we all the same people by mind and heart and spirit? Didnt Jesus come to save the WHOLE world? Please dont take this the wrong way I am not anti-Jew, just not coming to peace with an idea that gigantic physical destruction of earth and peoples will turn one TO God. They SAW miracles then in 30AD with their own eyes yet they still killed Him. Modern technology today could still make it seem that any appearing of Christ is "made up"..
Let me add here that one of the things that becomes a big distraction for me and I am confessing this, is relying on commentary to interpret Scripture for me. I have had this mindset way prior to SK's recent threads. In fact, this determination of mine is why I came to Unsealed. I was getting first hand others' understandings of Scripture. The ones that always kept my attention were those who did not link me to their websites or tell me to look at a third party's opinion as backing of a truth.
I know we all glean insight from others' help. And even here I copied from another website. But I am only referencing the website as a source. In copying and pasting a portion of what was written over there at 70 weeks of Daniel web page, I was bringing up the Verses. I did not want to claim that work as solely on my own and I did not want to copy from SK's posts. My intent is that I am seeing that there is truth to that 70th week being fulfilled in Jesus' 1st walk on earth.
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Post by Natalie on Jan 8, 2018 11:42:51 GMT -6
Read Ezekiel 39:21-29 and see what you think (Ezekiel 37 is along the same lines but a longer passage)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2018 15:30:26 GMT -6
Good thread barbiosheepgirl. You know my reasons for believing that the 70 weeks are fulfilled at one level. I won't repeat it here, but didn't want to ignore your thread either. |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 8, 2018 15:37:46 GMT -6
I've had some of the same thoughts barbiosheepgirl... that I am not going to listen to anyone's interpretation and just read things for myself. The problem there is that scripture is so wide and so deep that my part time study is not enough. For example, if I just read Revelation, I may think I have it all figured out. But when you realize Revelation links back to countless OT scriptures, a different picture is painted. I definitely don't think we should blindly believe what someone teaches us, but neither does it make sense to me to totally throw out the leg work of some faithful, brilliant men who have gone before us. This is certainly all tricky and I am thankful we have each other while we seek to discern these things! As far as the Jews not believing Jesus' miracles and then believing in the end, I would encourage you to deeply study Romans. I did it about 6 years ago over several months with a group of women... it's not an easy book! Careful study is in order to see what it is and is not saying. Romans 11 is the main passage... Paul spells out the relationship between the Jews and the Gentiles and we are confronted with passages like these: "So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous." Romans 11:11 "Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." Rom 11:25 "For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy." Rom 11:30-31 Paul thoroughly explains how God allowed Israel to not believe in order that salvation may come to the Gentiles. And then the mercy shown to the Gentiles (because of the Jews' disobedience) will result in mercy for the Jews. "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!" (Romans 11:33) This is connected with God provoking Israel to jealousy. Paul says this is a mystery... something that needs to be studied carefully in order to be understood properly, but it's a beautiful picture when you see it. He also tells us not to be arrogant toward Israel... they are the root and we have the privilege of being grafted in. And these natural branches will be grafted back into their own tree. (Romans 11:17-24) |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2018 16:55:42 GMT -6
Has anyone ever thought about the early Christians trying to talk to their fellow Jews about how the scriptures pointed to Jesus. They likely heard quite often, "Well, you know, many dedicated, godly, and well schooled Rabbi's claim that those scriptures are being misinterpreted by you. They weren't talking about Jesus, they were talking about Israel, etc. They say blah blah blah.... . shouldn't we listen to them?"
And, of course, the majority of Jews did listen to the the spiritual leaders of the day - to their own destruction. It is time to come out, people. And time is getting short. Which Jesus will you serve?
As witness1 says, it is tricky to know who to listen to - but that is why I emphasis that we, as individuals, need to learn to hear and discern God. We must learn to hear His voice. Majority means nothing. Brilliance means nothing. Devotion means nothing. Schooling means nothing. Church position means nothing. Not when it comes to properly interpreting scripture and other ways the Lord speaks to us. We can learn from others, brilliant or not, aged or young, schooled or ignorant, but only as we hear the voice of God in them.
