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Post by rev12ministries on Oct 19, 2017 23:41:12 GMT -6
Eric Broome here with Revelation 12 Ministries. New to this forum and just wanted to share a thought on the third temple. Although many believe the third temple will be built (or at least started) sometime prior to the pretribulation rapture, I do not believe it will be constructed until the first half of Daniel's 70th Week. (Keep in mind that nowhere is it stated or even implied that the rapture begins the 7-year countdown; many scholars have mentioned the possibility of a gap of days, weeks, months, or even several years between the rapture of the church taking place and the Antichrist rising in power to confirm the covenant that begins the final seven years. All that to say, the AC does NOT have to be revealed, the 10 kings/horns in place, or the 3rd Temple even started for the rapture to take place - there will be plenty of time for that after the church has "left the building.") I believe the seven-year covenant will be made by the Antichrist specifically for this purpose, and, once completed, will take over the temple and declare himself God. The language of Revelation 11:1-2 references the "measuring" of the temple which seems to indicate the surveying and layout of the construction site; similar to that of Ezekiel 40 which gives the specifications for constructing the millennial temple after Christ returns. This leads me to the question: Who are the two witnesses? I believe the Bible is very clear as to who these individuals are and calls them by name: Joshua the high priest, the prophet like unto Moses (Acts 3:22-23; John 1:20-21); and Zerubbabel who, like John the Baptist, will come in the power and spirit of Elijah (Zechariah 4:1-14; Haggai 2:20-23; Isaiah 49:5-6). Many speculate that they will be Enoch and Elijah, or Moses and Elijah. However, if we consider the context of Zechariah's prophetic vision (from 1:7 - 6:15), it is clear that these prophecies specifically concern the time of the end, not the Babylonian captivity. Further, we must also realize that there are not just two individuals in view, but four. Both of these prophets will be "double anointed" much like Elisha had a double portion of the spirit of Elijah. In fact, Elisha is a type and shadow of the two witnesses. This is why Rev. 11:3 uses the following language: "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." The anointing flows from the Holy Spirit by way of the two olive trees (the two anointed ones) that will stand before the Lord in heaven (see Zechariah 4:11-14). Based on the miracles described in Rev. 11:5-6, I believe the two olive trees (anointed ones) are Moses and Elijah. But there are also two candlesticks. These will be two "double anointed" prophets located on the earth and will prophesy the first 3.5 years (1260 days) of Daniels' 70th Week per Rev. 11:3. I believe Zechariah's prophetic vision (chapters 3 and 4) identify the two candlesticks as Joshua (priest) and Zerubbabel (governor/ruler/king). Concerning Joshua:
- Notice, like the body of Moses, Satan is rebuked in Zech. 3:2 (cf. Jude 9).
- They ask John the Baptist three questions: Are you the Christ, are you Elijah, or are you "that other prophet?" (John 1:20-21). Who, then, is this "other prophet," the prophet like unto Moses, if not Joshua the high priest - the Levite? (see Deuteronomy 18:15-22; Acts 3:22-23).
- Compare the imagery of Zech. 3:1-5, 7-8 with the 24 elders of Rev. 4:4: the change of raiment (iniquity/sin is passed), the crown (mitre), those that sit before him who are "men wondered at."
- Joshua is given the cornerstone with the seven-eyes (spirits of God) (v. 9; cf. 4:10).
Concerning Zerubbabel:
- Notice that Zechariah here receives a similar word from the Lord as that of Zacharias, John the Baptist's father (Zech. 4:6; cf. Luke 1:13-17).
- Jesus' own words show that it does not necessarily have to be Elijah himself who comes to fulfill Malachi 4:5 (see Matthew 11:12-14; 17:10-13).
- After the war of Gog and Magog, the Lord says he will use Zerubbabel as His signet for he is chosen (Haggai 2:20-23; cf. Ezekiel 38:19-20; 39:20).
- Zerubbabel will lead the building of the third temple (Zech. 4:7-10).
- Who despised the day of small things?; is it a light thing? (Zech. 4:10; cf. Isaiah 49:5-6).
After the Babylonian Captivity, Joshua and Zerubabbel led a remnant of Israelites to turn back to God and finish the rebuilding of the temple. Therefore, it seems obvious to me that Joshua and Zerubbabel are the two "double anointed" prophets named in Zechariah's vision who will be the two witnesses/ candlesticks anointed by the Holy Spirit as well as the two olive trees ( Moses and Elijah). They will do the same thing during the first half of Daniel's 70th Week until they are overtaken and assassinated by the Antichrist and his armies. There's my take on it. The identity of the two witnesses has been right in front of our face all along. Like everything else in the book of Revelation, we must dig in the Old Testament matching Scripture with Scripture to find the correct interpretations and understanding. -Blessings, keep looking up and study on! Eric www.TheFinalHarbinger.comwww.Revelation12Ministries.comEmail: eric@r12m.com |
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Post by whatif on Oct 20, 2017 0:07:47 GMT -6
Welcome to the forum, rev12ministries! I'm so glad you've joined us! You bring up a very intriguing possibility here about the 2 witnesses!
