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Post by whatif on Apr 25, 2017 20:00:47 GMT -6
Good evening! I was doing some investigating regarding the first 2 seals of Revelation 6 and had some questions come to mind that I would like to hear your thoughts about. The passages are from Revelation 6:1-4.
I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest. When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword.
My questions are as follows:
1. I've heard many prophecy scholars suggest the rider of the white horse is the antichrist. Who do you suppose is the rider on the red horse. Could it be Gog of Magog?
2. Why is there a difference in weapons that the 2 riders carry? Both seem to be out for battle, but one carries a bow and one a large sword.
I actually tried to get some information from Strong's Concordance at Bible Hub (biblehub.com/greek/5115.htm) and found the word for bow is "toxon". When I looked up information about that word, I found an interesting article that speaks of poisons. The article describes a lecture given by a Dr. Meymott Tidy:
"Toxicology, he said, is the science of poisons. How comes it to be called toxicology? The Greek word from which it was derived meant a bow, and was used to signify not only the bow but also the arrows used with it. Dioscorides, in the first century, first used the term in connection with poison, which was at that time associated with the art of smearing the arrow heads used in warfare. Thus the meaning of the word tended to enlarge itself, trying, as words do, to keep pace with scientific progress. In that Greek word toxon was to be found not only the derivation but the early history of poisoning."
(Source: "On Poisons," Scientific American, Volume LXIV, Number 22, May 30, 1891, page 340, books.google.com/books?id=PoQ9AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA340&lpg=PA340&dq=meaning+of+greek+word+toxon&source=bl&ots=bl6e8SEOxp&sig=zm9qNziqPKInva7poDSuJb46z5c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGyZOw98DTAhVIjlQKHR7lAms4FBDoAQhQMAk#v=onepage&q=meaning%20of%20greek%20word%20toxon&f=false)
Could it be possible the modern-day equivalent of this bow of the rider on the white horse is some type of chemical weapon?
3. What are your thoughts on the colors of the 2 horses? Do they represent peace/war, hero/villain, Islam/Communism, something else?
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Post by Gary on Apr 26, 2017 8:39:52 GMT -6
Those are interesting questions. I've never really heard a fully satisfactory explanation of the seven seals (the first four of which are the horses). I would probably go with the traditional premillennial interpretation, which says the rider on the white horse is the antichrist, the red horse represents subsequent warfare (probably Gog/Magog), the black horse is the ensuing economic fallout from war and judgment, etc. In other words, their opening begins shortly after the rapture and continues through the Tribulation. The seventh seal then reveals the trumpets. Your find about "toxon" is interesting. Greg found a good article that makes the argument that the first six seals are found in order in the Olivet Discourse. It is a pretty persuasive article: www.nowtheendbegins.com/matthew-24-has-all-6-seals-from-revelation/
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 9:24:22 GMT -6
One connection I heard about the bow comes from Gen 21:20 God was with the lad, and he grew; and he lived in the wilderness and became an archer. Archers use bows. This verse is about Abraham's son Ishmael who became the father of the Arab nations.
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Post by whatif on Apr 26, 2017 10:40:49 GMT -6
Greg found a good article that makes the argument that the first six seals are found in order in the Olivet Discourse. Thank you for sharing the article, Gary! That is quite an interesting discovery!
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Post by BrazenLaver on Apr 26, 2017 10:45:15 GMT -6
Remember our sealed riders have been riding before. In the book of Zechariah except they were pulling chariots... Zechariah 6:1-9 And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass. In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses. Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord? And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth. The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country. And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth. Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country. These Spirits from Heaven rode in relationship to the directions of North, South, East and West. Whats interesting is that most flags of the Middle East countries contain these colors. I suspect they have been riding since the book of revelation was written around 90 AD. If we are not in the fifth seal time period already may God help us. More staggering statistics on Christian persecution 1,600,000 plus – massacred by Ottoman Muslims in Turkey, Armenia in 1820s 120,000 plus – Greek Christians massacred by Turks in Smyrna in one day in 1922 600,000 plus – Sudanese Christians murdered by Islamic government in 1963 1,200,000 – Catholics and ‘underground church’ Christians died in Soviet Union in 1925 200,000 plus – Ukrainian Orthodox in Soviet Ukraine in 1927 100,000 plus – Lithuanian Christians killed by the Nazis, then Soviets from 1940-1980 450,000 plus – Yugoslav and Serbian Orthodox & others by Nazi and Soviets up to 1990s 125,000 plus – Lutheran Confessing Church, Catholics and others by humanist Nazis 1933-1945 200,000 – Christians executed during Korean War and by North Korean Communists 1950-2000 520,000 – Christian Hutus and Tutsi killed each other in Rwanda’s 1994 civil war 300,000 plus – Protestant Evangelicals killed in Colombia’s ‘La Violenza’ civil war 1948-58 Christian current persecution of the Middle East
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Post by whatif on Apr 26, 2017 10:49:40 GMT -6
One connection I heard about the bow comes from Gen 21:20 God was with the lad, and he grew; and he lived in the wilderness and became an archer. Archers use bows. This verse is about Abraham's son Ishmael who became the father of the Arab nations. Fascinating, rickjones427! Could this, then, tie the white horse to Islam? If I remember correctly, Mohammed's horse was white.
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Post by whatif on Apr 26, 2017 11:06:34 GMT -6
BrazenLaver, the data you provided on the persecution of Christians is astounding! I can't imagine just how many souls are under the altar in heaven as described by Revelation 6:9-11.
Also, the information about the flags of the Middle East is quite interesting to me--all 4 colors! Wow!
