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Post by mike on Nov 28, 2017 9:21:52 GMT -6
Sorry Natalie but I have to chime in and address boraddict on rule #1 as well as there is a piece missing in the analysis as well as scriptural item I would like for her to confirm for us. Views on the timing of the rapture differ and discussion on those is very beneficial to all. "Pre", "Mid" & "Post" are the most common with a few variants of "mid" in the mix (that we won't get into here). However, I am interested to see where in scripture you derive that there are 3 separate raptures as you note in the quote below. I would also like to know where you arrive at the Northwest US when 1 Thes 4:17 tells us we are caught to the air with the Lord. I believe we have touched on this point elsewhere boraddict and noted that whether someone is looking, watching or waiting is not the criteria to be caught up. The criteria is faith in the atonement of Christ, period. |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 29, 2017 0:07:35 GMT -6
Thank you Mike. I need a few days to answer this properly and not off the cuff.
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 6, 2017 2:26:05 GMT -6
Yes I have some comments, if allowed, as I differ greatly. First its unclear what tribulation period he is writing about... but this must be the original document that almost all of you are referring to as, the one that designates 9/23 as supposedly the Start of the GREAT TRIBULATION. IE 3.5 years before our Lords SECOND Coming.... rather than 7 years before His COMING. So to make a long story short, Yes what the heck are we doing in heaven when we are suppose to be working and serving the Lord down HERE. Were kings and priests and judges in the Millinium not in the Tribulation period. The author has his periods mixed up badly. Why would the Lord rapture Christians when they are the ones that are faithful and experienced and know HIS VOICE and obediantly FOLLOW. That makes no sense at all. Rapture Christians and then turn things over to those that have no faith, no experience, no trust. Its illogical as well as being unscripturial. I have posted many many verses and chapters that show we go through the Trib and GREAT TRIB with our Christian prophets..... so rather than thinking or believeing we are going to escape ever having to go through any hardships or ever get tested... is escapism if you ask me. Its easy enough to believe because it means we dont have to be prepared, and we can dream about heavenly pleasures etc.... even before we have ever served the Lord. Sorry in truth, thats an escapism theology.... Blame me if you like for saying BUCK UP, and face the reality of having to finally serve the Lord and face some hardships and sacrifices..... but Jesus said it over and over and over again.... If any man will follow me, let me DENY HIMSELF or herself and take up His CROSS DAILY, Forsake all and follow HIM to the ends of the world til the end of our lives... Thats Christianity..... rapturing prematurely.... is not.. www.davidjayjordan.com/Anti-ChristbeforeJesusReturn.htmletc etc etc etc etc etc.... Give an answer to him that asketh thee... I have... |
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Post by witness1 on Dec 6, 2017 8:27:51 GMT -6
You say that it doesn't make sense to rapture Christians and then turn things over to those who have no faith, yet on a different thread you state: "Age makes no difference, a child can lead us, a new converted heathen can lead us, so called original branches have no priority whatsoever especially if they didnt know their Father, or His SON..." Read more: unsealed.boards.net/thread/410/woman-child#ixzz50ULkIIYrSo can a new, converted heathen lead or not? I would say yes. So this means that it absolutely COULD make sense to rapture Christians and then "turn things over" to those who are new believers. If there is a pre-trib rapture, should we be in heaven saying, "Oh no! God shouldn't have taken us! He needs us!" How preposterous! If there is a pre-trib rapture, those left behind will have His written, living, word; the 2 witnesses; and mountains of evidence left from those who were harpazo-ed. Since when are things "turned over" into the hands of men anyway? Is the world now under the care of those of us who are faithful and experienced and know His voice? Look around... those of us who obediently follow the Lord to the best of our human ability are still living in a very broken place. So while I am open to the possibility of a pre-wrath rapture, it would not be based on the supposition that a pre-trib rapture doesn't "make sense". Also, it also sounds a bit inconsiderate and presumptuous to say that we need to finally serve the Lord and face some hardships and sacrifices since you don't know what any of us do or have done in the Lord's service. I likewise am not going to move to a pre-wrath rapture stance on the basis of "finally making sacrifices", when I have been obedient to follow His voice and sacrifice in the ways He has asked me so far and repent when I have failed. Why would the Lord rapture Christians when they are the ones that are faithful and experienced and know HIS VOICE and obediantly FOLLOW. That makes no sense at all. Rapture Christians and then turn things over to those that have no faith, no experience, no trust. Its illogical as well as being unscripturial. Blame me if you like for saying BUCK UP, and face the reality of having to finally serve the Lord and face some hardships and sacrifices..... but Jesus said it over and over and over again.... If any man will follow me, let me DENY HIMSELF or herself and take up His CROSS DAILY, Forsake all and follow HIM to the ends of the world til the end of our lives... |
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 6, 2017 8:48:40 GMT -6