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Post by MikeTaft on Oct 20, 2017 4:45:08 GMT -6
Welcome Eric! Thank you for taking the time to present this information. The two witnesses is definitely a highly debated topic. I will have to read more into the scriptures you provided when I'm not running of to work. Grace & Blessings brother!
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Post by nana on Oct 20, 2017 6:10:41 GMT -6
I believe the 2 are Elijah and Enoch
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Post by mike on Oct 20, 2017 8:19:48 GMT -6
rev12ministriesEric, welcome and thanks for the synopsis. I'm a little slow sometimes, but the way I read what you wrote it almost sounds like 4 witnesses?
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Post by kjs on Oct 20, 2017 15:12:13 GMT -6
Here are a couple of scriptures which seem to imply that there is a coming division point where God’s focus will switch from the Body Of Christ, back to Israel.
Micah 5:
3 Therefore that ruler (God/Jesus) will abandon them (Israel) until the woman in labor gives birth. Then the rest of his countrymen will return to the Israelis.”
Romans 11:
25 A partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (ESV).
Luke 21:
24 “Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” (ESV).
Now we are not told specifically whether this “change of focus” will be a gradual change or whether it will be a sudden change.
Based on the Micah passage (woman in labor) and the rapture passages (twinkling of eye, thief in night); it appears to me these will be “sudden changes” …. If this is true – then it appears God’s focus will be changed suddenly as well.
While this does not guarantee that the 70th week starts immediately after the Rapture – it does seem to suggest that the 70th week starts – shortly after (I suspect probably within a one year timeframe at the latest and most likely within a six month time frame at the earliest).
Moving on to the witnesses….
Do you really think it will be the actual (Moses, Elijah, Enoch, (whatever past character))
OR do you suspect – it will be a “New Individual” who comes “in the Likeness of …..”
IF it is a new individual – then that person or persons … will need to be born and grown to 30ish before their start. {and if this is true – and we suspect we are in the final days – then they are alive now}.
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Post by Rick on Oct 21, 2017 0:29:04 GMT -6
Here are a couple of scriptures which seem to imply that there is a coming division point where God’s focus will switch from the Body Of Christ, back to Israel. Micah 5: 3 Therefore that ruler (God/Jesus) will abandon them (Israel) until the woman in labor gives birth. Then the rest of his countrymen will return to the Israelis.”Romans 11: 25 A partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (ESV).Luke 21: 24 “Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” (ESV). Now we are not told specifically whether this “change of focus” will be a gradual change or whether it will be a sudden change. Based on the Micah passage (woman in labor) and the rapture passages (twinkling of eye, thief in night); it appears to me these will be “sudden changes” …. If this is true – then it appears God’s focus will be changed suddenly as well. While this does not guarantee that the 70th week starts immediately after the Rapture – it does seem to suggest that the 70th week starts – shortly after (I suspect probably within a one year timeframe at the latest and most likely within a six month time frame at the earliest). Moving on to the witnesses…. Do you really think it will be the actual (Moses, Elijah, Enoch, (whatever past character)) OR do you suspect – it will be a “New Individual” who comes “in the Likeness of …..” IF it is a new individual – then that person or persons … will need to be born and grown to 30ish before their start. {and if this is true – and we suspect we are in the final days – then they are alive now}. Hey kjs, very simply I believe it is Enoch and Elijah in the flesh and Mosses and Elisha in spirit thus the two Olive Tress, and the two Candle Sticks. God tells us that it is appointed unto man to die once, Mosses and Elisha have died, God and Satan even fought over the body of Mosses. Enoch and Elisha never experienced a physical death. Just my thoughts. God Bless~ Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. |
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Post by Rick on Oct 21, 2017 0:31:47 GMT -6
Welcome Eric, so nice to have you here brother and thanks so much for sharing
God Bless~
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
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Post by Rick on Oct 21, 2017 0:39:49 GMT -6
Here are a couple of scriptures which seem to imply that there is a coming division point where God’s focus will switch from the Body Of Christ, back to Israel. Micah 5: 3 Therefore that ruler (God/Jesus) will abandon them (Israel) until the woman in labor gives birth. Then the rest of his countrymen will return to the Israelis.”Romans 11: 25 A partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (ESV).Luke 21: 24 “Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” (ESV). Now we are not told specifically whether this “change of focus” will be a gradual change or whether it will be a sudden change. Based on the Micah passage (woman in labor) and the rapture passages (twinkling of eye, thief in night); it appears to me these will be “sudden changes” …. If this is true – then it appears God’s focus will be changed suddenly as well. Hey kjs , I believe your are correct, when the church is gone, ("caught up") God's attention will once again be on Israel and her people. The 3 passages you quoted point to that very fact. God Bless~ Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 21, 2017 6:59:59 GMT -6
Hello Rev12Ministries.