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Post by grandpaskitzo on Jan 8, 2018 17:12:15 GMT -6
Amen SilentKnight!!
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Post by witness1 on Jan 8, 2018 17:41:56 GMT -6
i agree @silentknight! What makes this extra hard is that we often feel we are hearing God tell us something different that what a brother or sister is hearing. And my deceitfully wicked heart gets in the way of my hearing too. I continue seeking and continue praying for ears to hear, but at the end of it all I fall on grace and trust that God will make the truth plainly clear when He is ready.
One thought here... I see your analogy that the Jews missed the truth because they were listening to the spiritual leaders of their day. But the Bible clearly teaches that God allowed and even planned for this hardening to occur so that the fullness of the Gentiles may come in. I can't think of any scripture though that says we will be/are similarly blinded. I see the opposite... that we are children of light and children of day. I see that we have the full revelation of God's plan of redemption, even if what He chooses to do at the end of the age is a little fuzzy. The issues we are discussing here are tertiary whereas the Jews' issue of rejecting the Messiah was primary. When you say, "time is short, which Jesus will you serve?" Could you explain that a bit more? I think we can all serve the same Jesus and fall in different theological camps of tertiary issues!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2018 19:50:52 GMT -6
i agree @silentknight ! What makes this extra hard is that we often feel we are hearing God tell us something different that what a brother or sister is hearing. And my deceitfully wicked heart gets in the way of my hearing too. I continue seeking and continue praying for ears to hear, but at the end of it all I fall on grace and trust that God will make the truth plainly clear when He is ready. One thought here... I see your analogy that the Jews missed the truth because they were listening to the spiritual leaders of their day. But the Bible clearly teaches that God allowed and even planned for this hardening to occur so that the fullness of the Gentiles may come in. I can't think of any scripture though that says we will be/are similarly blinded. I see the opposite... that we are children of light and children of day. I see that we have the full revelation of God's plan of redemption, even if what He chooses to do at the end of the age is a little fuzzy. The issues we are discussing here are tertiary whereas the Jews' issue of rejecting the Messiah was primary. When you say, "time is short, which Jesus will you serve?" Could you explain that a bit more? I think we can all serve the same Jesus and fall in different theological camps of tertiary issues! witness1, Perhaps the problem is that what some people consider tertiary, others consider primary. I look around and see a very blind church. But who am I? I could be wrong. |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 8, 2018 22:29:58 GMT -6
I think I may have not been clear when I called something a tertiary issue. By that I don't mean "fringe" or "unimportant", rather I mean it is a third-order doctrine. The Gospel of Jesus is a first-order doctrine. That He came to save us and will one day come again is primary. Things like baptism by immersion or sprinkling I would consider second-order doctrine, and covenant theology vs dispensationalism would be more like third order. This is not to say that it isn't important. Just that it isn't primary like faith in Jesus.
I agree that the church is very blind to many things. We have been in full time ministry for 8 years now, which is only a drop in the bucket compared to others, but it is enough time for me to see a lot about the state of the church. Many are largely ignorant of the scriptures and don't open their Bibles at all during the week or even on Sunday since the scripture is on the screen. Many do not acknowledge God's presence in their day-to-day lives. (Side story: When I was back in the nursery with a baby who didn't want his mama to leave, our children's director told me I just needed to leave him to cry and go to church because I needed to "go to worship." How sad that she doesn't realize that I worship while washing dishes and folding laundry; that being Jesus to a baby and sacrificing my "worship time" for him is a spiritual act of worship which I believe the Lord receives.) Many in our churches do not make spiritual sacrifices for their own children let alone their unsaved neighbor. Many are too busy keeping up with the Kardashians to read things that would stir their affection for Jesus. Many never think to add, "Lord willing" to their plans and acknowledge that it is He who should direct their steps. Many never pray and ask the Lord to use them to seek and save the lost. Many have no clue what is happening in the world right now because they are not longing for Jesus to return and are not watching for Him. They are happy with their lives and their mud pies. American Christianity is comfortable and cheap and sad.