You say that it doesn't make sense to rapture Christians and then turn things over to those who have no faith, yet on a different thread you state: "Age makes no difference, a child can lead us, a new converted heathen can lead us, so called original branches have no priority whatsoever especially if they didnt know their Father, or His SON..." Read more: unsealed.boards.net/thread/410/woman-child#ixzz50ULkIIYrSo can a new, converted heathen lead or not? I would say yes. So this means that it absolutely COULD make sense to rapture Christians and then "turn things over" to those who are new believers. If there is a pre-trib rapture, should we be in heaven saying, "Oh no! God shouldn't have taken us! He needs us!" How preposterous! If there is a pre-trib rapture, those left behind will have His written, living, word; the 2 witnesses; and mountains of evidence left from those who were harpazo-ed. Since when are things "turned over" into the hands of men anyway? Is the world now under the care of those of us who are faithful and experienced and know His voice? Look around... those of us who obediently follow the Lord to the best of our human ability are still living in a very broken place. So while I am open to the possibility of a pre-wrath rapture, it would not be based on the supposition that a pre-trib rapture doesn't "make sense". Also, it also sounds a bit inconsiderate and presumptuous to say that we need to finally serve the Lord and face some hardships and sacrifices since you don't know what any of us do or have done in the Lord's service. I likewise am not going to move to a pre-wrath rapture stance on the basis of "finally making sacrifices", when I have been obedient to follow His voice and sacrifice in the ways He has asked me so far and repent when I have failed. Why would the Lord rapture Christians when they are the ones that are faithful and experienced and know HIS VOICE and obediantly FOLLOW. That makes no sense at all. Rapture Christians and then turn things over to those that have no faith, no experience, no trust. Its illogical as well as being unscripturial. Blame me if you like for saying BUCK UP, and face the reality of having to finally serve the Lord and face some hardships and sacrifices..... but Jesus said it over and over and over again.... If any man will follow me, let me DENY HIMSELF or herself and take up His CROSS DAILY, Forsake all and follow HIM to the ends of the world til the end of our lives... Good loophole find .....Watcher, excellent which means you are trying to debate and find an excuse or loophole to put the inexperienced newbie Jewish people into our positions in the End Time. But as an world class athlete, I would say, you want some experience around you in the BIG GAME, in the ULTIMATE TEST, in the FINAL BATTLE. You want to be able to trust your team mates , your brethren. You want them to have been there with you via training and other battles, You want to know they will not turn til and RUN.... but are faithful TRIED and proven and tested and have come out as pure refined gold (Please look up verses on testing and gold and refining, and sacrifice, and maturity). These are the ones the COACH puts on the floor, he doesn;t put newbies or babes into the Battle or Game. If they have grown quickly, as any real open hearted person can grow extremely QUICKLY, then if in testing they have shown reliability and skill and courage and spirit, and team work and effort and FAITH in the COACH and TEAM, then put those tried and tested babes who are no longer babes into the mix and onto the BATTLEFIELD... for mere ag Amen But nice try at your loophole effort, for age is not determined by days but by receptivity and the willingness to give their lives fully to the COACH and TEAM... JESUS Take some more free shots on the side line, before the Coach will trust you, and put you in.... just be willing to start at any level and then progress up, even if you have to be in scrimmages on the practice team. The real tried and tested mature in SPIRIT and Faith and GUTS make it on the FINAL BATTLE GROUND.. The weak kneed ones will surely have split and run or at least run in their minds..for they have no heart for the fray. |
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Post by Natalie on Dec 6, 2017 8:54:04 GMT -6
I am going to ask again - What do you see is the purpose of the last 7 years?
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 6, 2017 21:04:17 GMT -6
Yes do answer that question Natalie... what is the purpose of getting raptured before anyone has even fought ? I can answer it as the Lord goes over this principle over and over and over again.
Its to prove that Jesus was right, people will follow Him and LOVE all their lives and fight to the death for others and for the cause and for the Lord. They are proven soldiers of the cross, who never give up and weren't whoosies. They answerd the Shofar and the timing when needed and didnt shirk their responsibilities with excuses and day dreams.
The Lord tests us, tests our meddle or metal to see if we will get the medals for bravery, or if our faith was pretense and bravado.
to enter the city of gold, we have to be refined and refine our own gold as all the scriptures stated.
We have to have been through the wars and come out successful or died trying. We are not suppose to be all talk and no action...
The Lord wants experienced trained loving obedient humble soldiers of the cross, lovers of the lost, feeders of the poor, encouragers of those in prison.... unafraid like Joshua and Caleb.... those that belief and go forward rather than backward in fear and trembling.. And please dont say I have to prove that, as it is a given, and easily searched and researched by any that have had to live and face life, unless they have been pampered and want to stay pampered.
Jesus called us to battle the enemy... not run from the enemy.
IJN Amen ?
