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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 5, 2017 23:26:19 GMT -6
I never heard of the Church of Israelites.... Here nor in Revelation 12....
The Lord is not a groupie and doesn't favor any group or bloodline or parentage. He has no favorites, one brother is accepted (Abel) one is not (Cain). One kills his own brother, right from the start. Its all a matter of CHOICE...never by bloodlines.
No one auotmatically is saved and a saint. Saints choose the Lord and then choose to follow the Lord. Just basic Christianity.. choice choice and more choices...
Jews still put their pants on one leg at a time.
Or you might say, should I trust in my Jewish heritage or in the Messiah who choose to die for me, and whom I choose to accept, love and follow.
Ill take the later...and wont be replacing those that dont know the Lord over those that do know the Lord and have served the Lord and obeyed the Lord.
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 6, 2017 2:09:19 GMT -6
Saying Christians are a subset of anyone is not scripturial..... there are no secondary citizens in heaven, no secondary grafted on branches, inferior to original branches.
The Messiah has not got two different sets of people, only ONE. Thats literal and thats verifiable. This substitution into Christians of non Christians is not Christian. We are ONE, so lets win the other ones so we will ALL be one.
But if you differ, show us where Jews are preferred over Christians, or where they in their disbelief and inexperience can be more useful to the Messiah than us, Christians that have followed the Lord and learned from the Lord.
GAO
David
I shall await your verses and words, so we can continue our discussion.
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Post by Natalie on Dec 6, 2017 9:02:35 GMT -6
I don't think anyone is saying that Jews are preferred over Christians. God created the Jewish people through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants which formed the 12 tribes. Everyone else were called Gentiles. He chose the Jews. The Jews were to show the world what it meant to follow the living God (and they kept messing that up) and then the Messiah came from the tribe of Judah. Christians are grafted in, so that Jews and Gentiles could be united, no longer at war with one another. But the Jews have rejected the Messiah for a time.
(I have got to go school my kids or I'd look up the verses for you--You could read Romans if so interested)
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Post by mike on Dec 6, 2017 10:22:36 GMT -6
David,
I am fairly certain the tribulation hasnt officially begun, however I could be wrong. What I am asking you to answer is how can you interpret Revelation as linear when chapter 12:1-2 happened on 9/23. There is no need for me to provide a timeline for that to be answered. Are you aware of what occurred in the stars on 9/23?
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Post by yardstick on Dec 6, 2017 10:25:23 GMT -6
Saying Christians are a subset of anyone is not scripturial..... there are no secondary citizens in heaven, no secondary grafted on branches, inferior to original branches. The Messiah has not got two different sets of people, only ONE. Thats literal and thats verifiable. This substitution into Christians of non Christians is not Christian. We are ONE, so lets win the other ones so we will ALL be one. But if you differ, show us where Jews are preferred over Christians, or where they in their disbelief and inexperience can be more useful to the Messiah than us, Christians that have followed the Lord and learned from the Lord. GAO David I shall await your verses and words, so we can continue our discussion. While agreeing with you about 'secondary', have you noticed these: Rev 14:3 144,000 Jewish male virgins who witness during the tribulation. No white robes. No crowns. They can learn a new song [of praise] that no one else can. They follow the Lord wherever he goes.Rev 6:11 Rev 7:9, 14-17 Tribulation saints - unsaved before the harpazo, but saved during the tribulation. They have white robes and hold palm branches. No crowns. No new song that no one else can learn. The other stuff in blue above is their function.Rev 4:4 T he 24 elders have thrones, dressed in white and have crowns.Rev 12:5 Rev 2:27-28 1 Pet 5:4 The pre-Trib saints. Harpazo'd. Given a crown of glory. Rule the nations with the Lord's rod of iron. Given the morning star.From these passages, it appears that although our Lord does not have 'secondary citizens'; he does have clear distinctions between people. They perform different tasks, and are 'uniformed' according to their classification (in the sense of their rewards and duties). |
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 6, 2017 21:23:12 GMT -6
David, I am fairly certain the tribulation hasnt officially begun, however I could be wrong. What I am asking you to answer is how can you interpret Revelation as linear when chapter 12:1-2 happened on 9/23. There is no need for me to provide a timeline for that to be answered. Are you aware of what occurred in the stars on 9/23? Mike let it go. the churches, seals, trumpets and vials are in chronological order... With different exact timelines and time frames... Different chapters explain the details... it is not linear verse to verse as you are trying to say or accuse me of saying. Mike, its your guysd theory that Revleation is the Start of Tribulation, not mine. You are suppose to state why in the Heavenly behind the scenes it apparently started the Great Tribulation and all those events did not happen on Earth. Thanks... And do consider making a timeline to show your theory, so we can have a look at it. It will only take about a half hour. If a simple one, maybe ten mintues |
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 6, 2017 21:26:34 GMT -6