When the Tetrad Blood Moons occurred recently, I was wondering if perhaps they were signs that the 4 horsemen of Revelation were preparing to ride. I thought it interesting that of all the seals, only 4 were described as horses with riders--perhaps connecting to the Tetrad. After the 1st Blood Moon, I was theorizing that perhaps ISIS would be connected with the white horse, as ISIS suddenly popped up onto the world news shortly after the Blood Moon, and there was much talk about their maps in which they'd planned to reestablish an Islamic caliphate with 10 regions. I'm no longer so sure that theory holds water, though I'm keeping it on the possibilities list in my study notebook. I'm also considering Turkey and the interesting news events from the recent referendum.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 11:11:05 GMT -6
I didn't know that about Mohammed's horse. These puzzle pieces are sure coming together quickly.
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Post by whatif on Apr 26, 2017 11:32:37 GMT -6
I didn't know that about Mohammed's horse. These puzzle pieces are sure coming together quickly. I just did some investigating to find out the name of Mohammed's horse, and I've discovered it was named Al-Buraq. I find it interesting that this horse is described as a type of "heavenly" horse--having wings and the ability to move from earth to heaven. A connection to the type of horses seen by Zechariah and John, perhaps?
Here's a link to the basic Wikipedia article regarding Al-Buraq (Source: "Buraq," Wikipedia, 24 April 2017).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buraq
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 11:41:59 GMT -6
Thank you whatif
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Post by BrazenLaver on Apr 26, 2017 13:14:26 GMT -6
Since the Revelation of Jesus was given to John at Patmos, it is my understanding that the dispensation of the Church has seen these riders going forth, especially from Jerusalem to the land of the middle east. The time is from 100 AD - 2017AD. Out of 1917 years of history since Revelation of Jesus we had nearly 1230 years of non-christian Gentile occupiers of Jerusalem. 638 Fall to Caliph Umar and the recapture of Jerusalem in 1967. May I suggest the White horse of Christianity. Defeated the Roman Empire with out a weapon of war. From Constantine 332AD to Heraclius. 638AD The rise of the Red Sword of Islam. From the Dome of the Rock, to the Great Schism of West and Eastern Christianity. 688AD-1054AD So much war and blood shed. The rise of the Black Rule of Koran(The Dark Ages). From 1054AD-To the fall of Constinople 1453AD. No Writings were allowed except the Koran for Most of the Mediterranean. The Pale Rider of the Ottoman Rule. Islam with its factions of Shia and Sunni up to WWI. (1453 AD-1917 AD) When General Allenby rides into Jerusalem. The Fifth Seal. The last hundred years has seen the most death tolls of humanity from WWI, WWII, And Current WW3 since 911. 120,000 plus – Greek Christians massacred by Turks in Smyrna in one day in 1922 600,000 plus – Sudanese Christians murdered by Islamic government in 1963 1,200,000 – Catholics and ‘underground church’ Christians died in Soviet Union in 1925 200,000 plus – Ukrainian Orthodox in Soviet Ukraine in 1927 100,000 plus – Lithuanian Christians killed by the Nazis, then Soviets from 1940-1980 450,000 plus – Yugoslav and Serbian Orthodox & others by Nazi and Soviets up to 1990s 125,000 plus – Lutheran Confessing Church, Catholics and others by humanist Nazis 1933-1945 200,000 – Christians executed during Korean War and by North Korean Communists 1950-2000 520,000 – Christian Hutus and Tutsi killed each other in Rwanda’s 1994 civil war 300,000 plus – Protestant Evangelicals killed in Colombia’s ‘La Violenza’ civil war 1948-58 Christian current persecution of the Middle East
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Post by whatif on Apr 26, 2017 13:55:17 GMT -6
Wow! Sort of like a great wheel of horses turning slowly over time...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 14:05:06 GMT -6
Very saddening... I didn't know about the atrocities in Sudan or Colombia. I can't imagine how terrible the tribulation will be.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 5:39:36 GMT -6
The Holy Spirit has put upon me to begin the book of Revelation again. There are so many people who try to decipher the timing of the rapture and I find that the reason the book of Revelation is the decider is of the thiught whether you consider the seals to be judgments or not. As rt said , These horses come from the book of Zachariah. Sword, famine, and pestilence are three areas that God has always used to judged Israel. If you do a search on the sword and famine alone, it will come up 40 times. When David tried to give a census, God disciplined David by giving him three choices for the judgment and it was of those three.
The second, Third, fourth seals are the sword, famine and pestilence- clearly judgment for disobedience. So then we go back and look at the first seal. I see the first seal to be deception. It is the very thing that 2 Thessalonians, Matthew 24, and several other verses elude too. "Do not be deceived!" This writer comes out looking very pure and very holy, but in fact he is missing a crown and he goes out to deceive the whole world therefore he conquers many. The people receive/have wars, famines and pestilences because they have been deceived by their pride and they should have known better- The Word came!, their Messiah came!, and they should have seen except for their hardened hearts😔. They have been blinded by the god of this world. And Scripture tells us that satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
I see the seals as God's attempt to get the attention of mankind by free will "with a little pressure". It is loving pressure, for he wishes none would perish. As Rt, showed, there is a physical/natural side to this - and I'm speaking ofthe spiritual side. They do not come in waves. Everyone is a mounting issue. I too believe us to be in the fifth seal. But the effects of the first, second, third, and fourth seal are still going on.
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Post by BrazenLaver on Apr 27, 2017 6:28:35 GMT -6
I too believe us to be in the fifth seal. But the effects of the first, second, third, and fourth seal are still going on. I'm right with you and these spirits are intervening in the battle for the for Jerusalem. They are affecting the outcome of bringing together the 10 Kings of the Beast Empire. The Caliphate is almost complete. Turkey has just given Erogodan Caliph powers and the enemies of Psalm 83 are forming their alliances. Israel's sins are mounting and Jacob's sorrow is not far behind.
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