Having said that though, these same people believe they are sinners and that Jesus died for them. In fact, I believe, if it came down to it, they would be killed before they would deny Him. These people go to church every week, take their kids to children's church, fill up their shoeboxes at Christmas, pray before meals, and give money to missionaries. They do what they know to do... they know they should do more and be more yet all they can do is pray, "help my unbelief!" If you want to talk about wheat and barley, they are wheat. They are blind to a lot, but they aren't blind to the way, the truth, and the life. The Jews were though. Our churches may not be barley, but they are not being deceived by the religious leaders of the day.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jan 8, 2018 22:56:28 GMT -6
Ok my brothers and sisters... I so lift witness1 and Sk up in thankful prayer right now because this is one tricky dialog that could lead to ill feelings..I so appreciate you witness1 that you so calmly responded to Sk there. Those just tuning in this is technically a deflection from the main topic of the thread. But it is good to always make sure we understand each other as all we have is typed words with no inflection or sorrow or sighs of concern.
To gather us back on topic to the 70 weeks, I have forgotten this big important question and may help guide me in my reading. Who says the Tribulation is 7 years? Where does that come from? Where is the math? Natalie gave me some homework so I am going to do that, but I have always wondered this calculation. I see many here fitting in a rebult temple, a rise of antichrist and a peace agreement all squished in this 7 year period, not to mention the trumpet and bowl judgements..
Lets just say that all 70 weeks were fulfilled, with the last week being the confirmation via the baptism of Jesus followed by him being cut off (killed) and the end of the 7 years being the death of Stephen / marked by Paul preaching only to Gentiles. 40 years later God destroys the physical temple. If so, then what is the big deal? Please know that I do believe that physical Israel has total relevance to unfulfilled prophecy. I am not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. and, I know because the deciples were asking Jesus about the end.. We are told it will be like the Days of Lot, and none of us are focusing on Bangkok, Thailand, which I hear has quite the per capita rate of prostitutes... we are paying attention to the middle east...
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 9, 2018 7:49:26 GMT -6
Ok my brothers and sisters... I so lift witness1 and Sk up in thankful prayer right now because this is one tricky dialog that could lead to ill feelings..I so appreciate you witness1 that you so calmly responded to Sk there. Those just tuning in this is technically a deflection from the main topic of the thread. But it is good to always make sure we understand each other as all we have is typed words with no inflection or sorrow or sighs of concern. To gather us back on topic to the 70 weeks, I have forgotten this big important question and may help guide me in my reading. Who says the Tribulation is 7 years? Where does that come from? Where is the math? Natalie gave me some homework so I am going to do that, but I have always wondered this calculation. I see many here fitting in a rebult temple, a rise of antichrist and a peace agreement all squished in this 7 year period, not to mention the trumpet and bowl judgements.. Lets just say that all 70 weeks were fulfilled, with the last week being the confirmation via the baptism of Jesus followed by him being cut off (killed) and the end of the 7 years being the death of Stephen / marked by Paul preaching only to Gentiles. 40 years later God destroys the physical temple. If so, then what is the big deal? Please know that I do believe that physical Israel has total relevance to unfulfilled prophecy. I am not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. and, I know because the deciples were asking Jesus about the end.. We are told it will be like the Days of Lot, and none of us are focusing on Bangkok, Thailand, which I hear has quite the per capita rate of prostitutes... we are paying attention to the middle east... Hello Barb, others. ;-)
This is such a great thread - I just can't even begin to tell you how much you all inspire me to learn more. I have learned so much in the last 2 years - and realize how much I don't know. I don't pretend to have any answers or deep insight, but simply hope to share some things that I have gleaned here and from other watchmen - and hope it will encourage you. One huge -light-bulb event [Ah-Ha moment] where I really understood in a totally new and deeper way, was the concept and the teaching by Amir Tsarfati on Gog of Magog, and this coupled with the teaching of Pastor Stephen Cioccolanti, (not sure re spelling) ;-)