Welcome to the forum, brother. So glad you've joined us. It's a very interesting thread, by the way. ;-)
I totally agree - 100% with you on the part about the Tribulation. There's some really great threads where people are also sharing and comparing their ideas on this same topic. ;-)
I agree that Scripture doesn't say that the Temple has to be built, or the AC revealed, or the Treaty signed before the Rapture. I also am with you that all these things will take place after the Harpazo event. - Whenever that is.
Many people with different rapture theories ( when it will happen - on a Feast day or Not, warning or no warning, heard by all, or only heard by Christians, and so on,) believe that there will be some gap - maybe a few days, maybe a few months.
There is likely a gap, - from a logistical standpoint, it makes sense, but scripture is not explicitly clear. My personal theory is that the gap will be very short. World wide chaos and panic, will require a leader to bring peace.
In the same way, like kjs said, it could be a person living today. Whether they are American, or Jewish, or alive today or Adam and Eve, it doesn't change the role they will have, nor does their identity affect the timing of the rapture.
In other words, knowing their identity or not, doesn't change the length of the Tribulation, or when it starts.
We just know that from scripture, the Godzilla Brothers will do incredible miracles, and that they will prophesy for 1260 days, in the first part of the Tribulation.
By this, we know that the Tribulation didn't already start at some random day - July 4th, or Labor day, or Feast of Trumpets.
While we can guess, and speculate, the strongest clues from scripture are for Enoch and Elijah, and it's interesting that this was the unanimous view by the Early Church fathers.
"I think it is interesting that this was the unanimous opinion of the Church Fathers during the first three hundred years of the Church. All of them identified the two witnesses in their writings as Enoch and Elijah. One, by the name of Haymo who served as the bishop of Halberstadt (840-853 AD), even quotes a version of Malachi 4:5 as stating that both Enoch and Elijah will appear before the day of the Lord. Our modern versions mention only Elijah." Here's a very good link. christinprophecy.org/articles/the-two-witnesses/ and another excellent article that gives more detail, clues. www.prophecyforum.com/witnesses.html
Very strong scriptural evidence also states that Elijah will appear. Mal. 3:1-3; 4:5-6
Malachi 4:5-6 English Standard Version (ESV)
5 “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome Day of the Lord comes. 6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."
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Post by MikeTaft on Oct 22, 2017 18:40:27 GMT -6
Hello Rev12Ministries.
Welcome to the forum, brother. So glad you've joined us. It's a very interesting thread, by the way. ;-)
I totally agree - 100% with you on the part about the Tribulation. There's some really great threads where people are also sharing and comparing their ideas on this same topic. ;-)
I agree that Scripture doesn't say that the Temple has to be built, or the AC revealed, or the Treaty signed before the Rapture. I also am with you that all these things will take place after the Harpazo event. - Whenever that is.
Many people with different rapture theories ( when it will happen - on a Feast day or Not, warning or no warning, heard by all, or only heard by Christians, and so on,) believe that there will be some gap - maybe a few days, maybe a few months.
There is likely a gap, - from a logistical standpoint, it makes sense, but scripture is not explicitly clear. My personal theory is that the gap will be very short. World wide chaos and panic, will require a leader to bring peace.
In the same way, like kjs said, it could be a person living today. Whether they are American, or Jewish, or alive today or Adam and Eve, it doesn't change the role they will have, nor does their identity affect the timing of the rapture.
In other words, knowing their identity or not, doesn't change the length of the Tribulation, or when it starts.
We just know that from scripture, the Godzilla Brothers will do incredible miracles, and that they will prophesy for 1260 days, in the first part of the Tribulation.
By this, we know that the Tribulation didn't already start at some random day - July 4th, or Labor day, or Feast of Trumpets.
While we can guess, and speculate, the strongest clues from scripture are for Enoch and Elijah, and it's interesting that this was the unanimous view by the Early Church fathers.