Saying Christians are a subset of anyone is not scripturial..... there are no secondary citizens in heaven, no secondary grafted on branches, inferior to original branches. The Messiah has not got two different sets of people, only ONE. Thats literal and thats verifiable. This substitution into Christians of non Christians is not Christian. We are ONE, so lets win the other ones so we will ALL be one. But if you differ, show us where Jews are preferred over Christians, or where they in their disbelief and inexperience can be more useful to the Messiah than us, Christians that have followed the Lord and learned from the Lord. GAO David I shall await your verses and words, so we can continue our discussion. While agreeing with you about 'secondary', have you noticed these: Rev 14:3 144,000 Jewish male virgins who witness during the tribulation. No white robes. No crowns. They can learn a new song [of praise] that no one else can. They follow the Lord wherever he goes.Rev 6:11 Rev 7:9, 14-17 Tribulation saints - unsaved before the harpazo, but saved during the tribulation. They have white robes and hold palm branches. No crowns. No new song that no one else can learn. The other stuff in blue above is their function.Rev 4:4 T he 24 elders have thrones, dressed in white and have crowns.Rev 12:5 Rev 2:27-28 1 Pet 5:4 The pre-Trib saints. Harpazo'd. Given a crown of glory. Rule the nations with the Lord's rod of iron. Given the morning star.From these passages, it appears that although our Lord does not have 'secondary citizens'; he does have clear distinctions between people. They perform different tasks, and are 'uniformed' according to their classification (in the sense of their rewards and duties). Bro, do consider summarizing your point and then post a scripture, explain the application to your summary and then move to another verse if you choose. Above you dont explain yourself that well, as it just appears to be different verses without any logical point you are trying to make. I think you are attemptin=to say the 144,000 are Jews with no experience and no past faith who are the 144,00o, so do consider expanding your thoughts and make your claim so I can answer without guessing ewhat you are trying to prove. GBY David (TRT) |
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 6, 2017 21:30:46 GMT -6
Now dont get offended Bro..I mean Yardstick Bro...
Your comment 'While agreeing with you about 'secondary', have you noticed these:"
isnt clear
Are you saying we are One, and us Christians are the same as Jewish people, no difference, no special priviledges for either, one salvation and thats Jesus ONLY. You arent being clear, you must be able to see that. Its vague.... and what am I suppose to notice, you are suppose to make me notice something through explanations of your verses. Thanks, I will answer you more completely once you explain your vagueness.
LIJ
David
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Post by Natalie on Dec 6, 2017 21:44:42 GMT -6
I didn't find him vague...He explained how different groups of people have different things they do. You can tell the difference in them by what they are wearing or what they are doing...some are Jews and some are Christians.
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Post by yardstick on Dec 6, 2017 21:55:43 GMT -6
davidjayjordan Ah, I see you appreciate bluntness. I will be more direct: The passages I quoted are some examples of clear distinctions between people during the millennial reign. Each group of people has received different rewards, wear different 'uniforms' and serve the Lord in different ways. The blue italicized text was there to distill out the differences for comparison. My summary was split in half: the first part was before the examples, the second part, after. When put together, my post could be summarized as: "I agree with you about 'secondary citizens'; however, according to the scriptures quoted, there are different groups of people. They are not the same in the sense of the capacity they have, though they are the same in the sense of their salvation." I hope this is clearer.
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 7, 2017 7:47:31 GMT -6
Not much.... can I ask that you be more specific.
Are Jewish people better than us ?
Do they have special qualities ?
Do they have special ways they can access salvation from the Messiah, not available to us Gentiles ?
Are we one or two ?
I just cant figure out what you mean by ..I agree with you about secondary citizens....
Are we Gentiles secondary citizens, or all we the same and equal citizens of the kingdom.
Does bloodlines have a bearing, and should we trust in our parentage for special treatment, or special conditions or special types of salvation ?
The substitution theory I am hearing in prophecy suggests to me, that most espouse the idea that newbie Jews will instantly get saved and instantly have faith and courage when we supposedly leave and get Raptured. If that is your theory as well, can you explain why and how these Jewish substitutes of ours will get saved when we are gone and why they would do the job better than we Christians that are HERE ?
Fair question and questions I reckon..
Merry Christmas......
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 7, 2017 7:52:35 GMT -6
I didn't find him vague...He explained how different groups of people have different things they do. You can tell the difference in them by what they are wearing or what they are doing...some are Jews and some are Christians. Do you mean, there are Jewish people in heaven that dont have the white robes of salvation, given to them by the Messiah. Wow, I have never heard of that one before. Do you mean, Jews dont have to receive salvation because they have their own independant and different Saviour or dont need a Saviour because of their heritage. You mean Jesus didnt die for them..... and they can make it via their own righteousness. Are you sure thats Christianity ? I thought Jesus died for ALL, Jews and Gentiles... and besides I thought anyone whether Muslim or Jewish etc that received the Messiah, is then deemed a Christian and no longer a Muslim or Jew ? Your doctrine is getting rather confusing and very different than main stream Christianity, dont you think ? |
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Post by mike on Dec 7, 2017 12:56:39 GMT -6
Locked
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