David
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 6, 2017 21:39:02 GMT -6
You say that it doesn't make sense to rapture Christians and then turn things over to those who have no faith, yet on a different thread you state: "Age makes no difference, a child can lead us, a new converted heathen can lead us, so called original branches have no priority whatsoever especially if they didnt know their Father, or His SON..." Read more: unsealed.boards.net/thread/410/woman-child#ixzz50ULkIIYrSo can a new, converted heathen lead or not? I would say yes. So this means that it absolutely COULD make sense to rapture Christians and then "turn things over" to those who are new believers. If there is a pre-trib rapture, should we be in heaven saying, "Oh no! God shouldn't have taken us! He needs us!" How preposterous! If there is a pre-trib rapture, those left behind will have His written, living, word; the 2 witnesses; and mountains of evidence left from those who were harpazo-ed. Since when are things "turned over" into the hands of men anyway? Is the world now under the care of those of us who are faithful and experienced and know His voice? Look around... those of us who obediently follow the Lord to the best of our human ability are still living in a very broken place. So while I am open to the possibility of a pre-wrath rapture, it would not be based on the supposition that a pre-trib rapture doesn't "make sense". Also, it also sounds a bit inconsiderate and presumptuous to say that we need to finally serve the Lord and face some hardships and sacrifices since you don't know what any of us do or have done in the Lord's service. I likewise am not going to move to a pre-wrath rapture stance on the basis of "finally making sacrifices", when I have been obedient to follow His voice and sacrifice in the ways He has asked me so far and repent when I have failed. Did King David use regular soldiers or HIS ELITE MIGHTY MEN to lead. Would a wise leader, use an inexperienced novice to lead, NO Or have a whole rookie army to represent HIM... Answer NO.
Did a young David, use suppose weapons rather than his tried and tested and successful weapons (sling and rocks) upon killing the bear and lion ...... when faced with Goliath. NO
Did young Joan of Arc come out of nowhere. NO.... she had a background of victories and emitted faith and courage rather than fear and cowardice as with most rookie soldiers.
But whatever you are just searching for an excuse to say the Lord would use a bunch of unbelievers and rookies to lead His ARMY. No offense thats l*******s
The 1444,000 are experienced brave courageous Christians not newbies. But if you want to follow rookies rather than veterans, thats your choice, I would say that is a poor choice. Jesus doesnt make poor choices. |
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Post by Natalie on Dec 6, 2017 21:39:33 GMT -6
so, you aren't going to answer my question?
What question of yours did you want me to answer? Why I believe in a pre-trib rapture? I'll gladly answer that, but you go first because I asked first.
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 6, 2017 21:45:30 GMT -6
Natalie, go up and read my post ABOVE. I answered you...and so await your answer... What is the purpose of the LAST 7 Years or your theory that we get Raptured before any trouble starts.
And do consider not writing such a harsh statement as SO, you aren;t going to answer my question ?
I mean I have lots of people to answer, and always try to do so, even though they usualy have not read any of my previous answers or hyperlinks or seen my timeline or verses. Usually such statements are one sided. remember debates are TWO SIDED not one sided i***************s. Thanks
I slowly and patiently await your answer or any pre trib person who wants to answer for you
IHS
David
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Post by Natalie on Dec 6, 2017 21:52:13 GMT -6
I apologize, as my tone is coming across wrong. I was just expecting some Scripture verses as the Bible does explain what the last 7 years are for.
But isn't what you described happening right now? There are people who are following Jesus and being killed for it. More Christians have been martyred in the last couple of years than ever before. Where does it say that the last seven years are to purify Christians for the Kingdom?
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 7, 2017 7:56:52 GMT -6
I apologize, as my tone is coming across wrong. I was just expecting some Scripture verses as the Bible does explain what the last 7 years are for. But isn't what you described happening right now? There are people who are following Jesus and being killed for it. More Christians have been martyred in the last couple of years than ever before. Where does it say that the last seven years are to purify Christians for the Kingdom? Now Natalie, dont evade the question ? What do you think the last 7 years are for. What do you think the bible says, these 7 years are for ? This would be especially interesting, seeing you think you get Raptured soon and before the end. So if that be your interpretation.. then what is the Last 7 years for.... for us people that are living in the Last 7 years ? Fair question. I answerd, it would be great if you also answered. Thanks |
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 7, 2017 7:59:06 GMT -6
I apologize, as my tone is coming across wrong. I was just expecting some Scripture verses as the Bible does explain what the last 7 years are for. But isn't what you described happening right now? There are people who are following Jesus and being killed for it. More Christians have been martyred in the last couple of years than ever before. Where does it say that the last seven years are to purify Christians for the Kingdom? Daniel 11..... Psalms, proverbs, all the prophets, Jesus... New Testament Old Testament. Now there I go answering your questions without you answering mine. |
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 7, 2017 8:02:07 GMT -6
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.... who knows their God, Christians, who goes to the end. Christians.... who doesnt get deceived knowledgeable Christians
Have you never read Daniel, hasnt anyone read Daniel ?
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Post by boraddict on Dec 7, 2017 12:38:44 GMT -6
Why the heated debate? It seems that we are in the pre-tribulation period of time and the full blown tribulation is right around the corner.
Is the tribulation only upon the people of the world and not upon the saints of God? No. Thus, the tribulation is upon some of the saints of God now; however, we are not yet in the final seven years.
Thus, after the seven years then Lord Jesus rules and there is peace for 1,000 years.
The seven years is the transitional period in which Satan is bound and he can no longer torment mankind. The first 3.5 is Satan's final push for world domination, and the second 3.5 is rule under Lord Jesus in which the world at large rebels.
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