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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 6:46:06 GMT -6
BrazenLaver, My greatest apologies. I don't know how I got you and RT confused. I like to something he said in another post and somehow transferred it to this one.
I'm agreeing with you, brazenlaver in YOUR work.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 7:05:51 GMT -6
Israel's sins are mounting and Jacob's sorrow is not far behind.
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For those who do not know the difference between 'Israel' and 'Jacob'... they appear biblically to be the same of the Jewish nation however The difference of names references their hearts. Jacob means 'in the natural'( before God is known), Israel means after the change (God is recognized). The Jewish nation will be 'Jacob' until they awake.. then they are true Israel.
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Post by Gary on Apr 27, 2017 10:07:32 GMT -6
Truthseeker, I think you're on to something. Jacob wasn't called Israel until he wrestled with God and it was the night before he had to confront Esau. That night was the night of his greatest trouble. Perhaps that wrestle match is symbolic of the Tribulation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 13:08:37 GMT -6
Gary,
Yes, that is what I keep trying to get people to see - the tribulation is a time that God's 'focus' seems to be on 'the apple of his eye' - Israel. If some Gentile believers get saved - that will be wonderful!! But the 7 final years are a return to them, as promised and get the "Jacob's" during Jacob's trouble to come back to Him. It will be up to them, except for the 144,000. The lingo - 'the wrath of the Lamb has come', these are no secular Gentiles - these people KNOW good and well what this is about.(end of the 6th seal).
I'm seeing that the 'wonderful' and 'extravagant' gift of this time of grace- extended to the Gentile world will close with Jewish and Gentile believers no more divided - jew or greek into one glorious new creation!(Romans 10:12) We are the body of Christ and as the scriptures say of the body "in Him", "in Christ". He will take us up at some point before judgement... because We are IN HIM, and HE has ALREADY BEEN JUDGED - TRUE AND FAITHFUL!!! When he come to judge - which God says he has given Jesus the authority to judge - would He judge himself(?) as He is the 'head' and we are the (His) 'body'(Ephesians 5:23), - or his wife - love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it? (,v. 25)
This is the great mystery of Ephesians 5:32 (We are with Him and in Him). I see in Revelations - a calling to repentance - that's to Israel (and an unbelieving world at most).
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Post by watchmanjim on Apr 27, 2017 16:23:16 GMT -6
Regarding the colors of the 4 horses, and the colors of the moslem nations' flags, Steve Cioccolanti had a video out about that a while ago. He pointed out the same thing.
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Post by watchmanjim on Apr 27, 2017 16:27:30 GMT -6
Regarding Israel--you have to look at Biblical context to determine which Israel is being referenced. Israel, the whole house (13 tribes?) Israel, the modern nation? Israel, the northern ten tribes? Israel the land? Israel the culture? Israel the man, as found in Genesis? Jacob? Ephraim? Samaria? Judea? Judah? Jerusalem? All these terms and concepts are interwoven, but distinctly different.
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Post by BrazenLaver on May 1, 2017 13:12:17 GMT -6
Regarding Israel--you have to look at Biblical context to determine which Israel is being referenced. Israel, the whole house (13 tribes?) Israel, the modern nation? Israel, the northern ten tribes? Israel the land? Israel the culture? Israel the man, as found in Genesis? Jacob? Ephraim? Samaria? Judea? Judah? Jerusalem? All these terms and concepts are interwoven, but distinctly different. I'd rather be spiritual than physical any day.  Galatians 3:7-9 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.  Romans 11:24-26 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 13:15:48 GMT -6
Amen and Amen! Love the pic! I'm going to print it out and take it to every bible study this week!
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Post by watchmanjim on May 1, 2017 13:33:28 GMT -6
Brazenlaver, I take the verses in Galatians that you quoted (3:28-29) to be uniquely applicable to the Church Age (which we are now in, and will very soon end) and not as universal truth. The Romans 11 passage shows that the natural branches (ethnic Israel) shall be grafted back into the olive tree, from which they were plucked.
All the peoples of the earth are blessed by Abraham (Galatians 3:7-9), but that does not make all the peoples of the earth Israelites, and it certainly does not mean that all the promises made to Israel in the Bible automatically apply to gentiles, whether in the church age, an earlier age, or a coming age (ie, the Tribulation, or the Millennium).
Physical Israel is a very real and important entity.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 13:44:28 GMT -6
watchmanjim/ Brazenlaver -
Forgive me for interjecting (?)
I may not have understood - but my discernment is picking up a misconception. I didn't think that was what Brazenlaver was saying. I didn't pick up that he was discriminating. I took it to mean that he felt it better to be a 'believer' on 'this side' of the tribulation start . I didn't pick up any negativity about physical Israel.
If I am out of line - my apologies for interfering.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 13:54:29 GMT -6
Yes I tend to agree with that watchmanjim. Gentiles are grafted into the spiritual tree through Messiah, but we're not Jews. Even in heaven there is ethnic distinction like you can see in Revelation 7 and Revelation 22.
There is also an important distinction in the promised land. A lot of people confuse the extent of the land promised to Abraham with the land promised to Jacob. Abraham was promised most of the middle east from the Nile to the Euphrates, but Israel at its greatest extent in Ezekiel is only a little bigger than Solomon's kingdom.
Somewhere a prophecy says that Egypt and Assyria will be God's people, too... Egypt and Assyria are within the boundaries of Abraham's promised land. The Bible says Abraham is not just the father of Israel, but the father of many nations. It seems to overlap some.
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Post by watchmanjim on May 1, 2017 14:02:10 GMT -6
watchmanjim/ Brazenlaver - Forgive me for interjecting (?) I may not have understood - but my discernment is picking up a misconception. I didn't think that was what Brazenlaver was saying. I didn't pick up that he was discriminating. I took it to mean that he felt it better to be a 'believer' on 'this side' of the tribulation start . I didn't pick up any negativity about physical Israel. If I am out of line - my apologies for interfering. Ah, you could be right, in which case I apologize if I misunderstood. |
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Post by watchmanjim on May 1, 2017 14:41:47 GMT -6
Yes I tend to agree with that watchmanjim. Gentiles are grafted into the spiritual tree through Messiah, but we're not Jews. Even in heaven there is ethnic distinction like you can see in Revelation 7 and Revelation 22. There is also an important distinction in the promised land. A lot of people confuse the extent of the land promised to Abraham with the land promised to Jacob. Abraham was promised most of the middle east from the Nile to the Euphrates, but Israel at its greatest extent in Ezekiel is only a little bigger than Solomon's kingdom. Somewhere a prophecy says that Egypt and Assyria will be God's people, too... Egypt and Assyria are within the boundaries of Abraham's promised land. The Bible says Abraham is not just the father of Israel, but the father of many nations. It seems to overlap some. Yes. Abraham had several physical sons. In addition to Isaac, there was Ishmael, as well as the sons of Keturah. Also, Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau. Esau therefore is also the descendant of Abraham. Gen 25:1 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. Gen 25:2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. So Abraham had 8 sons, total, and they had many offspring. Ishmael himself had 12 sons: Gen 25:13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, Gen 25:14 And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Gen 25:15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah: Gen 25:16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations. |
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