"I think it is interesting that this was the unanimous opinion of the Church Fathers during the first three hundred years of the Church. All of them identified the two witnesses in their writings as Enoch and Elijah. One, by the name of Haymo who served as the bishop of Halberstadt (840-853 AD), even quotes a version of Malachi 4:5 as stating that both Enoch and Elijah will appear before the day of the Lord. Our modern versions mention only Elijah." Here's a very good link. christinprophecy.org/articles/the-two-witnesses/ and another excellent article that gives more detail, clues. www.prophecyforum.com/witnesses.html
Very strong scriptural evidence also states that Elijah will appear. Mal. 3:1-3; 4:5-6
Malachi 4:5-6 English Standard Version (ESV)
5 “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome Day of the Lord comes. 6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."
Well it's clear Elijah will be one of the two witnesses, but the other remains a mystery whether Moses, Enoch, Zerubabel, or Joshua. Whoever it may be. My question is will it be the spirit of them, or them personally? My reasoning is that John the Baptist was equated as Elijah by Jesus (Matthew 11:14) and John was not Elijah himself (or was he? lol). As you said disciple4life it will be very evident when these two guys come on the scene. Especially when they can breath fire and cause plagues to fall on the nations just by speaking it. They won't be very appreciated by the world. I have yet to see these guys in the lame stream media as of yet. |
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Post by mike on Oct 23, 2017 19:20:21 GMT -6
MikeTaftWhen I was reading this: I thought for a minute, "could this for breathing and played be a metaphor". Like fire could be military, plates the result of war, but then I read the whole section for context Yeah the bodies in the street, and raising from the dead thing... Yeah that's not a metaphor
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Post by boraddict on Nov 30, 2017 7:05:16 GMT -6
I just wanted to mention that there are three speakers in the Book of Revelation, in my opinion that is. In Chapter 11, the speakers are as follows:
v. 1 John and the angel
v. 2 the angel
v. 3 Lord Jesus speaking about John and the angel
v. 4-13 narrative from John
I think the problem in understanding this arises from a belief that the angel can not die. If I were to say Elijah who ascended into heaven is still at some point subject to death then Elijah could be an angel in the Book of Revelation that dies in Jerusalem. However, it is not Elijah that is the angel but Michael from Dan. Chapter 12. He had the honor of being the first man upon the earth, Adam. I have absolutely no proof of this and it is purely my speculation.
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Post by mike on Nov 30, 2017 9:02:32 GMT -6
I just wanted to mention that there are three speakers in the Book of Revelation, in my opinion that is. In Chapter 11, the speakers are as follows: v. 1 John and the angel v. 2 the angel v. 3 Lord Jesus speaking about John and the angel v. 4-13 narrative from John I think the problem in understanding this arises from a belief that the angel can not die. If I were to say Elijah who ascended into heaven is still at some point subject to death then Elijah could be an angel in the Book of Revelation that dies in Jerusalem. However, it is not Elijah that is the angel but Michael from Dan. Chapter 12. He had the honor of being the first man upon the earth, Adam. I have absolutely no proof of this and it is purely my speculation. boraddict-the above is straight doctrine from LDS which no longer makes this your opinion or speculation. I understand that its possible you are Mormon or have some background in the LDS church but please understand that it is not biblically sound information that is perpetuated and with that I would ask that you no longer "speculate" with LDS information. If you are going to cite it as you did above, please label it as such. |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 30, 2017 9:36:21 GMT -6
That is a good observation but not correct. I doubt that the LDS church could think so far as to make the conclusions that I have made. They follow a false prophet and believe every word of his to be scripture.
So you are in error to conclude this. I however do know the LDS church very well. I understand the doctrine and some major technical errors such as their two types of leadership first that of being led by a prophet and secondly being led by 12 apostles. They have combined the two to being led by apostles that are prophets.
That is, I know their doctrine better than they do. It is a false doctrine that is out of line with sound principles of logic. However, it is a doctrine worthy of study. Just as the Jehovah Witnesses, Calvary, and others are worthy of study.
However, please do not confuse my analysis with LDS doctrine because it is not.
They oppose my analysis more than you because it did not come from their prophet.
Post Script: My point in using Michael from Daniel Chapter 12 was to show my belief in an non-provable truth. That is, I believe it; however, it is not provable.
The reason that I believe it is because I believe John to have been the Angel of the Lord's presence from the Old Testament. This is not LDS doctrine and they haven't a clue what it means.
Nevertheless, If John is the Angel of the Lord's presence, a doctrine that I am reluctant to share (not LDS), then it logically stands that Michael might have been Adam. That is, if the flow of first person is forward in time, then the the flow of the second person can also be forward in time. That is the basis of my conclusion and it is not LDS doctrine. Call anyone LDS and they will have no clue as to what I am saying.
So please do not black ball my analysis as being LDS.
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