I've grown up in church since birth and Bible school and always heard Gog is Russia, but never knew or understood why or why not. I give the Gog of Magog specific example -but the main thing is that multiple passages - particularly end-times passages have dual fulfillment. That is- they are fulfilled in one time, with one meaning, and then may be fulfilled centuries later, in a different way. I've seen people get so worked up and dogmatic - that Gog is Russia, and give absurd reasons, but the most interesting thing is seeing people adamantly insist to the point of anger - that Gog of Magog is after the Tribulation. Amir Tsarfati's sermon was one of the best in my entire life, the Topic is incredible, but really it was this understanding how ** some passages indeed can/and do have dual fulfillment. He clearly laid out how there are two passages in the Bible that talk about Gog of Magog, and that the conditions, results and descriptions of these are totally totally different. How could I not have seen something that was so so obvious !! ?? ? It was only with this new understanding of dual fulfillment and looking at the text, what does it literally say, and "What else- what other passages talk about this, that I was able to see the huge and clear difference between Day of Christ and Day of the Lord. I think - to be honest - that most Christians simply gloss over these as being not only synonymous, but one and the same, - actually they are world's apart.
I can't take credit at all, but it was like I was seeing - hearing God, @silentknight ;-) in a whole new way- with new ears. Every passage that talks about the Day of Christ has strikingly different goals/ results and conditions than the passages that talk about Day of the Lord.
Relating directly to this thread and the question - how do we know it's 7 years. ?? I believe 100% that some of these aspects were fulfilled by Christ. (and other ways) One great example of this was the abomination of desolation that occurred with Epiphanes, who defiled the temple, and this event was directly connected with the feast of "Dedication" which literally in Hebrew is Hannukah, and mentioned only in John, celebrated by Jesus. Just wow. Jesus talking about being the light of the world, during the feast of Dedication/ Hannukah, - the only place Hannukah is mentioned in the Bible. ;-) So - in other words, this event that was prophesied by Daniel hundreds of years before Christ - had a partial fulfillment in /through the desecration of the Temple - sorry I can't remember the exact date - but I think it was 160 AD. About the years - we look "What Other passages" What else does scripture say about this ? Cross referencing.  We have passages in Daniel and Revelation, and in both we have an exact day count of 1260 days. This corresponds exactly to the Ancient calendars used by a dozen people groups, Egyptians/ Babylonians, etc, and is also known as the prophetic calendar of 12, 30 day months. 1260 days = 3 1/2 years. Then, not only do we have this same number in both Daniel and Revelation, but we also have the triple confirmation of 42 months, = 3 1/2 years. - Then, we always interpret unclear passages with the clearer ones - so we have additional passages from Daniel of Time, times and half a time. - By itself, this is not clear - just sounds stupid and meaningless. But when we use the clear passages [42 months and 1260 days] we can see Time - 1 year, Times - 2 years and half a time - 6 months. - And when we cross reference this, we also see the passage that says the Abomination of desolation happens and the sacrifices are cut off mid week. Just some things to think about --
hope you are encouraged.
I don't know the day or hour, and don't believe in setting dates, but I believe we are seeing labor pains. Maranatha.
Disciple4life.
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Post by witness1 on Jan 9, 2018 8:05:46 GMT -6
disciple4life... perhaps we could start a thread on the Day of Christ vs the Day of the Lord? This is something my mom has studied and always told me about, but I haven't studied it myself. Also, I'm looking forward to checking out that video by Amir. I missed that one. Thanks! I apologize for de-railing the topic! Thank you for getting us back on track barbiosheepgirl!
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We have passages in Daniel and Revelation, and in both we have an exact day count of 1260 days. This corresponds exactly to the Ancient calendars used by a dozen people groups, Egyptians/ Babylonians, etc, and is also known as the prophetic calendar of 12, 30 day months. 1260 days = 3 1/2 years.